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Andrew Loverock

Bunker Questions
« on: November 12, 2014, 04:43:06 PM »
This is a pretty extreme example (it's from the beach in Brora), but does anyone have any examples of bunkers that look remotely similar in terms of maintenance? How would you feel about playing out of a bunker like this?


David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunker Questions
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2014, 05:05:02 PM »
Andrew -

Bunker maintenance/presentation seems to get discussed here on a regular basis. As you might imagine, there is a wide assortment of opinions on the topic, with a good number of GCA-ers thinking bunkers these days are too well groomed and bunker play has gotten too easy.

DT 

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunker Questions
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2014, 06:08:18 PM »
Tough hazard but I'd rather play from there than water. :) I think C.B. Madonald would approve.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunker Questions
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2014, 06:28:44 PM »
If only this still existed. Sadly, Hayling's once infamous widow bunker was gone before I was born. I believe this is one of the few photos of it and even when this was taken it had shrunk considerably.  If less time was wasted on pretty and more on character this would be restored in an instant. This is the kind of eye candy which doesn't offend me. Never mind.  :'(

In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

John Connolly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunker Questions
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2014, 06:30:31 PM »
It would depend on the setting. In a midwest Parkland course, it would be out of character - "unnatural" if you will. On a coastal windswept rugged layout, might be kinda neat.
"And yet - and yet, this New Road will some day be the Old Road, too."

                                                      Neil Munroe (1863-1930)

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunker Questions
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2014, 06:38:10 PM »
Andrew,

Is there a bunker rake anywhere nearby?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Josh Stevens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunker Questions
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2014, 07:08:00 PM »
Firstly, is it actually a bunker, as in it being a defined hazard.  Or is it just sandy waste

Andrew Loverock

Re: Bunker Questions
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2014, 05:25:41 AM »
Sorry for the confusion. The photo is actually from the beach beside the course in Brora, so it's not an actual bunker.

I noticed it after my round and thought after seeing some discussions on bunker maintenance/play that it would be interesting to see if anyone has seen anything similar on a course recently.

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunker Questions
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2014, 07:15:18 AM »
This is a pretty extreme example (it's from the beach in Brora), but does anyone have any examples of bunkers that look remotely similar in terms of maintenance? How would you feel about playing out of a bunker like this?



One problem with a bunker like this is it will lead to problems in rulings. Where exactly does the bunker begin and where can the player ground his club?
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunker Questions
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2014, 08:11:32 AM »
Andrew,
You ask "how would feel about playing out of a bunker like this?"  IMHO what this type of bunker does for golf strategies is make one ask "how would you feel about hitting a shot into a bunker like this?"    Just a thought....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunker Questions
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2014, 09:17:18 AM »
Sorry for the confusion. The photo is actually from the beach beside the course in Brora, so it's not an actual bunker.


Andrew, that is a huge clarification. Can we assume that the beach is public land? And while not out of bounds, this is land not maintained by the golf course staff?

If that is the case, I would be thrilled to hit my ball from there rather than taking the stroke and distance penalty that I deserve!

Brent Hutto

Re: Bunker Questions
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2014, 09:49:00 AM »
I can hit my ball into worse shit than that adjacent on half the holes at "The Fields".

Sorry, I misspoke. Meant to say "I *have* hit my ball..."

Bunker are hazards are bunkers. A beach adjacent to a golf course is a beach. Being in the woods is being in the woods and it's often worse than a bunker or beach.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 09:51:45 AM by Brent Hutto »

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Bunker Questions
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2014, 10:21:53 AM »
This is exactly the bunker maintenance clamored for in a quarterly thread. The guys who want to see it will cite MacDonald's famous quote about a cavalry as justification for why they think golf would be a better game if they didn't have to take care of the course.

Golf is the only sport I'm aware of in which competitors ensure a fair playing surface for their opponents. If the price of such a civilized and honorable practice is that bunkers become a bit easier to play from, I'm fine with it. The shame of a bunker maintained as in the photo would not be in a lack of strategic merit, but in the toll it would take on the etiquette and sportsmanship of our game. Raked bunkers are a small architectural price to pay for the dignity that separates us from barbarians.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Brent Hutto

Re: Bunker Questions
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2014, 10:29:07 AM »
I'm all for using a tracked-up beach as the model for bunker maintenance. While we're at it we can stop fixing ball marks on the green and divots in the fairway. Saves on time and maintenance expense and what the heck, we're supposed to play the course as we find it. Eventually the entire course including the greens will look like that beach picture and we'll be playing Real Golf again. Won't that be fun!

