Streamsong, I'm starting to

[Patrick_Mucci]

like the Red course a little more, but, I still love the Blue course.

I recently took three fellows to Streamsong who had never been there before.

They loved it.

When we were talking about the course, one theme, which transcended both courses, seemed to prevail.

Variety and fun

The opinions seemed consistent.

The par 3's were great.
The short par 4's were great.
The par 5's were terrific.
The long par 4's were a demanding challenge.

Another theme that was consistent was how, due to the size of the greens, the holes could play dramatically different, without moving the tees.

As an example, # 16 Red, could be a 9-iron to a 3-wood or driver into the wind.

So many greens held an infinite number of hole locations.
So much so that you could probably play 100+ days in a row without seeing the same hole location on a good number of holes.

All agreed that "WIDTH" was one of the key ingredients to enjoying the course.

The greens were fast and very challenging for all, not so much on 5, 10, 15 and 20 footers, but, on the 30, 40, 50 and 60 footers.
Approach putting takes on enormous significance at Streamsong, especially when those greens are running fast.

Rusty and Kyle had the course in very good shape and those greens were really FIRM and FAST.
Chipping/pitching to them was difficult.
We all employed rescues/3-woods from off the green rather than lob wedges.

We all agreed that both courses were terrific in every way.

We could find no substantive shortcomings.

We had four good caddies, but, only one was an outstanding reader of greens.
We all found them difficult to read.
At high speeds, blending break with pace was a real challenge.

We had a great time and some great matches.
I made a birdie 3 on # 4 Red, and lost the hole to a 2.
Stacy Lewis, who was playing ahead of us made a 1 on # 6 and three of us hit it inside of 4 feet and all made birdie on # 6.

Teed off in a thick fog yesterday morning on Blue.
The twosome playing ahead of us, who had never played Streamsong Blue........... got lost in the fog on # 2.
So, we suggested that they play behind us because the caddies and I were familiar with the course.
So, we're talking on the 3rd tee and low and behold, it's another GCA.Com'er.
And the fellow he was playing with was wearing a Notre Dame cap.
And, so was I.  Turns out that his two daughters went to ND.
We were so excited to meet each other that we could have talked for hours.
But, my group was yelling for me to get going as they were far ahead in the fairway.
The golf world is uniquely small.

The other three guys in my foursome and the caddies asked, how do you know that guy.
So then I had to explain GCA.com to them.

Everyone I spoke to at Streamsong, loved the courses, Red and/or Blue.

The debate over 100 plays ensued.

Blue seemed to win by a 7-3 margin, but Red grew on me a little.

Lastly, the golf staff were terrific.
The Pros, assistant Pros, staff, Starter, assistants, caddies, everyone was great to be with.

I'm anxious to return.

I wonder if they ever considered building an airstrip with shuttle service from Orlando, Tampa, Palm Beach, Ft Lauderdale, Miami,

What kind of golf course would compliment the existing two courses and act as a significant golfing lure ?
 

[Mark Hissey]

I liked Blue the best right away.

I'm personally surprised at the debate to be honest.

[Daniel Jones]

I played both courses for the first time back in October, and something tells me my preference between the two will change many times in the years to come. I came away from that trip leaning to the Red, though I scored better on the Blue. Looking back on it, I also seem to remember far more of my round and the holes on the Blue than I do the Red...perhaps because I was rushing around Red trying to beat sunset.

Your point on putting here is dead on. I found the greens to be a lot of fun, but downright treacherous in places. I suppose the rule always applies, but you definitely have to choose wisely when being aggressive. Case in point... I walked away with a 5 putt on 18 Red. 

[Tim Passalacqua]

I agree with you Patrick.  Red is fantastic.  I think Red is on the more exciting property.  The wildness and abruptness of the dunes and land is so unique.  #4 is one of my favorite short par fours.  I think the long fours are all fair and well done. The par fives have so many options and angles.  #16 is one of a kind.  When I reflect on a course, I always think about how unique it is.  I don't think you will ever see another course like Red.

