Green Committee interviews?

[Joe Sponcia]

I know several on the discussion board have served on their clubs Green Committee now or in the past.  I have read past criteria topics describing the ideal profile/temperament...but wondering aloud how to formally vet these people?  Has anyone had or thought (if you were the Chairman) to interview prospective members or can anyone with mild interest simply join the group provided space allows in your experience?   

[jim_lewis]

Joe:

Here are a few thoughts that helped me as chairman.
First requirement:  Willingness to arrange their personal schedules around committee meetings. Show up!
Ask your superintendent for recommendations. He is likely to be aware of members with interest and some knowledge.
Prior experience at other clubs
Cross-section of playing skills to represent all club demographics.
Be sure to include a women who has credibility with the ladies.
Do try to avoid "complainers". Include some.
Identify a member who can succeed you as chairman
Consider past chairmen

I hope that helps a little.

[Brian Potash]

Joe,

I have been the Green Chairman at Hudson National in Westchester for the past 2+ years.  I think "interviewing" might be a bit much, but I can tell you what I have learned makes a good committee member -

Willingness to attend meetings, conf calls etc.  Scheduling can be a real pain, and it's helpful when people can make time and respond quickly.  Some people say they want to be involved, but then show that they're not really interested.  Might be hard to ask people to leave the committee without some confrontation.

Try to get a mix of playing abilities.  I think i have too many really low handicaps.  They see things differently than mid to higher handicaps.  I find myself put in the position of thinking on behalf of the average member.  It would be nice if I had more average members on the committee.

Try to get people who are not pushovers and will truly voice their own opinions, BUT will support you and the committee even if their view isn't the one that prevails.  Try to think how this will play out with specific people before asking them to join.

Try to include newer members of the club.  Many committees are made up of the same group of members who have been around forever. It's nice to have fresh opinions from new members.

Good Luck.  At the end of the day a great super makes a good chairman.  I shudder to think of the how bad it would be with a super who wasn't top notch.

Brian

[Mark Chaplin]

Joe - keep your committee as you and the Superintendent and it should go fine. Clubs employ a professional person to look after the course, your job is to give him the finances to do his job and set a framework. That doesn't require anyone else.

[Paul Gray]

Never mind an interview, set an exam.

Simply sit them down and set a three hour limit to write no more than 5,000 words. Set a title such as:

Compare and Contrast the Architectural Styles of Colt and MacKenzie.

or maybe

Augusta was the First Modern Golf Course. Discuss.

It is highly unlikely that anyone will pass and you will be forced to continue with a committee of one. 

[JMEvensky]

Joe - keep your committee as you and the Superintendent and it should go fine. Clubs employ a professional person to look after the course, your job is to give him the finances to do his job and set a framework. That doesn't require anyone else.

This X infinity.

You and your club need to decide which is more important-- the care and feeding of the golf course or placating a handful of demographics.

It rarely happens as Mark Chaplin recommends,but that's the best way.

[Rob Marshall]

Joe - keep your committee as you and the Superintendent and it should go fine. Clubs employ a professional person to look after the course, your job is to give him the finances to do his job and set a framework. That doesn't require anyone else.

This is so true. Forget the committee. It is a complete waste of time.

[Joe Sponcia]

Joe,

I have been the Green Chairman at Hudson National in Westchester for the past 2+ years.  I think "interviewing" might be a bit much, but I can tell you what I have learned makes a good committee member -

Willingness to attend meetings, conf calls etc.  Scheduling can be a real pain, and it's helpful when people can make time and respond quickly.  Some people say they want to be involved, but then show that they're not really interested.  Might be hard to ask people to leave the committee without some confrontation.

Try to get a mix of playing abilities.  I think i have too many really low handicaps.  They see things differently than mid to higher handicaps.  I find myself put in the position of thinking on behalf of the average member.  It would be nice if I had more average members on the committee.

Try to get people who are not pushovers and will truly voice their own opinions, BUT will support you and the committee even if their view isn't the one that prevails.  Try to think how this will play out with specific people before asking them to join.

Try to include newer members of the club.  Many committees are made up of the same group of members who have been around forever. It's nice to have fresh opinions from new members.

Good Luck.  At the end of the day a great super makes a good chairman.  I shudder to think of the how bad it would be with a super who wasn't top notch.

Brian

Brian,

Thanks for the response.  Maybe a 'formal' interview is a bit much, but at least having an extended lunch to see how the person sees themselves on the committee, what they might bring, etc....might help in determining their suitability.  What if you get a person that is gung ho but doesn't know jack squat?  Are you teaching this person for six months, spoon-feeding USGA articles, copying them on past writings of the architectural greats we all revere, and loaning them a portion of your library or do you just accept them if they are willing to attend?  