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunker Questions
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2014, 10:41:41 AM »

I'm all for using a tracked-up beach as the model for bunker maintenance. While we're at it we can stop fixing ball marks on the green and divots in the fairway. Saves on time and maintenance expense and what the heck, we're supposed to play the course as we find it. Eventually the entire course including the greens will look like that beach picture and we'll be playing Real Golf again. Won't that be fun!


Some on here will probably now quote you as a visionary.

Brent Hutto

Re: Bunker Questions
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2014, 10:47:56 AM »
It seems an inevitable drift within Internet groups of long standing that when something starts out being decried as excessive (too many trees, too fast Stimp readings, too much money and chemical input in search of "perfection") eventually the cool kids in the group will start holding up excess in the opposite direction as the ideal (not a tree on the property, slow greens, bunkers that look like a beach after a holiday weekend).

I tend to want to advocate for a middle ground. Put rakes in the bunkers but don't expect the grounds crew to power-rake every one of them perfectly 365 days a year. Let the greens be fast enough for excitement without going overboard. Let trees have their place.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunker Questions
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2014, 10:53:10 AM »


I tend to want to advocate for a middle ground. Put rakes in the bunkers but don't expect the grounds crew to power-rake every one of them perfectly 365 days a year. Let the greens be fast enough for excitement without going overboard. Let trees have their place.

Now THAT is visionary
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunker Questions
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2014, 11:33:56 AM »
This is a pretty extreme example (it's from the beach in Brora), but does anyone have any examples of bunkers that look remotely similar in terms of maintenance? How would you feel about playing out of a bunker like this?

Well there are examples but you have to go a way back in history.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Bunker Questions
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2014, 11:49:29 AM »
This is a pretty extreme example (it's from the beach in Brora), but does anyone have any examples of bunkers that look remotely similar in terms of maintenance? How would you feel about playing out of a bunker like this?

Well there are examples but you have to go a way back in history.

Not that far back in history...

"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunker Questions
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2014, 12:25:46 PM »
Andrew

I don't know of any bunkers as the photo depicts.  Although, I don't have a problem with it if bunkers were seen with a proper perspective.  I have no interest bunkers being a mess they way they are usually employed...meaning tons of bunkers.  If there were relatively few bunkers then sure, why not makem' beaches.  But also why not allow penalty drops outside the bunker similar to water hazards?  In fact, why not have the same rules apply for water and sand?  Maybe if folks knew they could take the penalty drop they wouldn't mind the state of sand so much and we can reduce the number of bunkers and their upkeep.  We would see a revolution in bunker placement and the use of other features.  Sounds grand to me. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunker Questions
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2014, 12:44:10 PM »
Golf is the only sport I'm aware of in which competitors ensure a fair playing surface for their opponents.

Jason,

I think you are mistaking fairness for treating all players equally. There is no call in the rules for 'fairness' but it is expected that all players should face the same challenge as far as is possible.

For my pennies worth, I believe that as bunkers are supposed to be hazards they should present a challenge to the player and only be raked often enough to keep the weeds at bay. As with replacing divots golfers should be able to tidy up in a bunker themselves.

Jon

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunker Questions
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2014, 01:14:42 PM »
Andrew,

Have a look at this thread noting the changes to a famous hole and bunker at Aberdovey -

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58817.0.html

This thread about styles of links bunker might be of interest as well -

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58994.0.html

atb

Matthew Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunker Questions
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2014, 01:22:37 PM »
It seems an inevitable drift within Internet groups of long standing that when something starts out being decried as excessive (too many trees, too fast Stimp readings, too much money and chemical input in search of "perfection") eventually the cool kids in the group will start holding up excess in the opposite direction as the ideal (not a tree on the property, slow greens, bunkers that look like a beach after a holiday weekend).

I tend to want to advocate for a middle ground. Put rakes in the bunkers but don't expect the grounds crew to power-rake every one of them perfectly 365 days a year. Let the greens be fast enough for excitement without going overboard. Let trees have their place.

I agree.

The calls for less manicured bunkers come from those who watch more golf on TV than on the course with mortals. 99% of people I play with are absolutely terrified of being in the sand. Meanwhile, pros are really good at it. So be it. Pros are really good at all facets, it's why they get to play golf for a living.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Bunker Questions
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2014, 02:03:23 PM »
Golf is the only sport I'm aware of in which competitors ensure a fair playing surface for their opponents.

Jason,

I think you are mistaking fairness for treating all players equally. There is no call in the rules for 'fairness' but it is expected that all players should face the same challenge as far as is possible.

I don't think I am. I call your bluff. Explain your thesis.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunker Questions
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2014, 02:21:14 PM »
Random question:

Has anyone experience a club/course that has a local rule for all bunkers to be "rake and place" but they are completely unkept otherwise?