Piqua CC (Ohio) - closing

[BHoover]

Looks like yet another course will be closing. I just heard that Piqua CC in Ohio, which describes itself as a Ross dating back to 1896, will be closing at the end of the year. I don't know much about the course, nor can I speak to the architecture or the extent of the work that Ross did. It's a shame, however, that yet another golden age course is going by the wayside. Probably not surprising as this is a course located in a small town that once was a manufacturing center but now has an aging population that can no longer support a private club.

Some quick research suggests that Ross did 9 holes. Not sure about the rest.

[BCowan]

Great post.  I don't think it has any competition.  Some CC's would rather close than adjust to a Golf club and lower services levels.  Truly sad, was planning on playing the course in 15'.

[BHoover]

Piqua has a population of just over 20,000 and median annual family income of $41,000. That's not a recipe for a thriving golf club or country club. These former manufacturing towns can no longer support private clubs when the middle class and professionals leave town. It's not ghe first time nor will it be the last. The shame is that a piece of our history is lost when these towns dry up.

[BHoover]

From a Dayton sports history website (www.daytonareasportshistory.com):

"It was in 1896 that a group of Piqua sportsmen put in a few golf holes at a picnic ground east of town known as Kelley's Grove.  One of the men was Stanhope Boal, whose family operated the Favorite Stove & Range Company. Legend has it that Boal, who had never played golf, knocked the ball into the hole with his first swing and proclaimed, "This game is too easy." In 1920, the organization became known as Piqua Country Club.  Additional land was purchased and the renowned golf architect, Donald Ross, was hired to design a nine-hole course. A new clubhouse opened in the summer of 1921, but a week later it was destroyed by fire. Undaunted, the Piqua group rebuilt the clubhouse and hired its first golf pro."

I believe Jack Kidwell was also involved in a renovation at some point. He may have even been the one to design the second 9 holes. Looking to confirm that.

 

[BCowan]

Piqua has a population of just over 20,000 and median annual family income of $41,000. That's not a recipe for a thriving golf club or country club. These former manufacturing towns can no longer support private clubs when the middle class and professionals leave town. It's not ghe first time nor will it be the last. The shame is that a piece of our history is lost when these towns dry up.

Battle Creek, MI has 52,000 people and avg family income of $43,000.  They picked up 60 new members in the last year.  Making tough decisions usually is hard. 

[BHoover]

Piqua has a population of just over 20,000 and median annual family income of $41,000. That's not a recipe for a thriving golf club or country club. These former manufacturing towns can no longer support private clubs when the middle class and professionals leave town. It's not ghe first time nor will it be the last. The shame is that a piece of our history is lost when these towns dry up.

Battle Creek, MI has 52,000 people and avg family income of $43,000.  They picked up 60 new members in the last year.  Making tough decisions usually is hard. 

All this is mere speculation at this point. For all I know, someone coukd have offered the members money to purchsse the land. I don't know the reason.

[BCowan]

Piqua has a population of just over 20,000 and median annual family income of $41,000. That's not a recipe for a thriving golf club or country club. These former manufacturing towns can no longer support private clubs when the middle class and professionals leave town. It's not ghe first time nor will it be the last. The shame is that a piece of our history is lost when these towns dry up.

Battle Creek, MI has 52,000 people and avg family income of $43,000.  They picked up 60 new members in the last year.  Making tough decisions usually is hard. 

All this is mere speculation at this point. For all I know, someone coukd have offered the members money to purchsse the land. I don't know the reason.

lets hope, these are the courses that i hope stay afloat. 

[BHoover]

It's not just Ohio, but many of the country clubs and golf clubs in towns that at one time could support clubs will not survive. It's not ideal, but it's reality.

[Chris DeToro]

I saw this article a few days ago too--unfortunate, but agree that Piqua isn't exactly a bustling place and not exactly near anything.  Battle Creek at least has the benefit of a large corporation. 

Any idea what the plans for the land are?

[BCowan]

I saw this article a few days ago too--unfortunate, but agree that Piqua isn't exactly a bustling place and not exactly near anything.  Battle Creek at least has the benefit of a large corporation. 

