Willie Park Jr (Pennsylvania) Opinions

[BCowan]

If anyone can give me their opinions of the following I would appreciate it.  I am sure Mr Bausch has done photo tours of the philly tracks.  

Chartiers CC

Youghiogheny CC

Indiana CC

Penn State College (Blue)White

Reading CC

Berkshire CC

Green Valley CC

Philmont CC

[JNagle]

Will offer an opinion on Berkshire in the coming days when I have a moment.  However, want to point out that Reading CC is primarily Findlay and Green Valley CC (Philly) is Flynn.  A quick comment would be love the greens at Berkshire and Philmont.  Working with Berkshire on expanding a couple in house.  Great interest, variety and challenge.  His well known ability as a player and putter seems to shine through in this greens.  A couple of the greens are Philmont rival many of the highly regarded in Philly.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Any reference to Philmont (Park, Jr) should be to Philmont North as Philmont South is generally attributed to Reid/Wilson/Gordon.

[Joe Bausch]

I just recently recompiled my Philmont North photo album based upon multiple visits this fall.  The course is challenging to photograph b/c of the dense trees surrounding so many greens, and these Park greens are really neat.

But I think you'll find this photo album to be outstanding in places, and I've procured hole diagrams from a yardage book back in the 90's when Philmont hosted a Nike tour event:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/PhilmontNorth/index.html

[Joe Bausch]

Sometimes Green Valley is mistakenly is labeled a Park Jr course.  Why?  Because their previous site, Roxborough CC, was a Park Jr design.  Hence, the source of confusion.  But Green Valley is a Billy Flynn course, for sure.  And pretty good, too.  Here is a photo tour from pics last year on two visits, I think:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/GreenValley/index.html

I hope to see Berkshire at some point.  But apparently I need to know someone to get me on there.   

[Kyle Harris]

It's the Penn State White Course that is the Willie Park, Jr. It is incorrectly listed as the Blue in Cornish and Whitten.

Holes 6-14 have Park greens with 7-14 just as Park left them absent a few bunkers and more narrower corridors. See my In My Opinion piece, if you're interested.

Also, Holes 1, 5-7, 14-18 at Schuylkill Country Club were routed by Willie Park, and for the most part left intact when Ross/McGovern added 9 in the early 1940s.

[Terry Lavin]

Can anyone articulate some Willie Park Jr. design characteristics or was he a site-dependent stylist?

[BCowan]

Sometimes Green Valley is mistakenly is labeled a Park Jr course.  Why?  Because their previous site, Roxborough CC, was a Park Jr design.  Hence, the source of confusion.  But Green Valley is a Billy Flynn course, for sure.  And pretty good, too.  Here is a photo tour from pics last year on two visits, I think:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/GreenValley/

I hope to see Berkshire at some point.  But apparently I need to know someone to get me on there.   

Joe,

   Great photo tour.  Massive amounts of fire wood there. 

[Mark McKeever]

Schuylkill CC had 9 Park holes.  I don't think Ross did a whole lot when he came in and expanded the course to 18. 

Kyle?


MM

[Chris Mavros]

I played Philmont North this season and enjoyed it very much.  It was a very creative parkland course with lots of character and terrific greens.  The bunkers were immense in size, the forced carry shots were exacting (the approach shot at the Sixth comes to mind) and the terrain was used well. 

[Peter Flory]

Can anyone comment on Chartiers?  I see that Art Hills renovated it in 1985.  Was his renovation limited or did he de-Park it? 

[James Brown]

Can anyone articulate some Willie Park Jr. design characteristics or was he a site-dependent stylist?

He was one of the first early architects that made moved earth look more natural.  The Penn State White Course is a great example.  From the fairways, many of the built up greens look perfectly natural, even though the green sites were totally manufactured.  Pretty far ahead for a hundred years ago.

[Dean Paolucci]

Can anyone articulate some Willie Park Jr. design characteristics or was he a site-dependent stylist?

Willie Park, Jr. was noted for interesting push up greens.  There is always a lot of movement in the pads and a premium on the putter due to his well know prowess with the flat stick.  Also, false fronts and compressions within green sites are abundant.  Additionally, he felt it was important to see bunkers, even if it was an eyebrow of flash protruding.  He used the terrain effectively and incorporated cross bunkers as well as guide bunkers in an expert fashion to trick the eye or direct the player on a specific line.  Buried stone walls and debris mounds were features he incorporated in to his designs out of necessity because removal of stray material was financially as well as physically impractical to cart off-site. 

[Joe Bausch]

Schuylkill CC had 9 Park holes.  I don't think Ross did a whole lot when he came in and expanded the course to 18. 

Kyle?


MM

Old photo album, but still pretty good, of Schuylkill:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Schuylkill/index.html

[Joe Bausch]

And I really like Berkshire:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Berkshire/index.html

[Joe Bausch]

Indiana CC is pretty good Park, too!

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Indiana/index.html

[Matt Frey, PGA]

I played Youghiogheny on U.S. Open Sunday in 2016. I very much enjoyed it. Some of the elevation changes are very impressive. It has a good mix of short and long holes and the greens are pretty strong as well. It could definitely be improved with a little TLC...many tress have grown since the course was opened and many of the greens have shrunk. However, all its bones still appear to be there! I would certainly recommend seeing this course if you like WPJ designs.

[MCirba]

Berkshire is the bomb.


Most underrated course in PA, in my opinion.


That used to be CC of Scranton but a light has been shined on that place recently.

[Joe Bausch]

Berkshire is the bomb.

Most underrated course in PA, in my opinion.

That used to be CC of Scranton but a light has been shined on that place recently.

I've rebuilt my Berkshire photo album (ahh, the delight of large megapixel photos where I can re-compose some of the photos that were poorly composed the first time!):

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Berkshire/index.html

[Tim Gavrich]

Can anyone articulate some Willie Park Jr. design characteristics or was he a site-dependent stylist?

The two main courses of his that I've played are both in CT: Shuttle Meadow CC and New Haven CC. Both courses punch above their weight a good bit on the strength of some fearsome greens. I'd put them somewhere in between Ross and Maxwell (note: I've only played Old Town among Maxwells) in slope/mound style, although there are a couple individual greens on each course that are another order of magnitude wilder than the rest. At Shuttle Meadow, that's the 18th, which has as steep an overall back-to-front slope as any green I've seen. It's been longer since I played New Haven, but I recall the 1st and 13th greens there standing out. Coincidentally, both courses are par 71, with a par-34 side and a par-37 side - Shuttle Meadow is 37-34 and New Haven is 34-37.