CONFIDENTIAL GUIDE THOUGHTS

[Paul Gray]

Leckford was always most intriguing to me because it was a Colt course, 9 holes and you couldn't get on it!  Really was members, JL employees and their guests only.  There's a photo tour from about 10years ago on GCA pleased Tom gave it a thumbs up.  Anyone else ventured there?  It's not exactly in a prime area for other courses (I visited Tidworth too but it's not as good).

Paul,

Leckford is actually quite well placed in that you have Hampshire, Surrey and Dorset courses within range and you're not a million miles from some gems further north.

As for the course, it's nice. Interesting greens and some good holes, although a few are below the level you might expect from Colt. I was fortunate enough to play there last summer as I was working nearby at the time and was able to get permission from the club secretary. If you look at the thread running about par 3s tucked into corners you'll be able to see the 3rd. I'll try to put up a few more pictures in due course.

[Paul_Turner]

Paul

Good pic of the 3rd in that thread and any more pics would be nice, particularly 1 and 9 which I didn't get a pic of.

The old thread, you had better light but it doesn't look like much has changed, perhaps the modern penchant for wispy roughs

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,16516.0.html

[Paul Gray]

Paul

Good pic of the 3rd in that thread and any more pics would be nice, particularly 1 and 9 which I didn't get a pic of.

The old thread, you had better light but it doesn't look like much has changed, perhaps the modern penchant for wispy roughs

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,16516.0.html

Paul,

Just found your thread. Stupid oversight on my part not to check. When you mentioned not being able to play it I assume you meant that you hadn't been able to play it. Whoops.

My pictures of the 1st and 9th aren't great as I was only using my phone and they deserved a better camera. I will add pictures of both to your thread though.

I suspect/hope that the wispy rough is only present in the summer. I was there on a barmy September evening and imagine it would have had it's winter haircut by now. It's certainly not required at any time of year.

[Tom_Doak]

I think the Addington should have been kept because Tom's book kind of rescued it from being completely forgotten for decades.  It wasn't highlighted in the old AA guide that I know Tom used in 1982 and although I lived in nearby Crystal Palace it was never promoted as a course to play...

Peter Allen had Addington in his books but it didn't filter through to the magazines.

You can kind of tell that Tom used the old AA guide in 1982 because of the somewhat obscure courses he chose to visit that do well in that book:  Northampton, Ashridge, Crieff, Boat of Garten
But the Addington recommendation must have come from another source.

Paul:

I did indeed use that AA guide extensively on my first trip, partly because it had every course on the maps in the back.

I tried to get on The Addington because I had seen the diagram of the 8th at Addington (New) in Tom Simpson's book.  The course then was still owned by the family and they ran it haphazardly; they were the only course to turn me down when I wrote to set up a game, because I was by myself, and they didn't allow singles!  So I did not actually get there to play it until my return trip in 1985, when it was set up by a friend at GOLF WORLD.

My feelings on it are quite similar to what Sean said just above.  There are some terrific holes, and some weird ones, but it is not very well presented nowadays, and a bit hard to recommend for that reason.  But I did get Darius' great photo of the 13th hole in there.

[Jaeger Kovich]

The Addington is one of my all time favorites. I would have never played it had it not appeared in the Gourmet Choice in the previous edition. I would also never had sought out Coombe Hill had I not fallen in love with The Addington. I'd still like to see Aber's work at Knole Park... It was in moderate condition this summer.

[Paul Gray]

What seems to be the problem with The Addington at present?

[Sean_A]

Paul

For much of the year Addington doesn't properly dry out.  Often fairways have mud/worm casts and the issue extends to the cut lines as well. Addy is almost a picture perfect example of how not to cut a course.  Rough is left in all sort of dopey spots, eccentuating the damp conditions.  If they kept far more short grass, it would be better, but there can be no proper solution without attacking the trees.

Ciao

[Paul Gray]

Paul

For much of the year Addington doesn't properly dry out.  Often fairways have mud/worm casts and the issue extends to the cut lines as well. Addy is almost a picture perfect example of how not to cut a course.  Rough is left in all sort of dopey spots, eccentuating the damp conditions.  If they kept far more short grass, it would be better, but there can be no proper solution without attacking the trees.

Ciao

So predictable now is the model of stupidity being exercised at courses up and down the land, please feel free in future to just write "Same as." 

