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Jim McCann

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Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 for 2015...
« on: December 16, 2014, 12:45:33 PM »
Just saw a tweet from Portsalon saying how pleased there were to move up two places to 23 in the new Golf Digest Top 100 chart for Ireland.

http://www.golfdigesttop100.ie/top-100-2015/top10

Other moves that may be of some interest:

Royal Portrush (Valley) remains at 48
Ballybunion (Cashen) rises 10 to 56
Strandhill climbs 6 to 70

and one of two new entries at 99 is..... Dunfanaghy.

I suppose I really must visit it when I'm next over in Donegal.

Thomas Dai

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Re: Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 for 2015...
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2014, 02:11:25 PM »
and one of two new entries at 99 is..... Dunfanaghy.
I suppose I really must visit it when I'm next over in Donegal.

Yes you must Jim, and Lizzie's restaurant, small and cosy, in the High Street is also highly recommended.

See excellent photo-tour - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49256.0.html

Atb
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 04:21:59 PM by Thomas Dai »

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 for 2015...
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2014, 02:53:53 PM »
When I first joined this panel 5 years ago, we shook the list up so substantially that the only response to critics was that the magazine had got it wrong in previous years. Ever since that, the editor has been getting more and more conservative in the size of the moves that make him uneasy. But this is the first time that the rankings that were agreed when the panel left the room are not the same as those published. A little disappointing.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 for 2015...
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2014, 03:38:59 PM »
When I first joined this panel 5 years ago, we shook the list up so substantially that the only response to critics was that the magazine had got it wrong in previous years. Ever since that, the editor has been getting more and more conservative in the size of the moves that make him uneasy. But this is the first time that the rankings that were agreed when the panel left the room are not the same as those published. A little disappointing.

Ally, I must admit there are a number of inland courses I've either never heard of or maybe have barely heard of. I know there has to be some representation by inland courses but I have a sense I'd be better off giving them a miss in favour of the Ballyb Cashens or Strand Hills of this world...

Brian, if you're ever nearby, give Portumna a whirl. Don't go expecting too much but it has some lovely topography. A genuine under the radar course. Suspect they've never seen a foreign tourist grace their fairways at all.

Once we get over the window dressing of 90's style mounding, there are a few of the modern ones that can be surprisingly enjoyable as well. Out of all the Christy O'Connor courses around the country, I think my favourite might be Rathsallagh which he co-designed with Peter McEvoy. Sits on the land relatively nicely and has the odd bit of quirk.

Neither of these courses holds a candle to Strandhill though.

Rob Marshall

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Re: Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 for 2015...
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2014, 05:01:34 PM »
When I first joined this panel 5 years ago, we shook the list up so substantially that the only response to critics was that the magazine had got it wrong in previous years. Ever since that, the editor has been getting more and more conservative in the size of the moves that make him uneasy. But this is the first time that the rankings that were agreed when the panel left the room are not the same as those published. A little disappointing.

It seems to me that the Valley course doesn't get the recognition that it deserves. I'll never understand Portsalon being ranked that high. The second hole is incredible but come on, 23? I will say the views of the surrounding landscape at Portsalon while on the course are some of the best in Ireland IMO.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Sean_A

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Re: Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 for 2015...
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2014, 06:56:06 PM »
I don't know how high Portsalon should be ranked, but whatever that is Strandhill an Narin & Portnoo should be nearby.  There is very little between these three courses.  In fact, with a gun to me head (unloaded of course because Ally would never do that  :D) I think N&P probably pips the other two.  All three of these and others as well I don't think are any better than Carnoustie Burnside...so that sort of settles out where they should be mentioned in the big scheme of things...3rd tier links...but very enjoyable...just the sort I like. 

The course that surprised me is Donegal.  I never see the course highly touted and I think it is very good.   