Any idea what the plans for the land are?

Piqua is 25-30 mins north of the Dayton Loop and it is right off of i-75.  Many CC's don't want to adjust or know how to scale back to a golf club.  low key private golf can do well in a small town.  I can tell you countless stories of very great courses in decent-good markets struggling do to idiocy of the blinders. 

[Criss Titschinger]

Found this: http://www.otgt.org/Home-MVGolf/MVGA/Events/Past-Events/Piqua-Country-Club-Closing-2602C4316.html?LayoutID=#.VJBM0WTF9y4

A shame. I had Piqua on my radar for a 2015 round.

[Jason Thurman]

Ben, what insight can you give us to the decisions that the members of Piqua Country Club faced that led to them choosing to close their club? How do the choices that they made compare with the ones made by the members of Battle Creek Country Club? What would you have advised them to do instead? Please share your expertise. Does anyone know if Piqua allowed push carts?

I actually heard some really nice things about Piqua CC. Pete Balzer recommended I see it on one of my trips north. I used to work with a few clients in the Troy/Piqua area and also in Lima and Toledo, and I meant to stop in on one of those trips but never had time to do so.

The club's location is obviously a difficult one. It's much too far north to ever draw significant membership from Dayton, and Piqua itself is tiny town with very little industry. With the proximity to the interstate, small local population, and smaller local affluent population, it's practically a guarantee that the property would be worth more as anything other than a private golf course. The towns north of Dayton are all in a sort of "Basic" arms race to see who can plug in the most Panera, Old Navy, and Chipotle stores, and Piqua with its Red Lobster has fallen behind Tipp City and Troy in that battle. This smells like a prime opportunity for retail space development or residential development to me.

[JLahrman]

The towns north of Dayton are all in a sort of "Basic" arms race to see who can plug in the most Panera, Old Navy, and Chipotle stores, and Piqua with its Red Lobster has fallen behind Tipp City and Troy in that battle.

Might I recommend the Shell station/Subway in Botkins? Last time I passed there it featured the largest Shell billboard I've ever seen.

[Lou_Duran]

My wife is from nearby Lima, once a city with a population exceeding 50k, now under 39k.  I suspect that the leaders of the Piqua CC understand all the options and are making the proper decisions under the circumstances.  Rather than speculating on everything that they might be doing wrong, we may wish to consider that perhaps golf as we know it is just toast in many areas.

Looking at our society and the many demands liberal democracies in general place on the collective, I doubt that golf can thrive as a popular sport.  In Texas, where the economy is doing well (though dark clouds are sprouting in the horizon), my former club is on the short list to NLE.  Management has been unable to grow the membership which is below 60% of its high point, and apparently there is a developer who sees a higher use for the site at a price the owners are considering.  It is a very good course in an excellent location in terms of access and demographics, with low infrastructure costs (i.e. small clubhouse, no other amenities than golf).

It is somewhat ironic that the nearby city of Arlington is spending $15 Million on the redo of a municipal course that is not a shadow of my old club and only three miles away.  A new clubhouse, meeting and outings space, all the amenities of a nice CCFAD.  I don't know if the city's "investment" in its public facility is impacting the decision of the private club's owners, but it does raise the question in my mind that Arlington could easily buy my old club, make reasonable modifications and renovations to both, and probably save the taxpayers $5 Million+.  While the two events could be independent, I can't help but to think how the closing of the private club reduces supply to one segment and transfers some of whatever waning demand there is to the other.  Interesting times we live in.  



 

[BHoover]

My wife is from nearby Lima, once a city with a population exceeding 50k, now under 39k.  I suspect that the leaders of the Piqua CC understand all the options and are making the proper decisions under the circumstances.  Rather than speculating on everything that they might be doing wrong, we may wish to consider that perhaps golf as we know it is just toast in many areas.

Unfortunately I think you are right about golf as we know it being done in many areas. Despite the occasional exception, no amount of cost cutting or reduction in services, or the addition of large clubhouses or a significant restoration or renovation, will save clubs in shrinking towns that don't have the population with disposable income to support golf. It's just that simple in my humble opinion.

