Ranking of DJR courses in upstate NY

[mark chalfant]

8.0   Monroe

7.0  CC  Buffalo
       Glens Falls

6.0  Oak  Hill  West
       Teugaga

5.5   Oak Hill  East
        Irondequoit

[Ed Homsey]

JP--I put Teugaga ahead of CCB and Monroe because it strikes me as a course that is relatively untouched,  i.e. closer to its original form.  I enjoy the terrain at Teugaga, though admittedly there is nothing to compare with the quarry holes at CCB.  I find that it is harder for me to replay my rounds at CCB or Monroe, but at Teugaga, each hole has characteristics that stand out in my mind.  It's a course I would never grow tired of, though I would also say that about CCB and Monroe. 

You ask about holes 5, 6, and 7 at CCR.  Holes 5 and 6 are "that bad", but certainly not great.  Rather awkward, in my opinion.  Hole 7 is a very nice par 3, though I've heard there has been thought of realigning it relative to the small brook that runs through it.  But, I think that the rhythm of the course has been lost from its original design.  I agree completely with your assessment of the Hanss renovation.

[Tom_Doak]

Any chance you could break down why OHCC is 6 and Glens Falls is an 8?

Better property:  Glens Falls
More interesting routing:  Glens Falls
Better greens contours:  Glens Falls

The last one is the biggest difference to me.  Oak Hill's greens [East course] have all been flattened for tournament speeds; some of the corner hole locations have been lost; and in truth they didn't look like they were ever a great set of greens.  The West course greens are certainly more interesting than the East, but not as good as Glens Falls or Monroe.

When did Oak Hill flatten ALL of their greens for tournament speeds? I knew that they took some of the slope out of the fifth green which is a Fazio green and there was also some talk about "rebuilding" the thirteenth green for the 2013 PGA Championship but it was ultimately not approved by the membership. ...not sure about any other changes in the greens on the east.

JP [and Rob]:

I don't know when Oak Hill made changes to their greens over the years -- whether some were done by Trent Jones and others done by Fazio, or whether some were just softened in-house over the years -- or even if they HAVE changed that many of them.  [I do know that #5, #6, #15 and #18 were all changed by Fazio, and #4 by Trent Jones I believe.]  Admittedly, my trip around this fall was just after they'd aerified, so I couldn't roll a ball on the greens -- but I looked at every single green pretty closely, and after playing Longmeadow and Glens Falls and Teugega the three days before, they seemed neutered by comparison. 

Perhaps they just weren't one of Ross' great sets of greens to start with.  Oak Hill has been the appointed tournament venue since W.W. II because of the facility around it, and all of those tournaments have increased the reputation of the course beyond what's in the ground.  I don't remember anyone in the past singling out Oak Hill for having a great set of greens ... Tom Weiskopf's comments about preserving Ross courses were mostly a reaction to the routing changes made by Fazio.

[Rob Marshall]

Any chance you could break down why OHCC is 6 and Glens Falls is an 8?

Better property:  Glens Falls
More interesting routing:  Glens Falls
Better greens contours:  Glens Falls

The last one is the biggest difference to me.  Oak Hill's greens [East course] have all been flattened for tournament speeds; some of the corner hole locations have been lost; and in truth they didn't look like they were ever a great set of greens.  The West course greens are certainly more interesting than the East, but not as good as Glens Falls or Monroe.

When did Oak Hill flatten ALL of their greens for tournament speeds? I knew that they took some of the slope out of the fifth green which is a Fazio green and there was also some talk about "rebuilding" the thirteenth green for the 2013 PGA Championship but it was ultimately not approved by the membership. ...not sure about any other changes in the greens on the east.

JP [and Rob]:

I don't know when Oak Hill made changes to their greens over the years -- whether some were done by Trent Jones and others done by Fazio, or whether some were just softened in-house over the years -- or even if they HAVE changed that many of them.  [I do know that #5, #6, #15 and #18 were all changed by Fazio, and #4 by Trent Jones I believe.]  Admittedly, my trip around this fall was just after they'd aerified, so I couldn't roll a ball on the greens -- but I looked at every single green pretty closely, and after playing Longmeadow and Glens Falls and Teugega the three days before, they seemed neutered by comparison. 