I still think the panel is better off with a top 50 and a list of gems...perhaps a small handful from each rater to bring a bit of personality to the process. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 for 2015...
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2014, 07:25:35 PM »
Perhaps to Sean's point re a top 50, I looked up the # of courses in Ireland (incl NI). The best estimate I found was 350, which means every course has about a 30 percent chance of being ranked by Golf Digest.

Little-known fact: all Irish courses legally reside within the boundaries of Lake Wobegon.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Mark Pavy

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Re: Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 for 2015...
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2014, 07:53:50 PM »
Ally, how many people on the panel?

Which courses gave the raters free games and which did not?

Tim Johnson

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Re: Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 for 2015...
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2014, 11:20:30 PM »
Still a little surprised about Carne not being higher ranked but given it locale, maybe it is not a surprise. For the links courses(my only knowledge) the list seems pretty spot on with the exception of the aforementioned Portsalon. My one regret was not including N&P on the 2 trips, I kinda knew back then that it was going to come back and bite me in the ass....should have done it over Portsalon.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 for 2015...
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2014, 02:44:46 AM »
Sean, Mark B,

Knowing the magazine wants to keep it at 100, I've been pushing for the second 50 to be lumped as one group (i.e. not numbered). Don't think it will happen. Narin and Portnoo is at 33 I think. Donegal has a lot going for it and had moved up a spot or two until I saw these numbers published. The stretch from 5 to 8 is amongst the best in the country.

Mark P,

There are 12 on the panel and a readers section of about 80 that feed in reviews. The main panel convene in October for 2 or 3 days and hammer out the rankings round a table. They all get free games at every course. Given that that equals the playing field, there is no benefit to any one course. And given that even without sitting on the panel, most would play for free or at industry rates, the free rounds are not that much of a benefit to each panel member either. The magazine likes us to announce our arrival though I ignored that on a few of the lesser courses and just paid my way, letting the course know after the fact.

I'd like to say it's all a bit of fun but unfortunately it means a lot to the clubs.

Rob, I happen to love Portsalon and could see it as a Top 20. As for The Valley, it didn't have a place in the 100 until 5 years ago so small steps.

Tim, there was a lot of praise for Carne from a couple of new panel members. The only reason it did not move up was because the 12th hole was out of commission for the entire season.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 02:51:24 AM by Ally Mcintosh »

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 for 2015...
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2014, 03:14:20 AM »
The thing I note is that that once again a panel of golfers who presumably have played the ‘top’ courses in Ireland many times, always seem to rate Portmarnock so highly. Time and again senior figures in Irish golf when asked the Question of where they would choose to play one last round, come up with this answer.

The course lacks the spectacle of the more famous Irish links but is held in great esteem by those who take the time to really know her. That is one definition of an interesting golf course.  And if like me you’ve only played her once, then I hope you played with a knowledgeable member.


Ally  ;)  are you prepared to speculate why the Editor might have revised the list?  Can you see any courses with an advertising budget that moved up?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 for 2015...
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2014, 03:45:08 AM »
Little-known fact: all Irish courses legally reside within the boundaries of Lake Wobegon.  :D

...where all the courses are strong, all the links are good looking, and all the parkland courses are above average.


I see quite a drop off after the likes of

Lahinch
Sligo
The Island
Ballybunion Old
Portstewart
Co Down
Portrush
Portmarnock

with one exception of Enniscrone which is a half step away.  Baltray is one I didn't think was any better than Rosapenna OTM Links, but a lot of people who know more than me swear by it so I now doubt I got that right.  
 
and I am told Waterville (though I have my doubts from the pre-Fazio days).  

The Gang of 4 add Portrush Valley (I think this is a step or two too far), TEC (I have serious doubts) and Doonbeg to the list with Carne sitting on the shoulder.  

I can't fathom how Tralee makes the top 10 (a change of heart will require the Sheehy School of Charm treatment  :D) and I have no idea what to make of Adare.