[BCowan]

Ben, what insight can you give us to the decisions that the members of Piqua Country Club faced that led to them choosing to close their club? How do the choices that they made compare with the ones made by the members of Battle Creek Country Club? What would you have advised them to do instead? Please share your expertise. Does anyone know if Piqua allowed push carts?

I actually heard some really nice things about Piqua CC. Pete Balzer recommended I see it on one of my trips north. I used to work with a few clients in the Troy/Piqua area and also in Lima and Toledo, and I meant to stop in on one of those trips but never had time to do so.

The club's location is obviously a difficult one. It's much too far north to ever draw significant membership from Dayton, and Piqua itself is tiny town with very little industry. With the proximity to the interstate, small local population, and smaller local affluent population, it's practically a guarantee that the property would be worth more as anything other than a private golf course. The towns north of Dayton are all in a sort of "Basic" arms race to see who can plug in the most Panera, Old Navy, and Chipotle stores, and Piqua with its Red Lobster has fallen behind Tipp City and Troy in that battle. This smells like a prime opportunity for retail space development or residential development to me.

Piqua population
2000    20,738       0.6%
2010    20,522       −1.0%

Funny you ask Jason, i called Piqua and talked to the GM today.  Learned quite a bit and I pretty much got the answer i thought.  The reason i brought up Battle Creek, is do to I'm tired of hearing small towns can't have a full golf club.  Battle Creek was pro active in getting members.  Both BC and Piqua are located off major E-ways.  Back in 99' the club took out a $2 million dollar loan and they had 400 members (that was progress in their minds)  Loose credit, pay later it is the Greenspan way!  They slowly lost members and didn't bring in new blood.  CC in a small town is tough.  Their clubhouse is open 11 months a year, many top clubs i know close there clubhouses down for 5 or 6 months to stop bleeding RED.  So now they owe $1.6 million to a Bank, and the club closes its doors at the end of the month.  Hopefully a few members who are trying to buy it from the bank, get that opportunity.  People forgot why people join clubs, for the GOLF COURSE. 

  The funny thing Jason is people our age travel far lengths to play low key private or affordable private golf.  Brian travels an hour to play his club, or he at least used to.  I have a friend who did the same to play my home course.  a 30 min drive up the e-way is nothing for your middle class golfer, wealthy people don't drive that far. 

   How this relates to me is the club I was raised at is a GOLF CLUB.  In the late 99's a few guys wanted to build a $6 million dollar clubhouse to attract new members.  Luckily it didn't pass and those guys went to the big I to rack up debt and assessments there!  It is spending issues that cause revenue issues, which then get blamed on the economy.  The GM also said 08 was if little impact on them.  Moraine and NCR aren't their competition.  for the record they allow trolleys. 

   So building housing in Piqua sounds like a good idea to you?  that makes no sense.  Please explain 400 member in 99' with basically the same population...

   

[C. Sturges]

I think at this point the best thing for us to do is go play Piqua, possibly for the last time.  I have never played there or heard about it until now.  Guessing if the are planning on closing they will allow outside play.  Any day the weather supposed to be above 45?
Any one interested?
chris

[Steve Lang]

  Sad to hear, i played it last in 91 as part of a Golf Ohio tour... almost every one of Ohio's 88 counties have a hidden gem course, like it..


I think Piqua was more known for Winan's Carriage House.. great chocolate treats..  and perhaps for the old nuke power plant that one could see from I-75...

[BHoover]

A couple years ago, Bill McKinley and Joe Leenheer did a photo tour of a final round at Acacia CC before it closed for good. I hope there is something similar here.

Acacia, incidentally, was purchased by a conservation group and turned into a permanent green space and natural area, much to the chagrin of tge mayor of Beachwood, Ohio, who was all ready to spend the tax revenue from commercial development of the property. Hopefully something similar happens here. If it can't stay a golf course, better to be preserved as green space.

[DFarron]

Having lived near this club for many years, it was easy to see the issues. As mentioned above the club over spent in refurbishing of the club house but did very little in promoting golf and the heritage of a Donald Ross golf course.

