[Thomas Dai]

The heathland greens tend to be more "lay of the land" than the famous 9 and 10s in USA (Winged Foot et al)....but that's just a matter of taste if it's a negative.  Tom favors strongly contoured greens as does Ran and it's the prevailing preference on GCA
But in fact this kind of "lay of the land" green is getting rarer and rarer.  Today nobody wants to build simple tilted greens like say the 10th at Whittington Heath, 2nd at Sunnningdale Old, 9th at Royal Ashdown.

Interesting that Paul should mention Whittington Heath as it was the green complexes at Colt's Whittington Heath that immediately came to my mind when I read Tom's earlier comment "In general, what holds the heathland courses back for me...... is that they don't have great greens contouring or exceptional short-game interest".  

I find this a really odd statement. There are some absolutely cracking short game tests, a real challenge for even wedge-wizards, around the greens at for example, Colts Whitington Heath, try for an up-n-down if you miss the green on the 17th, just like there are at numerous heatlands by him and others and I'd have thought there were pretty strongly contoured too, for example the 4th at WH is a right bugger to putt on or play a delecate short game shot onto even at a slow green speeds and the 10th as mentioned by Paul is a killer, 3-putt heaven.

I'm not attempting to bump-up any ratings, but I am confused.

atb

[Paul_Turner]

Thomas

I'm not sure if you've played over here in USA...but the 9 and 10s in Tom's book generally have strongly contoured greens, much more so than the heathlands other than the occasional exception like some greens at Woking.  But I'm not sure I could play Winged Foot all the time without feeling beaten up or even Merion.

Cypress is an exception and one reason I like it the best.   Pacific Dunes too has great greens without being really heavily contoured (kind of Portrush level of contour)

Mark

No don't give architects reading these threads bad ideas!  I don't think Walton Heath would become better if the greens started to be redone in a Woking style.

Tom

Yes thank god the stimpmeter isn't used much over in the UK.  Although it does occasionally happen.  A very nice downland course Effingham recently redid a lovely 90 year old, tilted green (5th) because the club likes very fast greens.

[Tom_Doak]

So I guess I wonder whether it would "worth it" for a heathland 6 or 7 to materially alter its green contours and surrounds...? Or not worth it, or worse yet sacrilege based on history and ODGs work (see: TOC)?  Of course, understanding that 6s and 7s are quite good...

Matt:

God forbid that any club should think about redesigning a course rated 6 or 7 in our book because they think their rating is too low.

[Mat Poade]

With regards to Harborne there's no space to add any significant distance to holes. The only hole that could be lengthened is the 13th, you could probably move the tee back into the trees and add 30-40 yards, but I think in doing so you would ruin the hole. At the moment longer hitters have to hit a 3 wood, 2iron to get into the ideal flat spot for the heroic approach shot. Moving it back would mean any decision is taken out of their hands and it's a driver for everyone. In some ways adding length might also make it easier! For me my driver goes to the severely downhill sloping part of the fairway, so I have to hit 3 wood, this doesn't quite get me to the ideal spot, so i have 1 or 2 clubs more to hit than i would ideally like. Plus if i had the choice of hitting driver or 3 wood I'd go driver all day long as it's an easier club to hit!

The 17th may be 438 on the card, but it plays nearer 460 as the driver lands on a severely sloping uphill fairway and then you are still left with a long second.

Sean is right about the par 3's. I cant think of many courses in the area that have such demanding par 3's.

Mat

[Sean_A]

Mat

Yes, 17 usually plays much longer than its listed yardage and the 2nd is often blind.  I also find the 12th plays long as its slightly uphill and often into the wind.   That said, I have no qualm with a 5, but I could see Harborne as a 6 as well - there are a lot of very good holes.  The only real drawbacks are winter wet and congestion when back tees are in play. 

Ciao

[Mat Poade]

Yes the 12th is a difficult hole.  On the card and in pictures it probably looks quite easy, but as you said its often into a head wind (Harborne is quite a windy course at times) and the Ideal line is over the edge of the bunker, it doesn't take much for a a drive drift OOB on a tight line. The approach is to a very narrow green as well. I think its a great hole.  11, 12 & 13 are where you can lose a very good score.

