Golf in Cuba

[Peter Pallotta]

 

I suppose you could ask for a mulligan.  

Compared to, say, an old Greek god like Zeus, this one looks a little more forgiving.

(Strange that with such penal gods, the Greeks never really developed a top-flight touring pro. Just goes to show once again the advantages of a more strategic approach.)

[K Rafkin]

Lou-

Thanks for your comments

In regards to my "world beater" comment:  If you re-read my post you will notice that i don't say or even imply that American design teams and construction crews are the only way to get one of these "world beaters" built in Cuba.  Although american design teams and construction crews aren't necessary to get one of these courses built, american tourism dollars and demand are.  Although its been said that Cuba does trade/travel with some 191 other countries, its suffering a large economic loss without access to American tourism dollars.  Just about every other island Caribbean tourist destination relies heavily on US tourism dollars, and i don't see how it would be any different in Cuba.  

Andrew-

Thanks for posting those pictures.  Im incredibly interested in this topic, so its greatly appreciated.

[Lou_Duran]

Tom Doak has a sense of humor.  Who knew!  Hanging around Urbina wasn't all bad after all.   

Jeff Blume- During the time you write about, compared to what it is today and relative to that part of the world then, Cuba was an imperfect paradise.  People came from all over the world to start a new life.  Many like my family succeeded.  Today, in sharp contrast, the government, the perilous seas, and countries unreceptive to immigrants conspire to imprison whatever productive, hopeful segment of the population remains.  Too bad the malcontents on this site and elsewhere can't take an extended trip, say for one year, to this socialist paradise.  I'm sure that I would be joined by many others in contributing generously to a fund awarding matching stipends for a one-way ticket to those who yearn the equality of outcomes and "social justice".   BTW, I really like your Grand Pines course at Bentwater.  A great addition to TX golf.

RJ,

If you think so highly of the "Scandis" why not try living there?  I get you don't like wealth, at least that of someone else.  What altruistic motives and sources of capital do you recommend for rebuilding a society that has been destroyed probably to a level comparable to the turn of the 20th century?  Would your labor friends want to lend money or invest their pension funds on rebuilding the island?  I would suggest that Detroit might offer a better chance of returning your principle, not to say anything about making a profit.

The embargo today is largely symbolic.  As David Schmidt noted, what's transpired is not unusual for this government and its foreign policy.  Many of our enemies are having their way with us while our natural, long time allies are getting the shaft.  Your comparison of prior U.S. attempts at forging positive relations with our adversaries fails in a very big way.   Our leaders then did not have a worldview that we were the bad players, that our country needed to be brought down to size for its past sins.  Being that they saw the U.S. as a force for good, they did not seek to improve the world by acting against the interests of the U.S. and its allies.

If one thing is clear, President Obama is a different leader.  He has major problems with the U.S., how it was founded, and how it has evolved for more than 200 years.  You appear to have similar views.  Fox, tea and cakes.  Go down to Cuba and see what you get.  Confiscate and redistribute the wealth.  It has been done often for hundreds, thousands of years.  Me, I'll take my slight piece of cake that I bought through my own efforts, sip my tea, and rest somewhat comfortably in the knowledge that I can get a bigger piece if I want by exerting more effort, or run to the golf course for a quick nine if I prefer.  Over a million Cubans are able to do that in the U.S. as imperfect as our country is.  Maybe a hundred or so might be able to pull that off on the island today, most in government, and nearly all who fear deep inside that if they piss the wrong comandante off, the blood-splattered wall is not too far behind them.

Steve Wilson,

Be careful of being found guilty by association and ruining all the WVA hillbilly stereotypes!  I often reflect on just how lucky I am to be here, what myriad of happenstances took place, and yes, what a strange trip it has been.  Having grown up in two different cultures and systems as well as travelling widely has afforded me perspectives and insights that I would be loath to trade.  There is a great sense of appreciation for what is possible here that perhaps may be absent had I been reared in a more normal, secure, "take it for granted" American setting.  And knowing what might lie on the other side, maybe my fears can sometimes get the best of me.