[Tom Kelly]

I'm another one confused by the 3 for Sherwood Forest, it's abit tight and penal but still.

I wish it was the level of the average course in the world!

It's a pity you didn't find Meyrick Park, though I'm not that surprised you had trouble finding it as it's pretty well hidden. Massively overgrown and tight now but I think you probably would have found a few things you liked.

On another slightly bias note you should have asked for a photo of Liphook, I'm sure the GCA crowd could have come up with a more appealing one than the photo of the 16th included.



All that said I am looking forward to having a more thorough read of the book, it's been really interesting so far!

[Garland Bayley]

PS

Worst scale rating in the book is Masa's 2 "a mediocre course with little architectural merit" for West Cornwall (Lelant)

While enjoying the BUDA cup this September I was reminded just how stunningly beautiful Cornwall is and that our once annual family visits somehow ceased about 15 years ago!

So we've booked a house in St Ives for New Year.  Luckily I had checked out the following and will be very surprised if what I find is indeed a 2.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39193.0.html

Tony, I think you will find West Cornwall a barrel of fun. The worst part of the course is the small size of the property which could lead to a bit of danger from players on other holes, more so when the wind is up I suppose. As far as hitting it and finding it in the wind, I had no problem in a two club wind, and as you know I may not be the straightest hitter out there.

[Ed Tilley]

PS

Worst scale rating in the book is Masa's 2 "a mediocre course with little architectural merit" for West Cornwall (Lelant)

While enjoying the BUDA cup this September I was reminded just how stunningly beautiful Cornwall is and that our once annual family visits somehow ceased about 15 years ago!

So we've booked a house in St Ives for New Year.  Luckily I had checked out the following and will be very surprised if what I find is indeed a 2.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39193.0.html

Tony,

I also spent family holidays every Easter in Cornwall which are now no more. We stayed on the Helford River on the Lizard and played golf every day - this was in my single days! If you are as far down as St.Ives I would strongly recommend Mullion. It is less than 30 minutes from St.Ives and is one of the most beautiful spots for golf I know. Course is a bit hit and miss but has a handful of really strong holes, and also the bizarre 6th. I would put it ahead of West Cornwall just but that might be for sentimental reasons (although top100golfcourses has it one place higher). I haven't got my guide yet so I don't know if Mullion is included - as the most southerly course on the mainland it's a long way down!

http://mulliongolfclub.co.uk/

Ed

[Sean_A]

18. Strandhill: I am quite surprised by the 5.  It was my impression that Tom wasn't impressed with the course...and his writeup seems to confirm this.  Although, Tom only pushes the 13th as special and indeed it is...if a bit kooky.  I was more impressed with the two par 5s on the front nine, #s 1 & 5 - especially #5 with the widest fairway on the planet combined with the weirdly tempting tee shot...given all the safe ground right....just a magnificent hole and the wonderful undulations top it off.  On the back nine, the uphill 12th and devilish short 14th are also very good holes.   5 is a fair grade, but I think this course is an inch from a 6...maybe the biggest surprise I have encountered in Ireland...it will definitely be on my hit list when I next visit the area.  

Ciao  

[Duncan Cheslett]

Sherwood Forest is a personal favourite of mine, so I am a tad shocked to learn that it only rated a 3.  To suggest that SF is at the level of the 'average' course world-wide is a little ridiculous to say the least. Most lists have it in England's top 100.

Reddish Vale's 5 & 6 are probably fair, particularly as Tom hasn't seen the place since 2000. I think he'd give us 6 now - hopefully we'll be knocking on the door of 7 by the time the next edition is published in twenty years or so! A lot of good work is going on and membership is rising - we're attracting a lot of low handicappers from other local clubs now that the condition of our greens is getting to be among the best in the region.

I've not got my own copy - I had a sneak look at Mark Rowlinson's last night - but I believe that no other course in the Manchester area made the book. I would suggest that Manchester(Hopwood), Prestbury, and Pleasington would all merit an entry.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I just got my first copy last night....

Lovely book - Well done Tom, Ran et al....

In general, it is refreshing to hear the concise and critical write-ups and all things equal, it is hard to really find fault with any of them.... But I will comment on the two of the courses closest to my heart: Carne & Portmarnock.