The argument has been made that the demise occurred because Piqua is a "small town", however 15 miles to the north Troy CC prospers with a golf course that is mediocre at best. Fifty miles north of Piqua, Shawnee CC in Lima (a town of 60,000) has a waiting list.  Why? Much more effective management and a good run of progressive, friendly golf professionals.

Having been in the business 32 years, I can safely say the golf drives the bus at any club. The general idea is that if golf can generate enough revenue to cover what the F&B and pool/tennis lose it will be a successful year.

Debt is also a HUGE issue at any club, as it is in our society. Clubs borrow for the most ridiculous reasons (rarely associated with golf) with no real debt retirement plans, then when a slow down occurs they can't pay the debt back.

[Jason Thurman]

My outlook isn't as bleak as Brian's or Lou's. I don't believe that golf in small towns is doomed. At the same time, though, it's silly to pretend location didn't play any factor in Piqua CC's struggles. Troy is actually 10 miles SOUTH of Piqua, and Troy CC is 10 minutes closer to Dayton than Piqua CC is. Any club in a town of 20,000 with a lack of industry needs to be able to draw members from surrounding towns, and that job is exponentially easier for a club located within 20 miles of a city of over 100,000 residents than it is for a club over 30 miles from such a city. That difference may seem small, but an extra 10 miles of driving plays a big factor in whether someone will join a local club or not.

These comparisons between Piqua/Battle Creek or Piqua/Lima are ridiculous. Piqua is a town of 20,000 whose largest employer is literally the local Wal-Mart. Lima proper is only double the size of Piqua, but it's the seat of a 100,000 person MSA with a health system that supports a few hundred physicians, among other large employers. Battle Creek is the hub of a 140,000 person MSA, making it almost 7 times the size of Piqua. It's the home of several multinational companies, and is closer to Kalamazoo (pop. 75,000, MSA pop. 330,000) than Piqua is to Dayton.

When a club that has existed for 118 years goes bankrupt, you can bet that there are numerous issues at play. Piqua CC no doubt accumulated too much debt. They also likely overspent in other areas, charged dues too high for the local economy to support, and faced an uphill battle due to a location that didn't offer a significant enough local population to pull members from. They may have also had marketing shortcomings and faced competition from nearby clubs, such as Troy CC. Businesses generally fail for systematic reasons. Regardless, it's unfortunate to see 9 more Ross holes and a 118 year old club disappearing. All I can really do is wish the best for the members and especially the staff, who are out a job at the peak of the holiday season.

Troy CC's own website discusses how they hit rock bottom just three or four years ago at around 150 members before rebounding to 300 today. I'd be curious to know how they grew so rapidly. As for what happens next with Piqua's property, I offered a guess that it will be purchased for retail or real estate. I have no opinion on whether either of those is a GOOD idea, but that's my guess at what happens.

[BCowan]

Having lived near this club for many years, it was easy to see the issues. As mentioned above the club over spent in refurbishing of the club house but did very little in promoting golf and the heritage of a Donald Ross golf course.

The argument has been made that the demise occurred because Piqua is a "small town", however 15 miles to the north Troy CC prospers with a golf course that is mediocre at best. Fifty miles north of Piqua, Shawnee CC in Lima (a town of 60,000) has a waiting list.  Why? Much more effective management and a good run of progressive, friendly golf professionals.

Having been in the business 32 years, I can safely say the golf drives the bus at any club. The general idea is that if golf can generate enough revenue to cover what the F&B and pool/tennis lose it will be a successful year.

Debt is also a HUGE issue at any club, as it is in our society. Clubs borrow for the most ridiculous reasons (rarely associated with golf) with no real debt retirement plans, then when a slow down occurs they can't pay the debt back.

+1, very well said.  Your last paragraph is spot on.  Also Lima Shawnee isn't any good imo.  