As to fixing your '50s Chevy, you might wish to know that I have zero mechanical aptitude.  However, I do have some organizational skills.  Because I worked close to 40 hours per week during high school and more in the summers, I was able to save and buy a car.  It was a '67 Chevelle SS which had been run hard by a previous owner and needed a valve job.  I could barely turn a wrench, but I had a couple friends who were into muscle cars.  We pulled the heads, had them milled, the valves ground, and put the engine back together with the only mishap being that I stepped on and turned over the full oil pan, getting it all over my buddy working under the car (at least he had no problem sliding out, but was he pissed!).  My contribution was handing them the tools, some cleaning, and most importantly, buying the beer.  The car ran good for a year or two until my mom took it out when hers was in the shop and blew the engine (I am sure she had it in second gear thinking it was in fourth).  I sure wish I still had that car.

I have occasionally thought of what my life would be like had I remained in Cuba.  I doubt that I would be serving my friend Dick Daley guarapo and churros off my street cart.  Likely I would have gone to the hills like Fidel (you might be interested to learn that I attended Belen, his alma mater, for a year before he closed it down- strange bedfellows the Pope, the Jesuits, many who are radical socialists, and the church's accommodation of a political system so similar, yet so inimical), organized an escape, or more likely, languished in the dungeons of El Morro de la Habana, daydreaming of a prison life in Guantanamo.  I can tell you one think, Cypress Point would never have popped into my mind! 

[Howard Riefs]

Brad Klein's perspective:

http://golfweek.com/news/2014/dec/17/cubas-economic-rebirth-could-make-golf-reality/

[Lou_Duran]

K Rafkin,

Perhaps you are of the same mind as Brad Klein, a political science professor before a metamorphosis to golf architecture expert.  I would enjoy his or your economic analysis supporting the thesis.

But let's assume that both of you are right and golf grows like gangbusters because Americans are so full of disposable income and want to spend it in the beautiful island.  Why do you suppose the golf courses that would be built there would be so superior, "world beaters" as you called them, to those on the other Caribbean islands, Mexico, Central and South America, FL for that matter.  Is the topography better?  Soils to grow a higher quality, less grainy Bermuda?

This also assumes that property rights issues are resolved.  What American company might be willing to be brought into an American court for building on my property without my consent?  A lease from a highly volatile, lawless government sufficient guarantee to secure a loan?  Even the Chinese flush with dollars might have second thoughts.

Then you have the thorny issue of supply and demand.  Do you think that other countries will sit pat while the new entrant sucks away market share?  Not many countries lacking a golf culture have been successful in creating much domestic demand.  Good for golf consumers, but if I was doing the feasibility analysis or due diligence for the investors, competitive reaction is a dynamic that would require considerable discussion.

A more likely scenario is that the few courses that might be built would be done in conjunction with large hotels.  Are they going to hire Doak or C & C?  I don't see Trump bringing Hanse in.  Why would the developers be breaking the mold?  To lure a few hundred GCAers who might travel down there?  Miami or Orlando with a better view might be the more likely model.

[RJ_Daley]

Lou, you have so many interesting and knowledgeable ideas and thoughts on these issues, but then you go and muck it up by using a very poor argumentative technique of putting words and ascribing values and philosophies to your debate opponent that are so over the top and assign the opposite view to the extreme (where the extreme is not proposed) that you just fail to allow the discussion to continue on a rational footing.

You are so afraid to near hysteria of any model of economic and political organization other than your view of unfettered free market and unbridled capitalism in a wall street sense, that any other form or model is 'socialism' or 'totalitarian communism'.  As I mentioned (maybe in your haste to repurpose my views to fit your argument you missed it) but I never suggested any workers paradise or any such compliment to the repressive and failed regime in Cuba.  When you mention things like telling or positing; why don't you have some of you labor pension funds go down there and do some development.... well how do you think several developments in the US have been capitalized by investment?  Since this is golf architecture.... ever hear of Half Moon Bay?  I think it was capitalized in large part by money from either the plumber and pipefitters or electrical union, out of NY if memory serves.  There are resorts and other housing and retail developments capitalized by labor union pension investments around the country.  But, your view of 'labor' is so negative, that you go off half cocked with such a  proclamation of 'go have your labor buddies put up their pension money' (paraphrased)