[Jerry Kluger]

Pat: My only problem with the Red was that I felt that the back nine was much longer and tougher than the front and I wasn't in love with #18. I had recommended to my friends when they went down as a group of 12, handicaps 10-20, that they move up a set of tees on the back and they did so and really loved the course. 18 felt to me like a 4.25 - just long enough not to reach in 2 but not great for laying up either.

[Keith OHalloran]

Pat,
You say that your group used 3 wood or Hybrid from around the green. Jeff Warne has spoken about this, as recently on the Casa De Campo thread. Do you feel that the conditions of the course had the effect of limiting your actual choice around the green?

[Michael Whitaker]

Pat: My only problem with the Red was that I felt that the back nine was much longer and tougher than the front and I wasn't in love with #18. I had recommended to my friends when they went down as a group of 12, handicaps 10-20, that they move up a set of tees on the back and they did so and really loved the course. 18 felt to me like a 4.25 - just long enough not to reach in 2 but not great for laying up either.

Jerry,

We did the same on the Red... moved up a tee on the back. MUCH more fun for average golfers!

[Greg Tallman]

Pat,
You say that your group used 3 wood or Hybrid from around the green. Jeff Warne has spoken about this, as recently on the Casa De Campo thread. Do you feel that the conditions of the course had the effect of limiting your actual choice around the green?

Why must an average 20 handicapper be given the cushion of turf on which to play that he requires to get a SW under the ball? It is no different than carrying a 270 bunker, some can do it some cannot.

Relatively tight firm turf provides all options to better players (which confounds many) while providing the safest play for the average guy. If a facility has the ability/turf conditions to present it in such a way why on earth would they not?

[Ivan Lipko]

Folks, how these courses compare to the best of the best of gca, like Bandon and Scottish Irish links? Gca wise I mean. Would you put the Streamsong courses firmly in the World 100?

[John Kavanaugh]

Folks, how these courses compare to the best of the best of gca, like Bandon and Scottish Irish links? Gca wise I mean. Would you put the Streamsong courses firmly in the World 100?

No, Florida would be lucky to have one top 100 course. The turf choices just don't cut it.

[Mike Hendren]

Ivan, while I've only played the courses once I'm hard pressed to assign them anything higher than 7's.   Very good golf courses, mind you.  When it comes to landscapes, the mining industry can't hold a candle to nature.  For example, contrast the wonderful photograph on the home page of the 16th at North Berwick West Links with any photograph of Streamsong.  There's the answer - at least for me.

Bogey

[Scott Weersing]

I wonder if Streamsong gives out hole in one prizes to everyone.

https://twitter.com/Stacy_Lewis/status/545365163994783744/photo/1

[K Rafkin]

Folks, how these courses compare to the best of the best of gca, like Bandon and Scottish Irish links? Gca wise I mean. Would you put the Streamsong courses firmly in the World 100?

In the past few months I've been lucky enough to visit Streamsong, bandon, and then Streamsong again.  One of the most common criticisms I hear about Streamsong is that "it isn't bandon" which what they really mean is that it isn't on the ocean.  While this may be true, and you can note Streamsong getting the same criticism above, the courses are absolutely spectacular.  The last time I walked of Pacific Dunes I remember thinking to myself "darn, Streamsong blue is good".  I'd be hesitant to put either in the top 100 in the world simply because the world is kind of a big place, and I haven't seen enough of its courses.  That being said I've seen enough courses in the USA to say that both courses at Streamsong deserve to be on the Top 100 USA list.

[Ivan Lipko]

Slighly off topic, but the aforementioned photo of North Berwick shows how great golf can (and should ) be on green grass. Not FL style, TPC Sawgrass green grass, but still green and not brown or white.

[Steve Lapper]

Folks, how these courses compare to the best of the best of gca, like Bandon and Scottish Irish links? Gca wise I mean. Would you put the Streamsong courses firmly in the World 100?

No, Florida would be lucky to have one top 100 course. The turf choices just don't cut it.

Perhaps one could say the same for Indiana....or even Nebraska.

[K Rafkin]

Folks, how these courses compare to the best of the best of gca, like Bandon and Scottish Irish links? Gca wise I mean. Would you put the Streamsong courses firmly in the World 100?

