So much wrong with this I don't know where to begin...

[Greg Tallman]

Well I know exactly where to begin but...

The 2015 Caribbean/Mexico list from "GolfWeek"

1. (1) Cap Cana (Punta Espada)

2. (2) Dunes Course at Diamante

3. (5) Mid Ocean Club

4. (4) Casa de Campo (Teeth of the Dog)

5. (3) Querencia

6. (6) Four Seasons Resort Punta Mita (Bahia)

7. (10) Apes Hill Club

8. (7) Abaco Club on Winding Bay

9. (16) Corales

10. (9) Sandy Lane (Green Monkey)

11. (12) Royal Westmoreland

12. (11) Four Seasons Resort Punta Mita (Pacifico)

13. ( Vista Vallarta Golf Club (Nicklaus)

14. (13) Cabo del Sol (Ocean)

15. (18) El Dorado Golf & Beach Club

16. (14) Canouan Resort (Grenadines Estates)

17. (17) Vista Vallarta Golf Club (Weiskopf)

18. (15) Mayakoba (El Camaleón)

19. (19) Port Royal

20. (20) Reserva Conchal

21. (21) Albany

22. (22) Casa de Campo (Dye Fore)

23. (24) Iberostar Playa Paraiso

24. (23) Trump International Puerto Rico (International)

25. (47) Palmas del Mar (Flamboyan)

26. (27) Ritz-Carlton Resort (White Witch)

27. (25) Four Seasons Resort Costa Rica at Peninsula Papagayo

28. (28) Cabo del Sol (Desert)

29. (26) Trump International Puerto Rico (Championship)

30. (31) Tryall Golf & Beach Club

31. (37) Bahia Beach Resort & Golf Club

32. (34) CuisinArt Golf Club

33. (29) Puerto Los Cabos (Norman/Nicklaus)

34. (33) Casa de Campo (La Romana)

35. (32) Sandy Lane (The Country Club)

36. (30) Santa Barbara Plantation (Old Quarry)

37. (NR) PuntaCana Resort (La Cana)

38. (38) Lyford Cay Club

39. (39) Royal St. Kitts Golf Club

40. (36) Moon Palace (Lakes & Jungle)

41. (42) Hacienda Pinilla Golf & Country Club

42. (40) Cabo Real

43. (44) Royal Isabela

44. (NR) The Plantation Club (Sugarcane)

45. (35) One & Only Palmilla (Mountain & Arroyo)

46. (46) Club Campestre

47. (50) Dorado Beach (East)

48. (45) Rose Hall Resort & Spa (Cinnamon Hill)

49. (41) One & Only Ocean Club

50. (43) Rosewood Tucker’s Point



 
 

 

[Keith OHalloran]

Greg,
I have never played any of theses courses. Would you mind giving some of your insight on what is wrong with the list?

[Carl Nichols]

I haven't played that many of these courses, but in light of the ones I have played, 47 for Dorado Beach East [post-renovation] seems really low. 

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,
I have never played any of theses courses. Would you mind giving some of your insight on what is wrong with the list?

Dye Fore alongside Iberostar Playa Paraiso? IPP is a run of the mill central Florida flat swamp track at best. Dye Fore is pretty darned good. Green Monkey is 25 spots ahead of Dye Fore?

Cinnamon Hill is far better than at least a dozen courses ahead of it, maybe 2 dozen.

Cabo del Sol Ocean 5th in Mexico? Vista Vallarta and both Punta Mita courses ahead of Ocean? Really? The guy who designed each of those would roll his eyes, get a good laugh or simply say WTF?

I have chatted with probably 100 of the panelists and this list in no way reflects a single conversation. Perhaps all 100 or so were just blowing smoke up my backside.

Oh well, at least it spurs conversation.

I'll reveal a telling phone conversation a bit later.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Cabo del Sol at that number is indeed totally ignorant.
If it is not one of the top 5 courses in the area being ranked here then I now know nothing about architecture at all

There are at least 8 courses'ranked" above it that on my Doak scale would rank at least 1.5 points below Cabo del sol , not even close.