The, when I express a model of how to organize a new governance and economic model into the vacuum that will surely be Cuba for an extended period of time, once the inevitable finally gets rolling, and I mention that I hope it isn't a exploitative and greedy model as we see in so many corporations lacking an ethical component, mostly the creed of too may greedy movers and shakers of wall street banker ilk, where the wealthy jiggle the laws, legislation, and accounting rules to get the huge piece of the profit, and the rest get the shaft; and I suggest other areas like the Scandies that seem to be a bit more ethical, more regulation and ownership components of the state (people) you suggest in the old trite right winger refrain, "why don't you go live there then, I'll help buy your ticket".  Well, hell ya.  But did you know you just can't pick up and go there, get citizenship and become part of that society quite so easy?   See, places like Australia, Scandies, even Canada don't have the same easier to assimilate to their citizenship as this country afforded YOU!  I'd have been gone two decades ago if I could have gotten relatively equal value for my dollars and assets and granted an easy enough path to their citizenship, if only for some of the healthcare benefits alone!   But, oh yah, now I have our version of socialized medicine, Medicare.  Thank goodness I lived long enough to get it.  My costs are piling up these days, and with my contributions to "plus" plans and suh, and the copays I'm happy to pay, I have a chance with this damn socialized Medicare that it seems your camp wishes to destroy.  Then it would come down to 'hurry up and die'. 

By the way, I own a Norwegian Oil stock, pay the foreign tax, clip a decent dividend, and there is more than 50% ownership by the Norwegian State, and while their is an oil price down draft at the moment, I have been quite satisfied.  And, by comparison, their executive compensation packages and all the ugly stuff that goes on within similar US Oil Company corporate governance and models is well compensated - but not so outrageous that it sucks one's breath away that such greed is possible or necessary. Japanese and many other corp exec comp models the same as you well know.  Why not that sort of blended regulated capitalism for Cuba of the future?  Is that a bridge too far for you to consider?

Lighten up man.  We all know many others that came through as much hardship and hard work to get somewhere as you.  Some of us or our families did.  And yet we do not have your laissez faire and don't tax and tread on me, world view.... and we are all doing relatively fine. despite the intrusion of government and payment of taxes in our lives. 

Rather than that laissez faire, dog eat dog, unregulated and unethical capitalism migrate into Cuba in the coming vacuum, where the 1% continue to have it all, and the people are still underpaid, exploited and squeezed out of governance by voting law schemes, maybe a little blended capitalism with greater regulation against exploitation of workers, accounting tax gimmicks that siphon the profits just to that 1% and some ethical progressive policies to allow the people to share in a growing economy, might serve better. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

This seems is a fair assessment of President Obama's foreign policy, like it or not:
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/137516/martin-indyk-kenneth-lieberthal-and-michael-e-ohanlon/scoring-obamas-foreign-policy

Florida State University has been polling Cuban Americans since 1991, here's their latest:

— 68 percent of respondents favor restoring diplomatic relations with Cuba.
— Among younger respondents, 90 percent of respondents favor restoring diplomatic ties.
— When you include only registered voters, 51 percent of them support continuing the embargo.
— 69 percent of all respondents favor the lifting of travel restrictions impeding all Americans from traveling to Cuba.
— 53 percent of respondents said they would be likely to vote for a "candidate for political office who supported the re-establishment of diplomatic relations."
— A large majority — 71 percent — responded that the U.S. embargo of Cuba has not worked at all or has not worked very well.


 

[Lou_Duran]

David,

For a leader of a tiny, relatively unimportant country, Fidel has made a disproportional and long-lasting impact.  He has stimulated the dreams of countless leftists in the U.S. and throughout the world.  I suspect that the majority of the Congressional Black Caucus would much prefer his company than that of any Republican colleague and would welcome his leadership.  Fidel has been flipping the U.S. the bird with impunity for five decades.  Over that time, he has been a great source of psychic satisfaction to any number of malcontents.  I have no doubt that President Obama will find much in common with Raul and at least in his private meetings with the substitute JV dictator, he will truly be the smartest man in the room.