Perhaps they just weren't one of Ross' great sets of greens to start with.  Oak Hill has been the appointed tournament venue since W.W. II because of the facility around it, and all of those tournaments have increased the reputation of the course beyond what's in the ground.  I don't remember anyone in the past singling out Oak Hill for having a great set of greens ... Tom Weiskopf's comments about preserving Ross courses were mostly a reaction to the routing changes made by Fazio.

Oak Hill East has been the appointed tournament venue since WW II because of the facility around it? I don't think that Ernie Els said, "It is the best, fairest, and toughest championship golf course I've ever played in all my years as a tournament professional." because of facility around the what's in the ground. JAT

[Ronald Montesano]

Oak Hill East has been the appointed tournament venue since WW II because of the facility around it? I don't think that Ernie Els said, "It is the best, fairest, and toughest championship golf course I've ever played in all my years as a tournament professional." because of facility around the what's in the ground. JAT

Was there a line of professional golfers behind him, nodding in agreement?

Oak Hill East is exacting, proven, malleable and has a tremendous ground plan, four reasons why the PGA returns its events (Senior PGA, PGA, Ryder Cup) to it with regularity.

[Rob Marshall]

Oak Hill East has been the appointed tournament venue since WW II because of the facility around it? I don't think that Ernie Els said, "It is the best, fairest, and toughest championship golf course I've ever played in all my years as a tournament professional." because of facility around the what's in the ground. JAT

Was there a line of professional golfers behind him, nodding in agreement?

Oak Hill East is exacting, proven, malleable and has a tremendous ground plan, four reasons why the PGA returns its events (Senior PGA, PGA, Ryder Cup) to it with regularity.

Don't know if there was a line but Tiger made essentially the same statement.

They certainly don't return because they have a great clubhouse, driving range, and maintenance facility...........

[Ronald Montesano]

All of those are part of it. Rochester golf community is another part of it. Having a Harmon in the pro shop is part of it.

[Rob Marshall]

All of those are part of it. Rochester golf community is another part of it. Having a Harmon in the pro shop is part of it.

All true but without a great golf course there are no US Opens, PGA's, and Ryder Cup. To say the facilities around the course are why they got majors is a little harsh  IMHO and no disrespect is intended.

[Ronald Montesano]

Rob,

I think these types of strong-willed yet respectful debates make GCA a great place.

I have yet to play either OHCC course, although I've walked the East with a camera during numerous events and reported on each.

As such, I cannot address what Tom Doak intimates about the greens with personal rejoinders. If fortunate, I'll remedy this shortfall in 2015!

[Rob Marshall]

Rob,

I think these types of strong-willed yet respectful debates make GCA a great place.

I have yet to play either OHCC course, although I've walked the East with a camera during numerous events and reported on each.

As such, I cannot address what Tom Doak intimates about the greens with personal rejoinders. If fortunate, I'll remedy this shortfall in 2015!

There aren't a lot of tiered greens on the East but even under everyday playing conditions you need to keep the ball below the hole on most greens. Also I think it's a spectacular piece of property with some really nice elevation changes as I'm sure you've seen when you have been there for events. Allens Creek winding thru the course and coming into play on 1,5,6,7,10, 11, and 13 also adds to the property. Granted on some holes you would have to hit a horrible shot for it to be in play. I'm fortunate to get to play there occasionally. It's not the best course I've ever played but it's better than most.

[JNC Lyon]

Any chance you could break down why OHCC is 6 and Glens Falls is an 8?

Better property:  Glens Falls
More interesting routing:  Glens Falls
Better greens contours:  Glens Falls

The last one is the biggest difference to me.  Oak Hill's greens [East course] have all been flattened for tournament speeds; some of the corner hole locations have been lost; and in truth they didn't look like they were ever a great set of greens.  The West course greens are certainly more interesting than the East, but not as good as Glens Falls or Monroe.