I played the front 9 early this morning, considering the downpours we've had at the end of last week the course was reasonably dry still.

I have yet to receive my copy, but a 5 or 6 seems about right to me. I think its on a par with Edgbaston, but perhaps slightly behind Beau, Whittington Heath and Enville. I Don't quit get the love that everyone has for little Aston, but Ive only played it once, so perhaps i need to go back if they ever lower the green fee :-)

Mat

[Sean_A]

Mat

I can actually see Egbaston, Harborne, Beau Desert, Whitty Heath and Sutton Coldfield as 6s or 5s...on the Doak Scale..though I would push for 6 actually...given what the big boys in London score.  In their current state there isn't much between them.  I would put Enville a notch or two down and Little Aston a notch up...its a really subtle course which the bunkering masks...but there are also some excellent bunkers, cool earth works and water to cause some ball ache.  The one that kills me though is Beau.  This is clearly the best of the bunch and it is seriously compromised by trees and rough. 

Ciao

[Matt MacIver]

So I guess I wonder whether it would "worth it" for a heathland 6 or 7 to materially alter its green contours and surrounds...? Or not worth it, or worse yet sacrilege based on history and ODGs work (see: TOC)?  Of course, understanding that 6s and 7s are quite good...

Matt:

God forbid that any club should think about redesigning a course rated 6 or 7 in our book because they think their rating is too low.

Sorry no - I was just sung your scale as an example - was asking, for the Member's own sake, would they materially renovate their course to make it better, for their own pleasure. If done well, higher ranking could follow but that'd be upside. Feels to me the heathlandmcpurses have lots going for it: turf, routing, strategic elements...but I guess each is as good as it can ever be. 

[James Boon]

Boony & Sheehy

Do you thing the views at SGH and Ganton are special - enough so that you would mention them as something worth paying for?  I see Ganton views just driving around my house...its dime a dozen stuff.  SGH is surrounded by housing, nice housing, but housing.  The interior views aren't all that.  SGH is just a bloody good golf course!

Ciao  

Sean,

I think the views at Ganton are decent? Special is subjective and you obviously live in a beautiful part of the world if you get that sort of view on a regular basis. I was merely flagging up that I thought your mentioning Ganton in a list of courses without great views was a bit harsh? You aren't going to play Ganton for its views but that doesn't mean they aren't decent.

Cheers,

James

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tom:

No, not redesign. Just move it to a golf-poor location. Win win!

Okay, about the write up of Westward Ho!: I think the present course is much more the work of Herbert Fowler and as such appears to be a "modern" (read: 20th Century), thoroughly conventional design. It does not feel like a 19th century (or earlier) type of design; there is perhaps some "accidental" strategy out there but my sense is that's more down to advances in equipment than lack of thought or awareness in Fowler's effort. Overall it's a refined design. I don't see it as a place to see what architecture looked like before principles, conventional wisdom and best practices took hold.

(In maintenance practices, yes, there's that element that golfers may not be prepared to experience or to accept. I realize I am vulnerable to the capital charge of Point Missing.)

[Matt MacIver]

Actually, it's somewhat disappointing that it seems most of the debate is over the numbers, and why Course Y was not favored over Course X.  There seem to be fewer pointed debates over the actual reviews of courses, or the holes we mentioned as favorites.

I had typed response but my screen crashed and it didn't save. It was around Turnberry's comments and how, as opposed to you, thought 1-2 might be a "gentle handshake" and 17 was a good birdie hole to make a move and at least Jack and Tom liked #18 (ok Watson's 1-for-2). 

I then said I liked 9, the second shot was so boring as to lull me to sleep, and maybe make a mistake...probably not pro's problem.

Then I saw you're getting your wish: The Donald is blowing it up and turning it into a par 3.  Evidently Gary Player approves.
http://digitalmag.globalgolfpost.com/20141117#&pageSet=24&page=0&contentItem=undefined

[Tim_Weiman]

My wife suggested that I write the book without the numbers -- she finds them "too judgmental" -- and though I liked the idea in theory, I knew that most readers would not.  [Plus, the whole idea of having collaborators would have been compromised, since it would be hard to represent who thought what.]  Maybe I should just listen to my wife all the time, though it would also mean designing fewer golf courses.

Tom,

I think I agree with your wife......and you both.