Jim Kennedy,

I don't suppose you want to similarly post the numerous opinion polls showing the unpopularity of Obamacare.  I guess it is okay to follow the public sentiment when it favors your POV.  When it is not, well, Dr. Gruber has told us that Americans are mostly stupid and unable to understand complexity, so why would the good, smart people in the government class want to pay attention to them anyways?  The dummies wouldn't know what's good for them, right?  The search for cosmic justice continues; judge intentions, not actions, and certainly not results.  Do I have it about right?  And no, unlike John Kavanaugh and Tom Paul, I don't have the good excuse of indulging occasionally in heavy drinking late at night.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

If you need some Obamacare polling to make you happy...

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03/31/five-things-polling-tells-us-about-obamacare/

...although I don't see the point behind an exercise using false equivalencies.    A poll about Obamacare and a poll of Cuban American opinions about lessening tensions between the USA and Cuba have no bearing on each other. 

[Craig Sweet]

Since this was side tracked it should be noted that nearly 80% of Americans enrolled in the Affordable Care Act love it and give it high marks. 

On the foreign policy front...Killed ben Laden, ended or reduced our involvement in two wars, had a hand in overthrowing African dictators, one benefit of that is the return to high levels of oil production in Libya and a reduction in oil prices world wide, got CO2 concessions from the single largest producer of climate changing CO2's, has ISIS on the ropes, has isolated Russia and their horrible civil rights record and continues to turn up the screws on them, ended 50 years of ridiculous behavior toward Cuba removing once and for all this myth of "enemy" ( who will the Castro bros. use as a boogie man now?).

From what I have been told, the Swiss, the Dutch, and others have developed some very nice hotels and golf courses along the north coast of Cuba that serve a growing clientele.

[Brad Tufts]

From what I have been told, the Swiss, the Dutch, and others have developed some very nice hotels and golf courses along the north coast of Cuba that serve a growing clientele.

Not sure about the hotels, but from all reports there are currently only 27 holes of golf in Cuba...the 9-holer near Havana, and the Varadero course on the coast, which has been in play for something like 15 years.

[Steve Lapper]

From what I have been told, the Swiss, the Dutch, and others have developed some very nice hotels and golf courses along the north coast of Cuba that serve a growing clientele.

Not sure about the hotels, but from all reports there are currently only 27 holes of golf in Cuba...the 9-holer near Havana, and the Varadero course on the coast, which has been in play for something like 15 years.

As of 2012, there were plans-on-file for developing over a dozen new courses, most backed originally by Spanish and other European-based funding. Most of these projects had their planning inception nearer to 2008. Needless to say, all have been put on hold.

I've toured two of the sites closest to Havana and can tell you the land was nice, if not slightly-above average with some views, and the soils rather difficult. Neither would yield anything amazing. The country has much better venues for golf, however nearly all of them remain relatively remote and without anything close to the necessary infrastructure.

[Mike Nuzzo]

When I see Cuba on the map, I see a great piece of land the size of Florida, without 1,400 crap golf courses.
Cheers

[RJ_Daley]

No Dave, people like us.  I reached Medicare so I have that version of health care.  But my wife, who still has not reached that age, who has three university degrees, who
still works PT sub teaching in two different school districts, who has a gyno condition that has not manifested a problem since its diagnosis 40 years ago, could not get a straight up with no pre-existing condition, had to have a 5000 deduct, 20% copay, and substandard coverage of things now mandated by AHCA, and who had to pay a ridiculous amount for said substandard policy in the preAHCA era, who isn't poor, on welfare, and all the rest of the negative characteristics of these 8 million unworthy folk you say are beneficiaries of AHCA... that sort of person is among the takers in society getting some peace of mind from AHCA.  And we are above the bar to receive any subsidy to reduce monthly premium.  But now, there is no threat of recision, no cancelation, and mandated benefits for things that previously were excluded.  Yet, we still have 2500 deduct, 20% copay, and I'll bet pay more out of pocket for premium and expenses than YOU DO! - FOR ONE PERSON.  Even Cuba can do better than that!