[Greg Tallman]

Cabo del Sol at that number is indeed totally ignorant.
If it is not one of the top 5 courses in the area being ranked here then I now know nothing about architecture at all

There are at least 8 courses'ranked" above it that on my Doak scale would rank at least 1.5 points below Cabo del sol , not even close.

MWP - Yes, it is rather obvious and nary a panelist I have chatted with disagrees. Wonder how that happens then???

What are your Cabo dates? Chileno is finally up and running and thought we might sneak over and play it one day while you are here. t is worth a look see for sure. Clear cut top 3 in Cabo.

[Brian Joines]

Is Cap Cana really that good?

[Joel Zuckerman]

Yes---IMO Cap Cana is outstanding.

[Matt Bielawa]

White Witch is the only one I've seen on that list, so I can't vouch for its ranking relative to the others, but I definitely enjoyed it and would say it's worth playing if you're in MoBay.

[mike_beene]

Is Dye Fore the course that comes from the same clubhouse as Teeth of the Dog? Also, is the 4 Seasons Nevis not on the list?

[Greg Gilson]

Hi Greg, I have played the following off this list:

2.  Dunes Course at Diamante

3. Mid Ocean Club

4.  Casa de Campo (Teeth of the Dog)

14. Cabo del Sol (Ocean)

28. Cabo del Sol (Desert)

34. Casa de Campo (La Romana)

The obvious "issues" for me are :

The #1 course must be a ripper if its better than Diamante or TOTD

I would have trouble splitting Diamante & TOTD - different courses from different eras. Both amazing.

Mid Ocean...played it on my honeymoon so maybe I missed something. Its very nice but not in the same class as Diamante & TOTD

CDS Ocean...I can only assume this list was prepared by a magazine and you guys are not advertising enough. I am not saying it belongs at 1 or 2 but if here are 13 better courses in the region, I need to get out more.

[Greg Tallman]

Hi Greg, I have played the following off this list:

2.  Dunes Course at Diamante

3. Mid Ocean Club

4.  Casa de Campo (Teeth of the Dog)

14. Cabo del Sol (Ocean)

28. Cabo del Sol (Desert)

34. Casa de Campo (La Romana)

The obvious "issues" for me are :

The #1 course must be a ripper if its better than Diamante or TOTD

I would have trouble splitting Diamante & TOTD - different courses from different eras. Both amazing.

Mid Ocean...played it on my honeymoon so maybe I missed something. Its very nice but not in the same class as Diamante & TOTD

CDS Ocean...I can only assume this list was prepared by a magazine and you guys are not advertising enough. I am not saying it belongs at 1 or 2 but if here are 13 better courses in the region, I need to get out more.

While I have not seen Punta Espada to me you take the top 4 on the list, add CDS Ocean, throw them all in a hat and draw the top 5 and you could argue for however they came out. Nothing else on the list belongs in that discussion.

[John Percival]

Greg,
Just returned from Cancun.
Stayed right next door to Mayakoba but couldnt play as Tour stop was in town.
Thus, for convenience, played IPP.
While the course was in fine condition and the service was wonderful, the course is, as you mentioned, extremely average.
And entirely without views.

Havent played TOTD since the reno and am curious what people think about the before and after.

[Tom_Doak]

While I have not seen Punta Espada to me you take the top 4 on the list, add CDS Ocean, throw them all in a hat and draw the top 5 and you could argue for however they came out. Nothing else on the list belongs in that discussion.

That is pretty much what we are looking at for The Confidential Guide, as it stands right now ... the five courses you mentioned all between 7.5 and 8.0 averages, and nothing else in the region above a 6.0.  But, we haven't seen some of the candidates yet; I'm headed to the Bahamas in two weeks to see where those courses fit in.

Teeth of the Dog is still my personal first choice, but I haven't seen the renvoation.