I can't comment on Glens Falls since I have not played it, but I have always felt the greens at Oak Hill's West Course are better than those at Monroe. For starters, the West has 17 of 18 greens that are original, while Monroe only has 15 (1, 11, and 12 are re-done, and the last one is bad as any of the Fazio schlock across the way at Oak Hill East). The one non-original green at Oak Hill West, #9, is actually a personal favorite of mine, and it yields a ton of variety day-to-day on the second shot. Players are wise to check the hole location when on the 7th green, because being on the opposite side of the fairway from the pin will mean the golfer will struggle to make a 4. The green, combined with the hole's dramatic terrain, makes it one of the most interesting and most difficult 360-yard par fours I've seen.

Don't get me wrong Monroe has several great green complexes. I'm a big fan of the greens at 4, 5, 7, 9, 15, 17, and especially 18 over there, but these greens are still not as original and consistently exacting as my favorite greens on the West Course, 3, 4, and 6:

The pushed up, wild green on OHW's 3rd takes an ordinary mid-length par four and turns it into one of the toughest in the area. It doesn't matter where you put the pin here--any hole location is likely to be slippery and highly inaccessible with even a short iron. Oak Hill's 3rd is a great example of a hole where the green is a timeless defense against technology, because even a 60-yard wedge will have players puckering up a bit. I'd submit that, the Monroe tiger tees excluded, 3 at Oak Hill West manages to be tougher and more interesting than any long par four at Monroe despite having only one bunker.

The 4th is, by a pretty wide margin, my favorite short par three I have played. Why? Because the green site is so large and has so many sections, the golfer could face one of several types of shots on any given day. The hole is probably three-quarters of a shot tougher with the pin cut in the back left than it is cut down in the gully in the middle of the green. And with no pin sheets on the West Course, the golfer will not know until he walks onto the tee whether he is a facing a serious birdie opportunity or a grind-it-out par. I much prefer this to the 8th at Monroe, which, despite a more interesting setting, is not as compelling to play on a regular basis.

Finally, the 6th. The only par five over 500 yards on the West Course sorely misses its lost fairway bunkering, but it makes up for with a green site that was built to last. Most players cannot reach this par five in two, but two good shots will leave you with a wedge shot well inside 100 yards. Easy, right? Try hitting a half wedge off a tight lie to a green site that feels like it sits directly above you. Got that down? Now make sure you keep it on the right level, no small feat since the green features a wicked horseshoe-shaped tier that sends approach shots bouncing all sorts of directions. Although the push-up green at Monroe's 9th is highly unusual and a lot of fun, it is still softer than the 6th on the West.

In the past, I've also done a comparison of the green sites at the well-regarded 14th at Monroe compared with the lesser known (but more dynamic) 11th at OHW. I can't find it in the search engine (although I did find a ton of stuff on Monroe I've written in the past), but bonus points to anybody who can.

Oak Hill West is by no means without flaws. The course misses its original fairway bunkering. There are still tree issues on holes like 3, 12, 16, and 17. Backboards behind greens like 7 and 15, which could be mowed as fairway to create all sorts of fun approach options, remain as thick rough. But, aside from a little repetition between greens like 5, 7, 16, and 18, the West Course knocks the ball out of the park in terms of the greens. I also prefer its routing to that at Monroe, and I think the terrain is just a bit stronger at OHW as well. A pure restoration of the West would likely make it a contender for one of the best parkland courses in the Northeast.

At the end of the day, you can't wrong playing either course passing through the area. But, mainly because of the greens, terrain, and routing, West is best in my book.

My newest, completely official rankings of the Ross courses in Rochester:

1. Oak Hill West
2. Monroe
3. CC of Rochester
4. Oak Hill East
5. Irondequoit
6. Brook Lea

[Tom_Doak]

JNC:

Thanks for your rundown above.  It's interesting to me because on my visit to Oak Hill, the West course was crawling with golfers [as the East had been closed for aerification], so there were a handful of greens I did not get a good look at ... and #4 and #6 were two of the those.  Sorry I missed them!  I did like #3 a lot, but I was basing my analysis more on the back nine greens. 

[Matt Albanese]

Unfortunately, and perhaps surprisingly, I haven't seen a few of the courses on the list. However, here is how I would rank the ones I have played:

Oak Hill (West)
Monroe GC
Oak Hill (East)
Irondequoit CC
Mark Twain GC
Bellevue CC

I would love to play Glens Falls, Teugega, CCR and CCB as they would likely be ahead of some of the courses I have listed.