But I am sure you are not any more piqued at carrying all these AHCA freeloaders on you tax burden than some of us <1%ers are upset that our taxes go towards propping up corporate subsidies in oil and other lobbied for special breaks for corps making record profits, and bailouts and all the rest.  We don't have the corp accounting tricks, and it is our pension funds that are treasure troves for a variety of skimming that has taken place over decades.  But, you are worried some folk who aren't sufficiently employed or high enough paid at min wage levels will get subsidies for their health ins premium?  Really?  GMAFB!  

[Lou_Duran]

Mike Nuzzo,

If I was going to develop a course in Cuba and thought that branding was not necessary, you and Don would be my picks to design and build.  As Steve Lapper notes, the land is not exceptional and it would require great creativity and effort to get something really good out of it.  I must confess that I have thought about it from time to time, but I won't live to see the day.

Jim,

Perhaps I misunderstood the purpose of your original post citing the FSU polling.  Apparently it was not to reinforce Obama's foreign policy vis-à-vis Cuba.  My bad.  No "false equivalencies" there. 

Craig Sweet,

Thanks for the good laugh.  I fully concur with your self-assessment.

Brad Tufts,

Shush!  Let the fantasy continue.

David Schmidt,

Quit being such an a--h---!  I've actually known several lefties who whine incessantly about the free stuff they get.

But since you bring up Christmas, my son is planning to tell his 2 year-old daughter that Santa doesn't exist (wants to be "truthful").  Should  and how do I intervene.  I am convinced that she'll be among the most enthusiastic members of the 80%.

Dick,

Man, I feel your pain.  Having read your lengthy piece, twice, I think that maybe you're trying to tell me in 1k words that I am full of shit.  You might have saved both of us some time, though quite a Rorschach.  Reading it, I was reminded of the time when I heard Hank Haney tell one of his pupils with some frustration that the poor chap's swing was in so many planes he didn't know which one to look at.  I guess that I should be impressed with all my debating ploys and the many fallacious arguments I made without a huge number of words (btw, thanks for not calling me a sophist this time).  Have you heard of the term "projection"?  Might be worth looking up.

Perhaps you misunderstood my comments about investing union pension money in Cuba.  While I haven't personally worked with union pension funds in acquiring real estate, I am very aware that such investments are common (and BTW, I have played the original course at Half Moon Bay; liked it).  One such investment right here in Dallas has been in the "limelight" for awhile.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-20/dallas-tower-dithers-as-glass-roasts-museum-masterpieces.html

Apparently, the police union in Dallas is no less the ruthless capitalist than the CEOs and the "1%" you seem to hate so much.  It is so noble, highly principled, and civically-minded to be generous with other people's money.  Apparently, not so much when it is your own.

Labor unions here and all over the world emphasize uniting, working together, being "in for the struggle".  They may not sport the hammer and sickle logo on their shirts, but the rhetoric and tactics are more in line with the socialists than the capitalist enterprises they depend on for their livelihood.

In the normalization of Cuba and to help the good working people get on their feet, it would just seem to follow that our comparatively rich unions would want to help their needy comrades with some investment to build a more "balanced", socially conscious society.  If fellow socialists don't want to lend a helping hand, how can you reasonably expect a filthy, unethical capitalist to do so?  But I digress.  Anybody suggesting putting money into Cuba while the communists have any power should change the title in his business card from Investments to Philanthropy.   

I just have to laugh at your canned, repetitive rhetoric- "laissez faire, dog eat dog, unregulated and unethical capitalism".  You sound just like the villain protagonist in "Atlas Shrugged".  I was not aware that you were that old to remember the time before Woodrow Wilson.  With government spending accounting for over 40% of GDP, it must be hard for you to keep a straight face and repeat such nonsense.  In a country where a little girl has to get a permit from the government to sell lemonade on a corner in her neighborhood, whose dog is doing the eating?

Re: normalizing relations with Cuba and eventually ending the embargo, I am mostly indifferent.  The Castros are very near their sunset- some believe that Fidel is already being preserved in formaldehyde- and I am not sure that their successors can sustain the extreme repression without a sugar daddy.  Unfortunately, like parts of the old Soviet Union that we visited last year, the population has been reduced to supplicants for their livelihood, the change is like coming out into bright sunlight after being stuck in a dark dungeon for years.  A large number won't be able to cope and will likely yearn the former tediousness of subsistence.  It is extremely hard to watch the death of the human spirit.  Had President Obama negotiated something positive in the interest of both countries and involved Congress, I would be much more encouraged.  How, when, and what he got does not serve our interests.