1. The Carne write-up was along the lines I expected and therefore I can have no quibbles with it (apart from a minor one with the misspelling of my name - but when you have a name like Alasdair McIntosh, there is a lot of room for error so all is forgiven). I'm glad to see that Tom found "3 or 4 holes" on the new nine that he really liked. And indeed there are a couple of "ski-slope fairways", the 3rd taking you down the hill and the 6th taking you back up, although the former is quite a strategic wee two-shotter once you play it. 2014 has been spent making big changes to the 12th hole on the Hackett course - described amusingly as a "silly 90 degree dogleg around a dune" - so as to soften the turn and also the green which has been lengthened from 19m to 38m. I look forward to Darius, Masa and Ran visiting again in the future.

2. I have to say I was a little disappointed to see Portmarnock drop from an 8 (previous edition) to a 7, especially considering the big advances in presentation, short grass surrounds and vegetation clearance since any of the reviewers last visited the course. Glad to see Masa held it in high regard (given he seems to be the harshest scorer) but I've still this feeling that the strength of the whole is masked by the lack of obvious world class holes that immediately spring to mind on a first or second visit. Tom doesn't mention this in his review so I don't know his take on it... but I usually judge people's opinion of Portmarnock by whether they are fooled in to believing the fallacy that the course primarily plays through dune valleys rather than over them - because it emphatically doesn't....

Anyway, that's my "sticking up for my own back yard comments" over with...

One other aside from my flick through to date: I was delighted to see Pulborough in the gourmet's choice with a nice write-up by Darius. Don't know why people keep ignoring this course.

[Cristian]

Fantastic book, really enjoyed reading it, although I have not read all course comments yet!

One omission which I would have expected to feature in the book Glasgow gailes. Perhaps an interesting addition for future updates.

http://www.gaileslinks.co.uk/photos.html

[Ally Mcintosh]

Just when I receive my book and want to have a discussion, it seems everyone else is over it....

Sean - Keep going. All is forgiven.

[Sean_A]

19. The Gullanes: I find it very sensible that the powers that be have kept all three courses within 1 point.  For the most part, I think of these three courses as varying lengths of the same thing...mainly because of the terrain and turf.  Gullane 1 eliminates some of the quirk of the other two courses, I expect for "championship reasons".  Gullane 3 has the best green sites and Gullane 2 has the weird downhill par 3.  I find myself more in Masa's camp here with the top score being 5.  That said, #3 is my favourite of the lot.  Its a great shame that all comers can't use the proper house, but I am not convinced the house is worth a £65 extra fee charged for #1.  Indeed, the £98 green fee is #1's biggest problem  . 

Ciao 

[Mark Pearce]

I'm struck by the disparity between three courses in the North East, Bamburgh (a dumb blonde in the original gets a 5, Brancepeth also, I think, a 5 and Northumberland the same 3 it got in the original (unsurprising, since it wasn't re-visited).  Bamburgh is, undoubtedly a beautiful place to play golf.  On a sunny day it has views that rival CPC.  The golf is rather more mundane, however, a couple of thrilling holes and a few more very ordinary ones.  Brancepeth features brilliant use of a ravine by Colt.  The ravine holes are excellent and Brancepeth worth a visit for those alone.  Some of the other holes are very ordinary.  Northumberland doesn't hit the heights of either Brancepeth or Bamburgh but is far more consistent.  The worst hole on the course wan't there in 1982, the then 11th was quite a good short par 4.  On different views one could rank these three in any order.  I think Brancepeth is the best of the three but Bamburgh the worst.  I do understand how others could form a different view.  I just don't understand how two can be 5s and one a 3.

I recall Tony Muldoon asking a few years ago which of Balcomie and Elie I thought was better.  I see Tom D believes Elie is and that's a view I have come to agree with over time.  Pleased to see the Craighead get decent scores.

[Rich Goodale]

I'm struck by the disparity between three courses in the North East, Bamburgh (a dumb blonde in the original gets a 5, Brancepeth also, I think, a 5 and Northumberland the same 3 it got in the original (unsurprising, since it wasn't re-visited).  Bamburgh is, undoubtedly a beautiful place to play golf.  On a sunny day it has views that rival CPC.  The golf is rather more mundane, however, a couple of thrilling holes and a few more very ordinary ones.  Brancepeth features brilliant use of a ravine by Colt.  The ravine holes are excellent and Brancepeth worth a visit for those alone.  Some of the other holes are very ordinary.  Northumberland doesn't hit the heights of either Brancepeth or Bamburgh but is far more consistent.  The worst hole on the course wan't there in 1982, the then 11th was quite a good short par 4.  On different views one could rank these three in any order.  I think Brancepeth is the best of the three but Bamburgh the worst.  I do understand how others could form a different view.  I just don't understand how two can be 5s and one a 3.

