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Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Level of sub's increase at private members clubs
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2014, 06:11:33 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on November 13, 2014, 06:05:52 PM
There are more courses in the US with dues less than $1000 per year than in the UK. I'm a member of two of them.

As a percentage?

Either way, good.
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In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Level of sub's increase at private members clubs
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2014, 06:20:03 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on November 13, 2014, 06:05:52 PM
There are more courses in the US with dues less than $1000 per year than in the UK. I'm a member of two of them.

But as  % of the total number I very much doubt it. ;)
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David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Level of sub's increase at private members clubs
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2014, 06:36:36 PM »
"There are more courses in the US with dues less than $1000 per year than in the UK. I'm a member of two of them. "

This, like many of Mr. Kavanaugh's statements on this board, should be viewed with more than a little skepticism. I am certain on a percentage basis it is wrong and I am doubtful it is correct even on an absolute basis.   
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BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Level of sub's increase at private members clubs
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2014, 06:44:22 PM »
Quote from: David_Tepper on November 13, 2014, 06:36:36 PM
"There are more courses in the US with dues less than $1000 per year than in the UK. I'm a member of two of them. "

This, like many of Mr. Kavanaugh's statements on this board, should be viewed with more than a little skepticism. I am certain on a percentage basis it is wrong and I am doubtful it is correct even on an absolute basis.   


I always just assume that everything he writes is bull$hit and written merely to stir up trouble. Much easier than trying to deal with him.
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David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Level of sub's increase at private members clubs
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2014, 06:48:08 PM »
"I always just assume that everything he writes is bull$hit and written merely to stir up trouble. Much easier than trying to deal with him."

Brian H. -

That's not a bad idea either! ;)

DT
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Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Level of sub's increase at private members clubs
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2014, 07:02:01 PM »
JK how many a Outpost Club members play your club(s) for a fee at 9am on a Saturday or Sunday morning? The Outpost Club provide discreet revenue to clubs at times when the courses are usually empty.

At a Deal I'd guess 5% of our green fee revenue is from the US, certainly less than from Belgium. Only on the Perry bus routes will you find significant US based green fee play.
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Cave Nil Vino

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Level of sub's increase at private members clubs
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2014, 07:33:20 PM »
If there are 10,000 sub $1000 clubs in America what difference does it make if there are 6,000 or 1,000 that are more expensive. Who cares about percentage if inexpensive golf is available to anyone who desires it?  Btw: The two sub $1,000 clubs where I am a member both have had past Master's champions win their local tournament. These are not crap clubs as one was even a regular PGA tour stop for a number of years.

I get it, the American fat bloated wasteful stereotype sells. It is hard to prove otherwise.
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Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Level of sub's increase at private members clubs
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2014, 08:05:32 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on November 13, 2014, 07:33:20 PM
If there are 10,000 sub $1000 clubs in America what difference does it make if there are 6,000 or 1,000 that are more expensive. Who cares about percentage if inexpensive golf is available to anyone who desires it?  Btw: The two sub $1,000 clubs where I am a member both have had past Master's champions win their local tournament. These are not crap clubs as one was even a regular PGA tour stop for a number of years.

I get it, the American fat bloated wasteful stereotype sells. It is hard to prove otherwise.

What are the names of the clubs?
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If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Level of sub's increase at private members clubs
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2014, 08:08:52 PM »
Quail Creek Country Club and Lawrence County County Club. Bob Goalby and Fuzzy Zoeller respectively.
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Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Level of sub's increase at private members clubs
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2014, 08:13:50 PM »
I can't name a ton of clubs with dues under $1000 in the US, but I can name a lot with dues right in that ballpark and under $1500. I plan to soon join one myself, actually. It's an excellent course - I rank it in my personal top 10 and would give it a 7 or an 8 on a 1-10 scale.

Every once in a while, someone in the UK will post about how incredible their model is and how it would save American golf. I always laugh when I read this; America is full of courses that work exactly like private clubs in the UK. We call them semi-private - members play unlimited golf for a usually reasonable annual fee while guests can pay a green fee..
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"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Level of sub's increase at private members clubs
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2014, 08:46:18 PM »
Quote from: Mark Chaplin on November 13, 2014, 07:02:01 PM
JK how many a Outpost Club members play your club(s) for a fee at 9am on a Saturday or Sunday morning? The Outpost Club provide discreet revenue to clubs at times when the courses are usually empty.