Years ago when Bobby Raynum first told me about the Confidential Guide I was quite skeptical about the book. My thought was "why would some guy who wants to be a golf architect write such a book?".

So, you can imagine, it peaked my interest when you raised that very subject in the introduction of the original (published) version of the book.

But, when I sat down and started reading the book it began to make sense. The book did have merit. More to the point, it had merit precisely because of the quality of the writing - certainly not because of the course numerical ratings.

That said, do people want to see the numbers? Yes, of course they do.

I just wonder if the numbers now obscure what made the book so good in the first place.

[Tom_Doak]

I had typed response but my screen crashed and it didn't save. It was around Turnberry's comments and how, as opposed to you, thought 1-2 might be a "gentle handshake" and 17 was a good birdie hole to make a move and at least Jack and Tom liked #18 (ok Watson's 1-for-2). 

I then said I liked 9, the second shot was so boring as to lull me to sleep, and maybe make a mistake...probably not pro's problem.

Matt:

The observation about Turnberry's weak start and finish was actually Ran's, but I put it in there because I agreed.  I don't think every hole has to be a "wow" moment but the first two [actually, the first three] are really pretty nondescript.  I agree with you that 17 is a more appealing hole even though it's a pretty easy birdie for the pros.

[Mark Pearce]

I had hoped to see Scott MacPherson's Colt Course at Close House reviewed.  It seems to have received less attention all round than might have been the case elsewhere.

[Paul Gray]

I had hoped to see Scott MacPherson's Colt Course at Close House reviewed.  It seems to have received less attention all round than might have been the case elsewhere.

I'd be interested generally in hearing more about it. It does seem to have slipped under the radar somewhat.

[Mark Pearce]

Paul,

Martin Bonnar posted a thread here: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,50039.0.html and James Boon posted one before the course opened: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46291.0.html.

I've now played it a handful of times (I didn't end up joining) and my views haven't changed much from those in that first thread.  It's very good, particularly given the land it's built on.  I believe Graham Wylie, who owns it, has great ambitions for it, so much so that he has asked Westwood for advice on how to raise the profile of the course and, on his advice, has stopped hosting weddings at the hotel.

[Adam Lawrence]

The hotel has actually closed down. As I understand it, Wylie is going to live there.

[Mark Chaplin]

Tom - was someone over indulging on the sherry at Worplesdon? Crossing a 4 lane highway with a high speed limit, you cross it twice which totals 4 lanes and doubling 40mph makes it very high indeed.

Walton Heath is a very fast road at 60mph and Liphook simply suicidal.

For the sake of accuracy it's a single carriageway with a 40mph limit. Like many road crossings on golf courses you need to look properly and walk with purpose.

[Paul Gray]

Mark,

Thanks for that. Greatly appreciated.

[Sean_A]

Tom - was someone over indulging on the sherry at Worplesdon? Crossing a 4 lane highway with a high speed limit, you cross it twice which totals 4 lanes and doubling 40mph makes it very high indeed.

Walton Heath is a very fast road at 60mph and Liphook simply suicidal.

For the sake of accuracy it's a single carriageway with a 40mph limit. Like many road crossings on golf courses you need to look properly and walk with purpose.

ooooooh, a newly minted homer has a word    Only Chappers could make the Worpy Crossing sound like a walk in the park    What makes the Worpy Crossing okay are the holes on the far side...they are really the highlight of the course.  Though I do agree with one thing, the Lippy Crossing is insane.  Its not even safe to walk along the pavement.  

23. Royal Aberdeen: There is a three point spread between four guys here - 7,8,5,8.  Masa is the odd man out.  Can folks try to explain why RA could elicit such different thoughts?  BTW - Doak pumped his score up from 5 to 7!  Tom, what was it you saw the second time around that you didn't previously?

Ciao

[Sean_A]

24: Eclectic 18's: I had a look through the nominees and honourable mentions and three things stood out.  

First, only Co Down had a nominee from every rater; hole #s 1, 3, 7 & 9, plus #2 was honourably mentioned.  