Dick, those who are so preoccupied with the concentration of wealth, the unequal outcomes in even heavily regulated economies such as ours are always going to be looking for a different way.  You can't change human nature so that those who produce will continue to work just as hard so that those who don't can receive a similar reward.  Cuba has tried for over five decades to equate the work of doctors to those of street sweepers.  Curiously, it exports doctors to other countries in return for hard currency paid directly to the government while the street sweepers stay home.  I guess that even in a socialist utopia, all types of work are not equal after all.

I am sorry that a union cop doesn't earn what the CEO of a small company does.  It is simply a function of the service or product each provides and the supply and demand for their respective skills.  At least in this country, one has substantial control in determining the path of his life (I know we don't agree on this either).  No one points a gun at a student and says "you're going to be a teacher".   Who knows, when you came to the fork, had you taken a different path you might have become a CEO or, maybe worse, a hedge fund manager!  I guess the grass is always greener on the other side of the pasture.

As a final note, the only thing that will turn things around in Cuba is entrepreneurship and the patriotism of the 1%s among the Cuban-American community.  Unfortunately, many are like the Castros, close to their sunset, and their kids are pretty comfortable right here in the good old U.S.A.  A likely scenario is that those with rights to significant holdings will press them aggressively and the whole thing turns into a real ugly Cuban cockfight.  Mike Nuzzo probably shouldn't wait for my call.  And in the word of a much more famous Duran, "no mas"! 

[Craig Sweet]

Funny, but I pay a monthly premium for my insurance....the insurance I could not get before because of a pre existing condition...and I work and pay taxes....BUT I don't make as much money as that asshole Schmidt...I'm unlucky, uneducated, too stupid, and too lazy.

No, if I really wanted a real government hand out I'd become a corporation.

[Tony_Muldoon]

My wife and I were talking about Cuba last week ... there are regular flights to Havana from Nassau.  [And Toronto.]

I know Lou Duran will be here shortly to protest any relations with the Castro regime.  When he comes, I hope he'll answer how the embargo has done anything to improve the plight of the people of Cuba, now that it's had 50+ years to show results.

I’d like to call Tom out here for promoting a predictable debate. Not helpful.

My wife and I went to Cuba on Holiday in January 2013.  I like to think we’re seriously good at holidays but, I know she’d agree, it was one of the best ever.   I just hope the people of Cuba have a better future.

A little bit about my history.  I started my life in Belfast and was 5 when my parents emigrated in 1963. So I have watched subsequent events with more than usual interest. I can say that with regard to Northern Irish politics it is not helpful to be reminded of previous wrongs everytime people meet to discuss the future. It’s a real problem that the past is everywhere and the levels of distrust on both sides are unbelievable – you have to know a few people to get them to speak openly and then you get torrents about “them” and how “they” cannot be trusted. It is painful but at the moment I am optimistic that for every ten slow steps forward, only nine are being made backwards.  

It is clear that a change is going to come in Cuba and when it does it really won’t help to constantly recall how many tens of thousands were murdered or imprisoned by Batista/Castro (choose your villan) or what effect the US trade embargo has had. People in Cuba want to work and Golf can be part of the solution. If you want to help now, go there and spend some hard currency. Be a part of their future.

End of lecture.


A few tips.

Varadero is fun but it could be a Cuban theme park with its modern hotels.
Havana is not to be missed.
The island is larger and much more diverse than most imagine.  I have only seen three bits but the great surprise was the town of Trinidad, it has whetted the appetite for more exploration.

The music is everywhere and as fantastic as the Buena Vista Social Club is, it has set the tone for what tourists expect. In Trinidad we saw a big band rehearsing, a Jazz band in a bar and best of all 3 guys with guitars in a front room with the windows open. That was our first afternoon.
If you enjoyed BVSC then try this,  http://www.amazon.co.uk/Introducing-Ruben-Gonzalez/dp/B000005J55 I prefer it.