At a Deal I'd guess 5% of our green fee revenue is from the US, certainly less than from Belgium. Only on the Perry bus routes will you find significant US based green fee play.

I have no idea where the truth lies in the Outpost Club. I just spoke to one of their "Home Clubs" and was told that Outpost members can only play once a year and pay full fees. Either way, it stinks. My beef is them taking it public in Golf Digest and embarrassing dues paying members. The constant bragging on the Twitter feed is only slightly worse.
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Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Level of sub's increase at private members clubs
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2014, 08:52:06 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on November 13, 2014, 08:08:52 PM
Quail Creek Country Club and Lawrence County County Club. Bob Goalby and Fuzzy Zoeller respectively.

Regular membership at quail creek is $2277

Young adult 18-26 us around $750
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 08:55:02 PM by Rob Marshall »
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If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Level of sub's increase at private members clubs
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2014, 09:01:44 PM »
Quote from: Rob Marshall on November 13, 2014, 08:52:06 PM
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on November 13, 2014, 08:08:52 PM
Quail Creek Country Club and Lawrence County County Club. Bob Goalby and Fuzzy Zoeller respectively.

Regular membership at quail creek is $2277

Young adult 18-26 us around $750

Thanks, I thought everyone paid the $689 a year that I pay. It's 20 miles from my office.
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Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Level of sub's increase at private members clubs
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2014, 09:20:05 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on November 13, 2014, 09:01:44 PM
Quote from: Rob Marshall on November 13, 2014, 08:52:06 PM
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on November 13, 2014, 08:08:52 PM
Quail Creek Country Club and Lawrence County County Club. Bob Goalby and Fuzzy Zoeller respectively.

Regular membership at quail creek is $2277

Young adult 18-26 us around $750

Thanks, I thought everyone paid the $689 a year that I pay. It's 20 miles from my office.

Ahhhhh.... Non resident membership.
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If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Level of sub's increase at private members clubs
« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2014, 09:23:42 PM »
Lot of truth in what JK says.Whether the annual dues are $1000 or $10,000,those members are paying because they believe this gets them something that the non-members can't have.

Dues paying members will overlook some non-member play--even if the green fee is less,or frequently substantially less,than the members' average cost per round.But there's a limit.

When a club concentrates too much on short-term revenue,there's the risk of waking up one day to find yourself A) overly dependent on outside revenue,while B) your dues paying members walk out the door because their dues checks no longer buy them anything special.

My guess is a lot of clubs are caught in this cycle.
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BCowan

Re: Level of sub's increase at private members clubs
« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2014, 09:25:36 PM »
Quote from: Jason Thurman on November 13, 2014, 08:13:50 PM
I can't name a ton of clubs with dues under $1000 in the US, but I can name a lot with dues right in that ballpark and under $1500. I plan to soon join one myself, actually. It's an excellent course - I rank it in my personal top 10 and would give it a 7 or an 8 on a 1-10 scale.

Every once in a while, someone in the UK will post about how incredible their model is and how it would save American golf. I always laugh when I read this; America is full of courses that work exactly like private clubs in the UK. We call them semi-private - members play unlimited golf for a usually reasonable annual fee while guests can pay a green fee..

Please name the course that is a 7 or 8 and is under $1500 a year?  Also let us know if that is a National member rate?  Semi-private US clubs are no where near as good as private clubs, please...  We aren't talking about an Art Hills ''rake N' Runner'' track.  Have you played in the UK?  Have you worked at a golf course?
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 10:39:13 PM by BCowan »
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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Level of sub's increase at private members clubs
« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2014, 09:39:19 PM »
Quote from: Rob Marshall on November 13, 2014, 09:20:05 PM
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on November 13, 2014, 09:01:44 PM
Quote from: Rob Marshall on November 13, 2014, 08:52:06 PM
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on November 13, 2014, 08:08:52 PM
Quail Creek Country Club and Lawrence County County Club. Bob Goalby and Fuzzy Zoeller respectively.

Regular membership at quail creek is $2277

Young adult 18-26 us around $750

Thanks, I thought everyone paid the $689 a year that I pay. It's 20 miles from my office.

Ahhhhh.... Non resident membership.


I wouldn't call 20 miles in goondick no traffic boondoggle USA non-resident. If it makes you feel any better I didn't make it out to play there this year. They are a customer of mine so I join out of courtesy.
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Bryan Icenhower

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Level of sub's increase at private members clubs
« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2014, 09:41:30 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on November 13, 2014, 02:12:54 PM
It is rarely about what you pay and more about what others don't. There are a few of us rubes left willing to subsidize the up and coming "new" golfers. Good luck when we are gone.