No, Florida would be lucky to have one top 100 course. The turf choices just don't cut it.

Perhaps one could say the same for Indiana....or even Nebraska.

haven't you heard?

In order to be a top 100 course it needs to be sand based, fescue grass, built alongside the ocean! 

[Tom_Doak]

No, Florida would be lucky to have one top 100 course. The turf choices just don't cut it.

John:

I know that's the old school opinion, but I really think you couldn't ask for a better playing surface than what you get at Streamsong.  The only complaint I've ever heard about it is that the greens are sometimes too FAST when the grass goes semi-dormant in the winter.  And it is plenty bouncy enough for my satisfaction.

I think the new grasses in the south have changed the situation considerably ... and Streamsong does benefit from being built on sand.

The general consensus from raters seems to be more along the lines of what Bogey said ... great course, but only a 7 because it's not built in nature [i.e. by the ocean].  Is the ocean really worth THREE points?  I've always thought it was one point for the view and one more for the windy, bouncy conditions.

[Jason Way]

I had recommended to my friends when they went down as a group of 12, handicaps 10-20, that they move up a set of tees on the back and they did so and really loved the course. 

I played the Red in the spring and the caddie in our group made the same recommendation about moving up a set of tees on the back nine.  Had a blast and loved the course.  I like to get beaten up every once in a while, so I'll probably try it from the back tees on the back nine next time around.

Headed back in February to check out Mr. Doak's Blue course.  Based on what I've read here, I am counting the days...

Having been to both Bandon and Streamsong, I think it's splitting hairs when comparing them.  Hard to beat either when it comes to modern resort golf.  If I lived in the Eastern time zone, I would be much more inclined to head down to Streamsong given the choice, if for no other reason that to save a day's worth of travel on the front and back end.

Tom, any news on the rumors of the Lido "reproduction" being the third course at Streamsong?

[Jeff Taylor]

"great course, but only a 7 because it's not built in nature [i.e. by the ocean]"

Carry a picture with you if you must.

[jeffwarne]

Pat,
You say that your group used 3 wood or Hybrid from around the green. Jeff Warne has spoken about this, as recently on the Casa De Campo thread. Do you feel that the conditions of the course had the effect of limiting your actual choice around the green?

Why must an average 20 handicapper be given the cushion of turf on which to play that he requires to get a SW under the ball? It is no different than carrying a 270 bunker, some can do it some cannot.

Relatively tight firm turf provides all options to better players (which confounds many) while providing the safest play for the average guy. If a facility has the ability/turf conditions to present it in such a way why on earth would they not?

Greg,
I'll bite.
I'm not talking about giving a 20 a "cushion of turf". I'm talking about giving all golfers, fun, interesting, varied choices.
"relatively tight firm turf" would be awesome, and would/present a variety of options for better players as you correctly point out
But in reality,I just see a trend toward super tight/short-especially at high end courses, and inevitably it's soft from either mother nature or an attempt/need to keep it alive/healthy at such a short height-thus rendering putter the club of choice.

and to piggyback off Pat's comments, about using a 3 wood or hybrid vs a lob wedge saddens me.
I'd like to think there's some middle ground options (6,7, 8,9 iron, hooking a chip)

We all rave about the interesting green surrounds created on many/most courses designed by Donald Ross.
He certainly wasn't designing for approach heights commonly found on today's high end courses.
How can we talk about architect intent in greenside recovery when we have so vastly lowered the mowing heights and decreased the firmness of the surfaces via irrigation and "improved" agronomy?

as an aside,the biggest mistake I see good and bad players alike when attempting a running shot  is bumping the ball INTO a slope rather than having it land on a flatter spot and run up the slope. The second mistake I see is players trying to land exactly on the front of a green or fringe and not picking a large enough predictable landing area(whether it's green or fairway) to get a predictable bounce . The most important bounce is the first, and it must occur on a surface that is as reasonably predictable as is possible given the conditions. As Greg points out this is dicey in longish or grainy grass, but it is possible with reasonable skill or imagination.