Second, there is one course which stands well outside the grouping of courses with at least two holes nominated (and only three panelists have seen Askernish).  There are all the usual suspects which are world top 100 material...then there is Askernish!  Two holes were nominated; 7 & 9, plus the 12th was honourably mentioned.  However, none of these holes made the final cut.  Pennard's 7th, Lahinch's 9th and Swinley Forest's 12th were the final choices...hard to argue against any of them.  

Finally, Doak didn't nominate any holes from Rye...a course he gives a 9.  What is going on there Tom?

Ciao

[Ryan Coles]

Tom - was someone over indulging on the sherry at Worplesdon? Crossing a 4 lane highway with a high speed limit, you cross it twice which totals 4 lanes and doubling 40mph makes it very high indeed.

Walton Heath is a very fast road at 60mph and Liphook simply suicidal.

For the sake of accuracy it's a single carriageway with a 40mph limit. Like many road crossings on golf courses you need to look properly and walk with purpose.

ooooooh, a newly minted homer has a word    Only Chappers could make the Worpy Crossing sound like a walk in the park    What makes the Worpy Crossing okay are the holes on the far side...they are really the highlight of the course.  Though I do agree with one thing, the Lippy Crossing is insane.  Its not even safe to walk along the pavement.  

23. Royal Aberdeen: There is a three point spread between four guys here - 7,8,5,8.  Masa is the odd man out.  Can folks try to explain why RA could elicit such different thoughts?  BTW - Doak pumped his score up from 5 to 7!  Tom, what was it you saw the second time around that you didn't previously?

Ciao

Re: Royal Aberdeen, I think it could be something as simple as the weather. What I liked about the book was that the guys are influenced by the same things as us. Weather, if the Secretary was rude, a road crossing etc - these are quite often the things you remember on one or two plays many years ago.

I find it amusing that people are defensive about their home course / favourites. My area and the M4 corridor is so bad that huge swathes of courses didn't even warrant a visit. Glos, Somerset and Wiltshire, get a big fat 0 save for Burnham, Painswick and Cleeve Hill. Whilst being somewhat bitter about being geographically challenged, I think the omission of these areas is fair enough.

[Tom_Doak]

23. Royal Aberdeen: There is a three point spread between four guys here - 7,8,5,8.  Masa is the odd man out.  Can folks try to explain why RA could elicit such different thoughts?  BTW - Doak pumped his score up from 5 to 7!  Tom, what was it you saw the second time around that you didn't previously?

Sean:

As I've explained several times before, two things which lowered my opinion of Royal Aberdeen the first time were

1)  the weather [wind and heavy rain for the entire three days I was in Aberdeen ... I have a great picture of a flagstick at Murcar bent like there's a 50-pound fish on the end of the line] and

2)  hangover effect from Cruden Bay ... which I had seen immediately prior in beautiful weather, and which was one of the highlights of my year overseas.

Also, I thought the back nine at Royal Aberdeen was a huge letdown, which I still think in spite of Ran's protests to the contrary.

But when I visited last year, I found the middle of the front nine was much, much better than I'd remembered.  From my first trip, I thought the first three holes were great, and then it was kind of a blur until #8 and 9 ... I was quite surprised this time to find 4, 5 and 6 all to be outstanding holes.  A course with a front nine that good had to be better than a 5.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Sean and Tom:

It's interesting to see these mini-jumps; Tom's writeup (or whoever's) of Lundin is much more positive this time around, and it's good to see him (or whoever) encouraging people to stop off to/from St Andrews.

It is heartening and life / golf affirming that even experts miss things in their first passes, important things, and that there are courses many have seen but that few really get. (Probably more a links thing, as Tom's mention alludes, due to things like variable weather and the desensitizing effect of pornographic dunesland.) We run around chasing courses for that first play but major discoveries may lay right under our noses, in our little journals of courses already played. For we underlings to play a course again and know it for the first time.

(At some point I should just assign a number to this rant, so that in the future I can just post, "Number 73.")

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean we can debate rankings all day long, surely one of the strengths of the Confidential Guide. However a four lane highway is woefully inaccurate. Sadly many clubs have found 1920s back roads are now busy roads or the train line the golfers used to access the club fell foul of Mr Beeching. Poor old Walton Heath has a busy road to cross and lost I'm told some of their best holes to the M25.

It's a well known comment from American tourists at Windsor Castle that they cannot understand why "the Queen's castle was built under the Heathrow flight path".

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