Jason,
Kalamazoo is 30 minutes from Battle Creek.  So your example of 10 miles (Troy is 10 miles closer) is a big deal doesn't hold water.   the 140,000 metro Battle creek has to include Kalamazoo.  Battle Creek picked up many members from outside Battle Creek, again proves that ten miles doesn't matter when you are talking quality.  Battle Creek also has competition with other area courses.  We can leave Battle Creek out.  Mr Farron made a great point with Troy CC.  

''you can bet that there are numerous issues at play''  $2 Million dollars is serious mistake, especially for a club that isn't in a large metro area, which wasn't even used on the Golf course, even another huge mistake.  Explain the 400 members in 1999 with 20,000 people?  Business fail when they go in debt, especially for a Clubhouse that doesn't bring in new members.  The lesson here is don't go in to debt, especially for a Clubhouse!  This is horrible and hopefully certain members can purchase the course at auction.  Hearts go out to the staff, very bad news.

[Jason Thurman]

''you can bet that there are numerous issues at play''  $2 Million dollars is serious mistake, especially for a club that isn't in a large metro area, which wasn't even used on the Golf course, even another huge mistake.

I'm glad we agree.

[Terry Lavin]

Ben, what insight can you give us to the decisions that the members of Piqua Country Club faced that led to them choosing to close their club? How do the choices that they made compare with the ones made by the members of Battle Creek Country Club? What would you have advised them to do instead? Please share your expertise. Does anyone know if Piqua allowed push carts?

I actually heard some really nice things about Piqua CC. Pete Balzer recommended I see it on one of my trips north. I used to work with a few clients in the Troy/Piqua area and also in Lima and Toledo, and I meant to stop in on one of those trips but never had time to do so.

The club's location is obviously a difficult one. It's much too far north to ever draw significant membership from Dayton, and Piqua itself is tiny town with very little industry. With the proximity to the interstate, small local population, and smaller local affluent population, it's practically a guarantee that the property would be worth more as anything other than a private golf course. The towns north of Dayton are all in a sort of "Basic" arms race to see who can plug in the most Panera, Old Navy, and Chipotle stores, and Piqua with its Red Lobster has fallen behind Tipp City and Troy in that battle. This smells like a prime opportunity for retail space development or residential development to me.

Piqua population
2000    20,738       0.6%
2010    20,522       −1.0%

Funny you ask Jason, i called Piqua and talked to the GM today.  Learned quite a bit and I pretty much got the answer i thought.  The reason i brought up Battle Creek, is do to I'm tired of hearing small towns can't have a full golf club.  Battle Creek was pro active in getting members.  Both BC and Piqua are located off major E-ways.  Back in 99' the club took out a $2 million dollar loan and they had 400 members (that was progress in their minds)  Loose credit, pay later it is the Greenspan way!  They slowly lost members and didn't bring in new blood.  CC in a small town is tough.  Their clubhouse is open 11 months a year, many top clubs i know close there clubhouses down for 5 or 6 months to stop bleeding RED.  So now they owe $1.6 million to a Bank, and the club closes its doors at the end of the month.  Hopefully a few members who are trying to buy it from the bank, get that opportunity.  People forgot why people join clubs, for the GOLF COURSE.  

  The funny thing Jason is people our age travel far lengths to play low key private or affordable private golf.  Brian travels an hour to play his club, or he at least used to.  I have a friend who did the same to play my home course.  a 30 min drive up the e-way is nothing for your middle class golfer, wealthy people don't drive that far.  

   How this relates to me is the club I was raised at is a GOLF CLUB.  In the late 99's a few guys wanted to build a $6 million dollar clubhouse to attract new members.  Luckily it didn't pass and those guys went to the big I to rack up debt and assessments there!  It is spending issues that cause revenue issues, which then get blamed on the economy.  The GM also said 08 was if little impact on them.  Moraine and NCR aren't their competition.  for the record they allow trolleys.  

   So building housing in Piqua sounds like a good idea to you?  that makes no sense.  Please explain 400 member in 99' with basically the same population...

  

The John Mellencamp of American Golf has spoken again!  How did we understand anything before the Small Town Golf Yoda came our way?  I shudder to think.

[BCowan]

Thanks, coming from a guy who is ''Often wrong, but never in doubt''.  I'll take that as a compliment.