Matt

[Matt Frey, PGA]

Not that the course is in the same arena as most of the courses already discussed on this thread, but Malone (New York) Golf Club's East Course has seven untouched holes by Ross (and Willard G. Wilkinson).

These seven holes are clearly the best on the course (and facility, as the club as a RTJ Sr.-designed West Course) and have some terrific green complexes. Some green space has been lost over the years, but not a ton.

However, tons of trees, mainly pine, have either been allowed to grow or have been planted over the years (see photos below). Overall, a solid course, especially for the price!

The B+W photos are from "A History of the Malone Golf Club" (1987 / 2003).

This photo shows how many trees have been put onto the property since the 1950s:



Compared to this 2010 photo from a different angle (the green complex in the center of the B+W, No. 3, has largely remained unchanged, sans a topshot bunker, but look at all the new trees!   ) :


And here is a Google Earth aerial of the first seven holes from 2011:


Finally, here is the original routing:


*A note on the routing: the 8th hole is still in its original location, but I believe a few minor changes have been made (other than addition of trees), such as two fairway bunkers. Also, No. 18 of the West Course was the old No.9, which has also seen some changes through the years (tree additions and removal of fairway bunkers). The original 10th hole is still in existence but is only used as a practice hole and for short game lessons...I believe the green has been worked on a bit too.

[John Blain]

Matt-

Thanks for posting those aerials, very interesting. As you know I have played the east course many, many times over the past 25 years or so. I have always thought it was a fun course and that it has six holes that would be considered great holes on any course in America: 2,3,5,11,13 & 14.
The par three holes in particular (3,11,14) are just outstanding and the par five fifth is one of the great roller coaster par fives you will play anywhere. What a shame those pine trees were ever planted. Since you were there as an assistant they have taken out nearly all the trees around the green on the par 3 eleventh and it looks incredible! Same for the par three fourteenth which is one of the great drop shot par three's that you will play anywhere.
Lots to like about Malone especially, like you said, given the price. Too bad it's so far removed from civilization

Hope you're well.
John Blain

[Matt Frey, PGA]

John! Good to hear from you. I have stayed in touch with Derek and John and have heard about their tree removal programs on Nos. 11 and 14, although I haven't seen them in person or any photos of No. 11, but I could imagine how beautiful it must be now.

Here's a shot of No. 14 from September, courtesy of Russell Kirk:



How amazing would that hole be with no trees around the green? But it's already much improved compared to what it used to look like:



I know Derek and Scott Andrews, their longtime super, has been working with the USGA on tree removal for close to four years or so now, most of which are being removed for turf health reasons. While I was working at Malone, there were a lot of trees removed near Nos. 2, 8, 14 West greens and Nos. 6 and 15 East greens. I'm really hoping to get up there sometime in 2015 and play the courses again.

You're right about the par 3s on the East Course, all of which are quite good...No. 14 is very difficult and intimidating but a ton of fun. And the par-5 Fifth? Great hole for everyone (long-knockers and short hitters like me)!

[John Blain]

Matt-

Totally agree on #14. The tree removal they did was an incredible improvement but for some reason they just couldn't bring themselves to take them all. It's a shame because if they took the remainder it would be spectacular. Same on #11. They left a few that don't belong. I am guessing it was a compromise to appease the tree hugging members who thought the hole would be "ruined" by taking any trees at all.
The other par three we didn't mention is #6. As you know there is a beautiful stream up the right side of that hole that is completely blocked out by trees almost all of which are pines. There are two trees right in front of the right bunker that make the hole play almost like a dogleg! Simply getting rid of all those ridiculous pines would transform it into a really pretty par three. I have mentioned this to Derek but I believe there has been resistance from the membership who more than likely believe w/o those trees the hole would be "too easy". Truly the definition of insanity

John

[Matt Frey, PGA]

John: You're right about No. 6 and the trees along the right side. They started to clear some of them out while I was there, but most were out of play and only were removed to give golfers a view of the stream. Same on No. 2 West. Hopefully they continue and take out some that are actually in play and affect the golfer's shot, especially when the back right tee box is used!