I recall Tony Muldoon asking a few years ago which of Balcomie and Elie I thought was better.  I see Tom D believes Elie is and that's a view I have come to agree with over time.  Pleased to see the Craighead get decent scores.

Mark

Northumberland is at least a 5, and Elie is definitely "better" than Balcomie.  I don't really do Doak, but if I did I'd give Balcomie a 5 and Elie a 6-7.  I'd give Craighead a 5 -6.

Rich

[Tom_Doak]

I'm struck by the disparity between three courses in the North East, Bamburgh (a dumb blonde in the original gets a 5, Brancepeth also, I think, a 5 and Northumberland the same 3 it got in the original (unsurprising, since it wasn't re-visited).  Bamburgh is, undoubtedly a beautiful place to play golf.  On a sunny day it has views that rival CPC.  The golf is rather more mundane, however, a couple of thrilling holes and a few more very ordinary ones.  Brancepeth features brilliant use of a ravine by Colt.  The ravine holes are excellent and Brancepeth worth a visit for those alone.  Some of the other holes are very ordinary.  Northumberland doesn't hit the heights of either Brancepeth or Bamburgh but is far more consistent.  The worst hole on the course wan't there in 1982, the then 11th was quite a good short par 4.  On different views one could rank these three in any order.  I think Brancepeth is the best of the three but Bamburgh the worst.  I do understand how others could form a different view.  I just don't understand how two can be 5s and one a 3.

Mark:

I saw all three courses thirty-two years ago; I went back to Bamburgh Castle a second time 10-12 years ago, and liked it much better the second time around.  I can remember many holes at Bamburgh [obviously, easier because I've seen it more recently], only the ravine holes at Brancepeth [but there are several], and practically none at all at Northumberland.

The fact that Northumberland is "far more consistent" in your words means nothing; for me it was consistently average.  I can't defend that score from 30 years ago too strongly, because I can hardly remember it, but "unmemorability" is a strong negative.

The problem lots of people have is thinking that if they like course A more than course B [say, Elie over Crail], then there should definitely be a one-point difference between them.  If you kept doing that for every discrepancy you'd have to have a 15- or 20-point scale.  There are definitely some 5's that I like better than others, but that doesn't mean they deserve a 6.

[Dan Kelly]

I just don't understand how two can be 5s and one a 3.

Mark --

Because those numbers are *One* *Man's* *Opinion* [emphases added], right?

I will remind myself of that if the Northern U.S. volume comes out and my home course gets a 3.

Dan

[Terry Lavin]

I just don't understand how two can be 5s and one a 3.

Mark --

Because those numbers are *One* *Man's* *Opinion* [emphases added], right?

I will remind myself of that if the Northern U.S. volume comes out and my home course gets a 3.

Dan

It's like all of the trial judges and wounded lawyers who complain about some of the stuff I write.  I remind them that the first word in what I wrote was "Opinion" and that we could be wrong!  Can't say that I've assuaged many with the one-liner, but it's true.

[Dan Kelly]

It's like all of the trial judges and wounded lawyers who complain about some of the stuff I write.  I remind them that the first word in what I wrote was "Opinion" and that we could be wrong!  Can't say that I've assuaged many with the one-liner, but it's true.

I guess the new "CG" is more en banc than the original, but the C.J. will stand alone on most courses, won't he?

[K Rafkin]

great read overall though i was really hoping for a few unknown 9s and 10s.  Maybe im just too romantic.

P.S.  If you were at bandon this week and saw some guy sitting at McKees reading the guide it might of been me....or my doppleganger. 

[Terry Lavin]

great read overall though i was really hoping for a few unknown 9s and 10s.  Maybe im just too romantic.

P.S.  If you were at bandon this week and saw some guy sitting at McKees reading the guide it might of been me....or my doppleganger. 

The typical doppelganger is a very benevolent tipper.  You might check your AMEX...