Even being generous this is 18 courses.  How does a chorus line of a few 6s, and a bunch of 5s & 4s justify a 100 course line-up?  No wonder the list is important to clubs.  In a rather grandiose way the mag made the list important by falsely elevating the status of a dozens of courses (perhaps with an opportunity to place ads?). The mag is playing with fire.      

Ciao
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 03:54:51 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 for 2015...
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2014, 04:28:15 AM »
Advertising revenue has nothing to do with the rankings (in fact the magazine swear they have lost more than gained through disgruntled clubs). As I said, the panel leave the room and that is the final ranking. Until this year. Sean - the editor changed them only to reduce some - already incremental - moves. He has had his fill of criticism I would say. Compromised the process at the same time though.

I didn't know you rated Portstewart so highly? That one stands out in your list. Adding Portrush Valley is a step too far, I agree. It has some class but is nowhere near a Top-10 Ireland course.

Baltray I've stated I think you are wrong. For what it's worth, it was my No.6 (after the big 5 of Portrush, Co.Down, Portmarnock, Lahinch & Ballybunion) with Rosses Point, The European, Waterville making up 7 to 9 and Carne, Enniscrone and The Island fighting it out for the next three places.

Tony, you are right that Portmarnock consistently rates very highly within the Irish consciousness, as well as the old school British one. Tom D might argue that it is to do with its championship past but I think that's missing a trick.... Although his point that the third nine was almost as good as the 18 and this possibly proved the lack of world class holes on the main 18 was a point I hadn't considered and one well made (despite the fact I think he is wrong with that also - 2 and 6 are the only holes on the third nine that stand with those on the main 18). Portmarnock remains for me the greatest links "whole" I can think of, even if the high points aren't quite as high as many other courses.... I voted it No.3 this year so I can assure you I didn't skew the vote.

The lower courses are the ones that benefit most and the ones that get most passionate, usually to do with local rivalry and how they fair against their competitors... I think the list brings light to many lesser courses that tourists (including those in Ireland) would do well to check out once in a while... But there's no doubt it is a little self-perpetuating and subjective. I'd probably leave the process after this year if I didn't think it would start regressing in to some sort of longer = better, championship = best list.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 for 2015...
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2014, 04:49:45 AM »
Ally

Yes, in my very unscientific rankings, Portmarnock is 27 in GB&I, so its placement in Ireland makes sense for me.  Rather like many championship courses, Portmarnock is far from my favourites, but its quality strikes me as undeniable. 

I have gone back to Portstewart three times now and I fail to see how TEC, Tralee and Carne can claim to be superior.  I know in the big scheme of things a few steps on the ladder is no big issue, but I look at Portstewart as in special company...top 25 GB&I.  Whereas I see a course like TEC well down around 90...a significant drop off. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 for 2015...
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2014, 06:25:44 AM »
Ally

Yes, in my very unscientific rankings, Portmarnock is 27 in GB&I, so its placement in Ireland makes sense for me.  Rather like many championship courses, Portmarnock is far from my favourites, but its quality strikes me as undeniable. 

I have gone back to Portstewart three times now and I fail to see how TEC, Tralee and Carne can claim to be superior.  I know in the big scheme of things a few steps on the ladder is no big issue, but I look at Portstewart as in special company...top 25 GB&I.  Whereas I see a course like TEC well down around 90...a significant drop off. 

Ciao


Let me make sure.  You have Portstewart above Portmarnock?

How many times have you seen the later? 


I loved Portstewart but would have it behind Tralee, if you are going to have some average holes it's better to have them on the front 9.


Have to agree that once you get past the top grouping the quality drops noticeably. But such quality at the top.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Mark Pavy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 for 2015...
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2014, 06:59:29 AM »

Mark P,

There are 12 on the panel and a readers section of about 80 that feed in reviews. The main panel convene in October for 2 or 3 days and hammer out the rankings round a table. They all get free games at every course. Given that that equals the playing field, there is no benefit to any one course. And given that even without sitting on the panel, most would play for free or at industry rates, the free rounds are not that much of a benefit to each panel member either. The magazine likes us to announce our arrival though I ignored that on a few of the lesser courses and just paid my way, letting the course know after the fact.