With regard to your low handicaps, are they typical RTJ/penal school advocates?  It sounds that may be the case from your response.  Interestingly, I have heard the same philosophy championed by bogey golfers who don't want the scratches shooting 62's.  

Mark,

I agree with your premise, but what super is willing to take the heat for tree removal for instance, especially on a non-pedigreed course?  If the  club has a well documented Master Plan, I believe the task could be easier, but I don't think most do?  I may be wrong though.

Paul,

I was kind of thinking the same thing but didn't know how to construct a 'quiz'.  An essay of questions would be a good solution.  

[Brian Potash]

Joe,

I would just be careful.  Having any type of interview/lunch process when someone is attempting to volunteer for something, and then not offering them the position could get a bit awkward, but that's your call

yes lower handicaps want things harder, which they see as more challenging for their games, but might make the course too challenging for the average player. 

I'm not sure how much GCA type knowledge (if any) is required for the job.  Most times you will be working with an architect and/or master plan already.

I think having green committees act as architect, regardless of their GCA pedigree is a dangerous proposition.

.

[Joe Sponcia]

Brian,

Yeah, I understand how it might feel...but could also see where some could be boat anchors to the group if they simply show up or rarely contribute.  As I understand, the Committee's function is to decimate information, not be a steering group per se.  I don't think as many clubs have Master Plans or active architects on retainer as one would assume though.  I think as you do, that despite how much we might know or act like, we aren't architects by trade so best to leave the work to a professional.

This is a theoretical exercise.  I am on my clubs Committee but not the Chair.  I was discussing this in general terms as I have friends at other clubs that have varying degrees of discussions shall we say.   My old college roommate is a super at a private club and he has had really great Committees that 'get' the history of his Langford course, but some who just want to plant everywhere - no continuity. 

Thanks again for your response.

[Jason Topp]

There are usually 4-5 constituencies in a club that deeply care about the golf course.  You need to have a plan to communicate with each of those groups and have them supportive or tolerant of what the committee is doing.  Ideally, you have the leader of each group in the fold.   

[Mark Chaplin]

Joe - At one world top 100 club the superintendent cuts down a tree every week, he never tells a soul and hardly anyone notices. If he cut down 52 at once he'd probably be released!

A well documented plan can be easily formed with soundings from members and sign off by the management board. All a greens committee does is water down responsibility so no one ever sticks their head above the parapet and takes responsibility for decisions.

[Bill Brightly]

Brian, I'd ask why the member wants to be on your committee. Is he someone with a true interest in learning what goes on; a true interest in helping your club? Or does he have a specific agenda; things he wants to fix?

[BCrosby]

Crusty's list is a good one.

I would add that you should resist the urge to poll the general membership about your decisions. If you are comfortable that your choices have been well vetted by your GC, stand-by your decisions. There will be people who are unhappy, but that comes with the territory. Dissenters will have the comfort of knowing that almost nothing you and your GC can do to the golf course is irredeemable. 

Bob

[Steve Lapper]

Joe,

I would just be careful.  Having any type of interview/lunch process when someone is attempting to volunteer for something, and then not offering them the position could get a bit awkward, but that's your call

yes lower handicaps want things harder, which they see as more challenging for their games, but might make the course too challenging for the average player. 

I'm not sure how much GCA type knowledge (if any) is required for the job.  Most times you will be working with an architect and/or master plan already.

I think having green committees act as architect, regardless of their GCA pedigree is a dangerous proposition.

.

Joe,

As a past member of several greens committees and the chair of one now, I add the following:

Play several rounds with the candidate and discuss the course. It's much easier to get a genuine feel for what is driving that person's opinion when out on a casual round.

Yes, tell them upfront how much time you think it'll take and ask for a full commitment to that time.

Frequently, some terms at different times in a club's evolution require different skills. Interviewing, hiring and sourcing skills are immensely valuable and most private clubs have people with talent for that.

I disagree with Brian about working with an architect (less so about a master plan...which infers that process with widespread support in just in need of continuation). So many (mostly old-school) clubs with otherwise decent courses have existing, or past, ties to a particular architect that is NOT SERVING THE COURSE CORRECTLY.  A good number of very eminent and prestigious clubs have fallen into this trap. It then becomes the committees job to educate themselves on GCA and different talents to achieve the right future for the course.

For the record, I hope a fellow NJ GCA'er chimes in here as he's probably the single best GC chairman I've ever known of. He successfully took a classic AWT and combined with a supporting club president to bring it into the 21st century. Of course, he managed to accomplish that with humor, hoodwinking, and tenacity....talents previously absent at that place!