Finally if you want to get a flavour of life there under Castro (I realise I am contradicting myself) then these books are most entertaining.  A rogue cop who asks all the wrong questions in a repressive regime…how can it fail?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Havana-Red-Mario-Conde-Mystery/dp/1904738095/ref=sr_1_sc_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1419010664&sr=1-2-spell&keywords=havaN+BLUE

[RJ_Daley]

Thanks Tony for one man's contemporary assessment and observations.  I also enjoyed Anthony Boudain's travelogue last evening, which is a repeat airing.


How do we change perceptions and set new courses to guide the FUTURE policies if we rely on old bitter memories and people with open wounds so deep that it seems only endless revenge and ideologue agenda obscure ability to move forward?  Old hatreds, religious inolerance, ideological recalcitrance and obstruction to progress, social and economics-polemics that exclude all other points of view are exactly why shit holes like the middle east are so messed up, along with several others where these same old failures of humanity continue to drive greed and power.  We in the west, and our US policy can change with evolving conditions, as can Cuba's one way or the other.  The first 50 years of one way was feckless.  Why not try another? 

[Lou_Duran]

Tony Muldoon,

Tom Doak is a bad man (I am kidding of course).  A provocateur for sure!

It is relatively easy to be "objective" when one has not been even warmed by the fire.  Let bygones be bygones is fine when we are talking about differences over characterizations in an authentication debate.  I suppose that in the memory of the famous contemporary American urban philosopher Rodney King ("Can't we all get along?) we can dismiss Santayana's and Burke's similar admonitions against what you suggest (about forgetting the past and repeating its mistakes).

Oh Dick!  I much prefer being slurred as a sophist than part of the Cuban-American Taliban.  The search for the third way continues.  How to grow the pie while ensuring all slices are about the same.  Do you know Cervantes' El Quijote?  I like Robert Goulet's version of the "Impossible Dream" best.   

[Mark Bourgeois]

Lou,

Tony draws comparison to his family experience with The Troubles. I would guess his feet got far hotter than any of ours. I can't see that any of us moved out of the US because of animus with Cuba.

Anyway, I think Tim C and RJ have hit on the magic Trojan Horse for how to get a thread to 100+ pages discussing OT stuff without getting a double-tap from our Maximum Leader Kim-Jong Morrissett!

So...who wants to start a discussion on Golf and the Affordable Health Care Act? 

[RJ_Daley]

Mark, 

Lou, 

[Dave McCollum]

Oh great, golf and politics. Can we work in ratings and raters in some way and make this really a hoot?  Why stop there?  How about golf, politics, course ratings, college football, Tiger Woods (he looks sort of Cuban, right?), the Pope (that sandbagger), and religion.  Kick out the jambs, boys, let’s rumble and have some fun.

[corey miller]

Regardless of how one feels about Cuba, is the timing of the move a little strange?  President Obama has been in office six years, has anything changed? 

It seems a little tone deaf to reward a "rogue nation", Cuba,  in the same week we are attempting to deal with another "rogue nation" in North Korea and finding we have few options. 

I hope that is not too political as I would prefer to not have to argue with either RJ or Lou.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Corey

This notion that the U.S. just decided to "reward" Cuba at some sort of sacrifice to its own interests is certainly an interesting interpretation, to put it charitably. The previous policy against Cuba was designed during and for an era when the U.S. was engaged in a global Cold War and Cuba was an important client state of our enemy. That enemy has been extinct for decades. Cuba long ago lost its power to present a legitimate threat to the national security of the U.S.

The new policy carries risks but those are outweighed by the considerable potential political and economic benefits.

[Will Lozier]

I suspect that the majority of the Congressional Black Caucus would much prefer his company than that of any Republican colleague and would welcome his leadership.  

What a bunch of hot air probably taken straight from the geniuses at Fox & Friends last week.  Maybe Obama just wants to strike up a relationship with a dictator for advice purposes?  If anyone has extremist views, it is you - veiled in the "Founding Fathers" argument.  Just remember, they were slaveowners as they wrote the words "All men are created equal".