When the Outpost club was recently profiled in Golf Digest as a great club I had several people ask me why I still pay dues at one of their participating clubs. My last best answer was the same as your friends. Tick, tock, I'm about done.

I sincerely was fine with the Outpost until they rubbed it in my face in a national publication. It was a win/win when it was behind closed doors. Now I hope they and every course affiliated with them fails. This is what happens when you openly screw over your members in search for a few, very few, quick bucks.

I just read the Best Damn write up from GD in regards to Outpost "Founded in 2010, this burgeoning national society knows how to network. Last year the club calendar had events at 50 private venues designed by Ross. Raynor and just about every great who over shaped a bunker. "We're not a bunch of old cranks who talk course architecture," says co-founder Colin Sheehan, who's also the coach of the Yale University men's golf team. "Outpost is an invitation-only club intended for young guys who appreciate the history of the game. play fast and like a bit of camaraderie." Social group meals and the freedom to pick and choose events make your dollar go far."

Which of the courses referenced in the above paragraph do you belong to John and hence rubbed in your face?
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Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Level of sub's increase at private members clubs
« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2014, 09:51:16 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on November 13, 2014, 09:39:19 PM
Quote from: Rob Marshall on November 13, 2014, 09:20:05 PM
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on November 13, 2014, 09:01:44 PM
Quote from: Rob Marshall on November 13, 2014, 08:52:06 PM
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on November 13, 2014, 08:08:52 PM
Quail Creek Country Club and Lawrence County County Club. Bob Goalby and Fuzzy Zoeller respectively.

Regular membership at quail creek is $2277

Young adult 18-26 us around $750

Thanks, I thought everyone paid the $689 a year that I pay. It's 20 miles from my office.

Ahhhhh.... Non resident membership.


I wouldn't call 20 miles in goondick no traffic boondoggle USA non-resident. If it makes you feel any better I didn't make it out to play there this year. They are a customer of mine so I join out of courtesy.

The Quail Creek website calls it a non resident membership. I just repeated what the website says.  http://www.quailcreekcountryclub.org/aboutus/memberships/
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If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Level of sub's increase at private members clubs
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2014, 09:59:58 PM »
All anyone has to do is go to the Outpost Club website and you can see a picture of a club where I am a member posted on their home page. That's how I found out I was pissing away money month after month. I don't get or read Digest so the first I heard of the article was when a buddy goaded me about it and asked why I still pay dues. Post a link if you would.

Like I said before, all was fine when they were discreet. They just couldn't keep their mouth shut.

Btw: I don't know what course that is with the windmill but it's not the home of the 5th Major.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 10:03:55 PM by John Kavanaugh »
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Bryan Icenhower

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Level of sub's increase at private members clubs
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2014, 10:14:26 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on November 13, 2014, 09:59:58 PM
All anyone has to do is go to the Outpost Club website and you can see a picture of a club where I am a member posted on their home page. That's how I found out I was pissing away money month after month. I don't get or read Digest so the first I heard of the article was when a buddy goaded me about it and asked why I still pay dues. Post a link if you would.

Like I said before, all was fine when they were discreet. They just couldn't keep their mouth shut.

Btw: I don't know what course that is with the windmill but it's not the home of the 5th Major.
well that was artfully dodged.

the homepage does not show any golf course, just a windmill.

There are two golf holes pictured on the "about" page.  Saying "ANYONE" can recognize which course is yours is more that a stretch.

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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Level of sub's increase at private members clubs
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2014, 10:21:19 PM »
Bryan,

The pictures change rather slowly. http://www.outpostclub.com
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Bryan Icenhower

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Level of sub's increase at private members clubs
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2014, 10:29:08 PM »
Quote from: John Kavanaugh on November 13, 2014, 10:21:19 PM
Bryan,

The pictures change rather slowly. http://www.outpostclub.com

your right they do, but my statement remains the same ... saying "ANYONE" can recognize which course is which (and which is yours) is more that a stretch.
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David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Level of sub's increase at private members clubs
« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2014, 10:38:01 PM »
Bryan I. -

I suggest you follow Brian Hoover's advice as stated above.

DT
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Bryan Icenhower

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Level of sub's increase at private members clubs
« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2014, 10:50:03 PM »
sound advice, sometimes you just want him to back up his flippant statement.  He won't ...
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