Finally, If you ask the candidate what their goal is and they answer: "To leave the course better than I found it," then you know that person has at least the right intent and deserves further merit.

[Ian Mackenzie]

This is a topic that can be rather controversial at many clubs.
I have found that it helps to point to 3rd party references when making suggestions like this.

The following can be a good resource: http://www.usga.org/uploadedFiles/News_Headlines/GreenCommittee.pdf

[MClutterbuck]

I prefer keeping it to 1 or 2 people, often the Club Captain and his deputy, both reporting to and interacting with the Board is more than enough when you have a professional superintendent.

[Chris DeToro]

When I was a new member at Battle Creek CC, a 1919 Willie Park course, I was "recruited" to the greens committee because the head of the committee knew I was a decent player (single digit) and was constantly out on the golf course.  In fact, the entire committee was made up primarily of the people who played the most and could get a sense of how the course was playing and what other members were saying that were less involved.  So maybe it's not an interviewing process but more of an observational process for you to take on without anyone else's knowledge

[corey miller]

I have a hard time understanding how any good can come out of a Superintendent being involved in  selecting  the the members that will oversee his area. 

USGA puts out a lot of propaganda about the maintenance process at various clubs but the fact remains who your Super is is more important than the composition of the committee. 

Do you have a self-starter interested in the playing conditions and the architecture of the course (most likely the guys that populate this site) or do you have someone most interested in job security and appealing to the lowest common denominator within the club?

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve Lapper,

That chairperson had several things going for him.

He was very intelligent and like some, he had a "vision" in terms of where the course should be in the future, keeping in mind it's past.

Critical to his efforts was having the backing of the President of the club.

Without that, you're doomed to failure.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Is the club in the original post a golf club or a country club?  That makes a difference.

In my experience in club committee and other non-profit service, the number of people who are willing and able to devote the time required to be an effective volunteer is limited.  My wife (a city council member) finds the same thing is true with filling positions on city commissions in our small town.  The 80/20 rule might be closer to 90/10 in these situations.

Find folks who represent various groups at the club, are willing to spend the time necessary, have an interest in the area, are fun to spend time with in a room, and have a strong committee chair to lead them.

Steve, Pat...are your referring to RCC?

[Mark Chaplin]

Joe what is the role of the greens committee? I see the management of the Superintendent something like this;

His line manager is the Club Manager who assists with HR issues, etc.

Changes to to course should all go through the club architect who makes any necessary recommendations, the Greens chair and Superintendent put together the plan for sign off by the board of directors.

Technical stuff is not the place for laymen to get involved, the consultant agronomist works with the Superintendent and the Super reports to you but you let him get on with it.

Annually the Superintendent and Greens Chair make a work and finance plan for the following year(s) and this is presented to the board of directors for sign off.

No where in this process is there room for a bunch of well meaning meddlers to complicate things. If you can see a place for a committee I'd be interested to hear what their role is.

[Paul Gray]

This is a topic that can be rather controversial at many clubs.
I have found that it helps to point to 3rd party references when making suggestions like this.

The following can be a good resource: http://www.usga.org/uploadedFiles/News_Headlines/GreenCommittee.pdf

Assuming that you must have a committee, there's some merit in this. Effectively, include Dr. Mac or Ross or whoever on the committee and dare the membership/committee to argue!

[Mike Policano]

Joe,

Mark hit the starting point - what is the role of the Green Committee? At the club that I served as Green Chair, the role of the committee was to serve as a communication vehicle between the Board, the super and the rest of the members. The committee had no decision making authority.

Since we were embarking on implementing our consulting architect's master plan update, we selected a cross section of members that we believed would help us achieve our communication goals. We needed to educate the committee and then as many members as we could as to why we were doing work on a course that the members generally thought was excellent before any work was done.

For example, we invited a 40 year member who played bridge in the grill everyday and complained about everything. He had a lot of touch points with a lot of members. He said why would you pick me? I am not going to agree with anything you say. I replied, I don't want you to agree. I want you to understand the process we are using so that when you complain, you will at least know we are doing nothing without the approval of our consulting architect. You are free to agree or disagree as you see fit.

He turned out to be an excellent member of the committee. One of my favorites.

[Terry Lavin]

Mike is correct on all counts. In general, your role is to get educated, get close to the super and act as a liaison to the membership. You'll perform your role well if you communicate what the experts taught you and the decision makers. It's much more difficult for a club contrarian to argue with an expert as opposed to a fellow member. Most importantly, I'd skip the interview process, making it easier to avoid people who "really want to get on" the committee. In club leadership, those are the folks to avoid or neutralize.