I'd like to say it's all a bit of fun but unfortunately it means a lot to the clubs.


Thanks Ally for taking the time to answer my question.

I appreciate your situation and considerations.

Mark


Sean_A

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Re: Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 for 2015...
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2014, 07:01:21 AM »
Ally

Yes, in my very unscientific rankings, Portmarnock is 27 in GB&I, so its placement in Ireland makes sense for me.  Rather like many championship courses, Portmarnock is far from my favourites, but its quality strikes me as undeniable. 

I have gone back to Portstewart three times now and I fail to see how TEC, Tralee and Carne can claim to be superior.  I know in the big scheme of things a few steps on the ladder is no big issue, but I look at Portstewart as in special company...top 25 GB&I.  Whereas I see a course like TEC well down around 90...a significant drop off. 

Ciao


Let me make sure.  You have Portstewart above Portmarnock?

How many times have you seen the later? 


I loved Portstewart but would have it behind Tralee, if you are going to have some average holes it's better to have them on the front 9.


Have to agree that once you get past the top grouping the quality drops noticeably. But such quality at the top.

Spangles, the two Ports are about dead even imo.  I can see it either coming out on top, but I would choose the drama of Stewart over the subtlety of Marnock.  

Tralee for me isn't in the conversation of top 10.  Too many odd/weird/nearly holes.  It probably makes top 20 in Ireland, but that is because of the huge drop-off in quality after 10-12 courses.  Tralee just may make my top 50 if it were in England.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 for 2015...
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2014, 07:11:40 AM »
This debate seems to be concentrating around the links courses so here is the top-100 listing but minus anything non-links -

Royal County Down
Portmarnock
Royal Portrush
Lahinch
Waterville
Ballybunnion Old
Tralee
European Club
Baltray/County Louth
Rosses Point/County Sligo
Ballyliffin Glashedy
The Island
Old Head
Enniscrone
Carne
Ballyliffin Old
Portstewart Strand
Donegal Murvagh
Portsalon
Dooks
Rosapenna Sandy Hills
Portmarnock Links
Royal Dublin
Doonbeg
Narin & Portnoo
Rosapenna OTM
Connemara
Castlerock
Seapoint
Portrush Valley
Rosslare
Strandhill
Dingle
Galway Bay
Laytown & Bettystown
Ardglass
St Annes
Dunfanaghy

I think that's them.

From what I've played I'd have Portsalon and Narin & Portnoo very close together, pretty inseparable and both Enniscrone and Carne above Rosses Point/County Sligo.

atb











Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 for 2015...
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2014, 08:45:41 AM »
Ally

Yes, in my very unscientific rankings, Portmarnock is 27 in GB&I, so its placement in Ireland makes sense for me.  Rather like many championship courses, Portmarnock is far from my favourites, but its quality strikes me as undeniable.  

I have gone back to Portstewart three times now and I fail to see how TEC, Tralee and Carne can claim to be superior.  I know in the big scheme of things a few steps on the ladder is no big issue, but I look at Portstewart as in special company...top 25 GB&I.  Whereas I see a course like TEC well down around 90...a significant drop off.  

Ciao


Let me make sure.  You have Portstewart above Portmarnock?

How many times have you seen the later?  





Ah but you didn’t answer my Question and I do think some of life’s most enduring pleasures reveal themselves with familiarity and it also  takes the knowledge that there are flashier and less enduring alternatives.

The McGarrigle’s first Album
Caldo Verde
Corde Du Roi on a cold day
….
Portmarnock Golf Club?