[Stewart Abramson]

Teed off in a thick fog yesterday morning on Blue.
The twosome playing ahead of us, who had never played Streamsong Blue........... got lost in the fog on # 2.
So, we suggested that they play behind us because the caddies and I were familiar with the course.
So, we're talking on the 3rd tee and low and behold, it's another GCA.Com'er.
And the fellow he was playing with was wearing a Notre Dame cap.
And, so was I.  Turns out that his two daughters went to ND.
We were so excited to meet each other that we could have talked for hours.
But, my group was yelling for me to get going as they were far ahead in the fairway.
The golf world is uniquely small.

The other three guys in my foursome and the caddies asked, how do you know that guy.
So then I had to explain GCA.com to them.

With apologies to Clement Clarke Moore and Pat

Twas nine days before Christmas and all through the course
Not a creature was stirring, not even in the gorse
My clubs were placed gently in the rental car in the dark
Leaving my family behind at Universal theme park

I departed for Streamsong, heavy mist in the air
With visions of pars and perhaps birdies if I dare
I arrived at the Clubhouse, first tee time of the day
To the disappointing announcement of a thick fog delay

A little while later off to the first tee
Only to find no course could we see

P1060309

After striping our drives down the middle with lust
Searching for balls in mid fairway turned to disgust

P1060312

On the second hole voices in the distance were heard
We thought perhaps we could follow them after the third
When what to my wondering eyes should appear
Four caddies, four golfers, one in Garden City gear

P1060315

With a little old driver, so lively and quick
I knew in a moment it must be Patrick
After Notre Dame tales and GCA discussion
His group carried on and their drives they were crushin’

P1060322

Less than two minutes later they disappeared through the murk
Leaving us stranded and lost contemplating the quirk
P1060318

P1060323

But in the distance I heard him exclaim, ere he drove out of sight
Happy Golfing to all… Streamsong Blue is alright!

P1060332

P1060331 Pat sinks a put on #7 zoomed from 200 yards

[JESII]

What kind of golf course would compliment the existing two courses and act as a significant golfing lure ?
 

So, assuming a third courses is undoubtedly in the plans...why wouldn't it be a course designed to host a PGA Tour event?

[Jason Topp]

What kind of golf course would compliment the existing two courses and act as a significant golfing lure ?
 

So, assuming a third courses is undoubtedly in the plans...why wouldn't it be a course designed to host a PGA Tour event?

Because you would not have any spectators.  

I love the poem and pictures Stewart.

[K Rafkin]

No, Florida would be lucky to have one top 100 course. The turf choices just don't cut it.

John:

I know that's the old school opinion, but I really think you couldn't ask for a better playing surface than what you get at Streamsong.  The only complaint I've ever heard about it is that the greens are sometimes too FAST when the grass goes semi-dormant in the winter.  And it is plenty bouncy enough for my satisfaction.

I think the new grasses in the south have changed the situation considerably ... and Streamsong does benefit from being built on sand.

The general consensus from raters seems to be more along the lines of what Bogey said ... great course, but only a 7 because it's not built in nature [i.e. by the ocean].  Is the ocean really worth THREE points?  I've always thought it was one point for the view and one more for the windy, bouncy conditions.

I never much liked the idea that you're loosing any points for not being on the ocean.  It's depressing to look at a spectacular site like Streamsong and know that you can do everything right and build 18 spectacular holes, and still loose points for not being on the ocean.  When evaluating courses especially those on the water, I try to imagine those same holes in a landlocked setting to try and figure out if they are good holes or I'm just bewitched by the water.  

Anyway...

7. An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles. You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good course conditioning and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf.
8. One of the very best courses in its region (although there are more 8s in some places, and none in others), and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout.
9. An outstanding course—certainly one of the best in the world—with no weaknesses in regard to condition, length or poor holes. You should see this course sometime in your life.

If was to rate the courses at Streamsong using this scale they both look like solid 8s to me, ocean or no ocean.  

[Daniel Jones]

If was to rate the courses at Streamsong using this scale they both look like solid 8s to me, ocean or no ocean.  

Agreed, 100%.

And awesome poem/photos Stewart!