[Greg Gilson]

While I have not seen Punta Espada to me you take the top 4 on the list, add CDS Ocean, throw them all in a hat and draw the top 5 and you could argue for however they came out. Nothing else on the list belongs in that discussion.

This is a pretty god way to put it. ...and it tells me I need to see Punta Espada.

[Wayne_Kozun]

And then there is the issue that Bermuda is not in the Caribbean...

[Greg Tallman]

While I have not seen Punta Espada to me you take the top 4 on the list, add CDS Ocean, throw them all in a hat and draw the top 5 and you could argue for however they came out. Nothing else on the list belongs in that discussion.

That is pretty much what we are looking at for The Confidential Guide, as it stands right now ... the five courses you mentioned all between 7.5 and 8.0 averages, and nothing else in the region above a 6.0.  But, we haven't seen some of the candidates yet; I'm headed to the Bahamas in two weeks to see where those courses fit in.

Teeth of the Dog is still my personal first choice, but I haven't seen the renvoation.

That is about the gap i would have thought. Those 5 are clearly in a class unto themselves in the region. The absurdity of this list is obvious as are the reasons for some placements.

[mike_beene]

Sounds like the college football debate.

[henrye]

Greg, I understand your concern with the list ranking, because you're so intimate with golf in that neck of the woods.  While a number of them are not very inspirational, they all can satisfy a good outing for the tropics.  When I look over the list, I'm surprised at the number of those courses I've played (24 out of 50).  My favourite (not necessarily the best) is Tryall, and not by a small margin.  Mid Ocean is a classic.  I'm surprised that a few other moderns that I would have thought would be there are missing: Isla Navidad, Tamarindo & Tres Vidas.

[Tom_Doak]

I'm surprised that a few other moderns that I would have thought would be there are missing: Isla Navidad, Tamarindo & Tres Vidas.

I'm not sure Tamarindo is open at the moment.  I was trying to check out going there to see it for my book, and the various web sites were quite vague on its status, but it seemed that the resort has either closed for remodeling or gone private.  Does anyone know what's up there?   It looked like it might be an iffy part of Mexico to be traveling in right now.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I'm surprised that a few other moderns that I would have thought would be there are missing: Isla Navidad, Tamarindo & Tres Vidas.

I'm not sure Tamarindo is open at the moment.  I was trying to check out going there to see it for my book, and the various web sites were quite vague on its status, but it seemed that the resort has either closed for remodeling or gone private.  Does anyone know what's up there?   It looked like it might be an iffy part of Mexico to be traveling in right now.

Tom,

My wife and I went to El Tamarindo a few years ago. Flew into Manzanillo and it's about a 45 minute drive north. I have heard that the resort is currently closed for a total remodel. It is on a 2000 acre parcel of land that, as I recall, is owned by a Mexican industrialist perhaps from banking or oil money. (I think oil.)

His house is on the point of the resort and is just over the top. Like a James Bond villain's compound. I have pics of resort, course and this guy's house. We were in a boat so I could snap a few of the "hacienda".

The course was very cool. On a day in March, there were maybe 10-20 total rounds played per day. RTJ, Jr. I believe did the course. Lots of lemurs and wildlife everywhere.

At the time Starwood was managing the property and it was part of their "Luxury Collection" or something. 30 villas, 3 beaches, 2 tennis courts and a VERY private golf course.

Cheers,
Ian

[Greg Tallman]

I'm surprised that a few other moderns that I would have thought would be there are missing: Isla Navidad, Tamarindo & Tres Vidas.

I'm not sure Tamarindo is open at the moment.  I was trying to check out going there to see it for my book, and the various web sites were quite vague on its status, but it seemed that the resort has either closed for remodeling or gone private.  Does anyone know what's up there?   It looked like it might be an iffy part of Mexico to be traveling in right now.

Tom, Pretty sure the golf course is accessible but the lodging portion has been closed for a while as far as I know. I don't think you would have a problem traveling to that area. not that it is free of the "issues" that pervade most of mainland Mexico but the real hotspots are well south.