Thomas although I haven't been to either I doubt with Old Head or Adglass made the Pepper Book.   Arklow has a good case for inclusion.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 11:10:58 AM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Ed Tilley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 for 2015...
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2014, 09:55:15 AM »
This debate seems to be concentrating around the links courses so here is the top-100 listing but minus anything non-links -

Royal County Down
Portmarnock
Royal Portrush
Lahinch
Waterville
Ballybunnion Old
Tralee
European Club
Baltray/County Louth
Rosses Point/County Sligo
Ballyliffin Glashedy
The Island
Old Head
Enniscrone
Carne
Ballyliffin Old
Portstewart Strand
Donegal Murvagh
Portsalon
Dooks
Rosapenna Sandy Hills
Portmarnock Links
Royal Dublin
Doonbeg
Narin & Portnoo
Rosapenna OTM
Connemara
Castlerock
Seapoint
Portrush Valley
Rosslare

Strandhill
Dingle
Galway Bay
Laytown & Bettystown
Ardglass
St Annes
Dunfanaghy

I think that's them.

From what I've played I'd have Portsalon and Narin & Portnoo very close together, pretty inseparable and both Enniscrone and Carne above Rosses Point/County Sligo.

atb



As usual, I haven't played anywhere near as many courses as others on the site. The ones I've played are in red. From what I've played there are only a couple of things I'd disagree with:

- Waterville over Ballybunion Old. There is something intangible about Waterville that doesn't sit right for me, despite its obvious qualities - maybe it feels less Irish / more modern / American than others, if that doesn't sound ridiculous? Qualified as I haven't played Waterville post Fazio
- Tralee so close to Ballybunion. I love Tralee and it is certainly memorable but it's a bit OTT in places and just looks wrong next to Ballybunion on this list. I am at Inch in August and don't feel I can justify the green fee to my wife so will probably try Dooks instead. That said, I certainly think it is better than the courses below that I've played and can't comment on TEC, Baltray etc.
- Portrush Valley next to Rosslare on the list???? The Valley is as good as Portstewart for me, and that makes it a very fine course indeed.

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 for 2015...
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2014, 10:12:27 AM »
Little-known fact: all Irish courses legally reside within the boundaries of Lake Wobegon.  :D

...where all the courses are strong, all the links are good looking, and all the parkland courses are above average.


Yes. And if you're an Irish course, 30 percent of success is just showing up!
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 for 2015...
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2014, 10:23:10 AM »
Best 36-holes on one links site?
Ballybunnion, Lahinch, Rosapenna, Ballyliffin, Portstewart, Portrush, RCD, a-n-other?
atb

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 for 2015...
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2014, 02:58:33 PM »
Ally

Yes, in my very unscientific rankings, Portmarnock is 27 in GB&I, so its placement in Ireland makes sense for me.  Rather like many championship courses, Portmarnock is far from my favourites, but its quality strikes me as undeniable.  

I have gone back to Portstewart three times now and I fail to see how TEC, Tralee and Carne can claim to be superior.  I know in the big scheme of things a few steps on the ladder is no big issue, but I look at Portstewart as in special company...top 25 GB&I.  Whereas I see a course like TEC well down around 90...a significant drop off.  

Ciao


Let me make sure.  You have Portstewart above Portmarnock?

How many times have you seen the later?  





Ah but you didn’t answer my Question and I do think some of life’s most enduring pleasures reveal themselves with familiarity and it also  takes the knowledge that there are flashier and less enduring alternatives.

Spangles

I have only one game at Marnock.  Unfortunately, the cost of getting there and paying the green fee is rather too high when I consider the other personally more appealing alternatives.  Real life is hard  ;).

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jim Eder

Re: Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 for 2015...
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2014, 03:15:01 PM »
Ally,

You are exactly right. This list has opened my eyes to some courses that I never considered playing (or didn't even know existed) and I'll be adding a few on an upcoming trip. It will be fun to experience a few new places.

Thanks for the ideas everyone involved.

Tim Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Ireland Top 100 for 2015...
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2014, 04:11:10 PM »
Ally thanks for the reply
Just curious to know the reason 12 was closed all season, I assume it was winter damage but always thought it was 14 that got the brunt of it.