CONFIDENTIAL GUIDE THOUGHTS

[Mark Bourgeois]

Sean,

I agree with Mark. Plenty of courses, good courses, have road-crossing issues. The interesting point you make however is that Worplesdon's holes on the other side of the road are the best part of the course by far, with the possible exception of the 1st, or at least the 1st tee, which is very inviting. I suppose in the broadest terms having the best holes on the far side of a busy road is a trait of WHO, but I never found the crossing at WHO as fraught with...excitement...as Worplesdon's. The WHO road IIRC is straighter, narrower and not as busy. At Worpy you've REALLY got to want to play those far holes!

[Ryan Coles]

Sean we can debate rankings all day long, surely one of the strengths of the Confidential Guide. However a four lane highway is woefully inaccurate. Sadly many clubs have found 1920s back roads are now busy roads or the train line the golfers used to access the club fell foul of Mr Beeching. Poor old Walton Heath has a busy road to cross and lost I'm told some of their best holes to the M25.

It's a well known comment from American tourists at Windsor Castle that they cannot understand why "the Queen's castle was built under the Heathrow flight path".

Mark

A question on conditioning - how does Worplesdon normally compare to West Hill and Woking?

Worplesdon was quite muddy and scruffy in comparison to the other two last month, but this could have been a bad week.

[Sean_A]

23. Royal Aberdeen: There is a three point spread between four guys here - 7,8,5,8.  Masa is the odd man out.  Can folks try to explain why RA could elicit such different thoughts?  BTW - Doak pumped his score up from 5 to 7!  Tom, what was it you saw the second time around that you didn't previously?

Sean:

As I've explained several times before, two things which lowered my opinion of Royal Aberdeen the first time were

1)  the weather [wind and heavy rain for the entire three days I was in Aberdeen ... I have a great picture of a flagstick at Murcar bent like there's a 50-pound fish on the end of the line] and

2)  hangover effect from Cruden Bay ... which I had seen immediately prior in beautiful weather, and which was one of the highlights of my year overseas.

Also, I thought the back nine at Royal Aberdeen was a huge letdown, which I still think in spite of Ran's protests to the contrary.

But when I visited last year, I found the middle of the front nine was much, much better than I'd remembered.  From my first trip, I thought the first three holes were great, and then it was kind of a blur until #8 and 9 ... I was quite surprised this time to find 4, 5 and 6 all to be outstanding holes.  A course with a front nine that good had to be better than a 5.

Thanks Tom.  Interesting, but I am thinking that the back 9 may be better than the front.  The front is seriously hindered by tight dunes and when playing downwind...a lot of lay-up holes.  The back has a load more variety and I like the new work...very rare for me.  In any case, I would probably lean closer to 8 than 7.  5, I don't understand at all.  Ah well, RA is another scratched off me list...too dear for me. 

Mark B, yes, agree.  Its lovely to return to favourites and see what gives with new eyes.  I love North Berwick, but a light switched on this summer.  The course is better than a funky relic...much better.  For me, its damn near a perfect balance of quirk, challenge, beauty, holes on offer...and all with a very pleasant walk to be had.  I bumped NB well up. 

Ciao 

[Ted Sturges]

23. Royal Aberdeen: There is a three point spread between four guys here - 7,8,5,8.  Masa is the odd man out.  Can folks try to explain why RA could elicit such different thoughts?  BTW - Doak pumped his score up from 5 to 7!  Tom, what was it you saw the second time around that you didn't previously?

Sean:

As I've explained several times before, two things which lowered my opinion of Royal Aberdeen the first time were

1)  the weather [wind and heavy rain for the entire three days I was in Aberdeen ... I have a great picture of a flagstick at Murcar bent like there's a 50-pound fish on the end of the line] and

2)  hangover effect from Cruden Bay ... which I had seen immediately prior in beautiful weather, and which was one of the highlights of my year overseas.

Also, I thought the back nine at Royal Aberdeen was a huge letdown, which I still think in spite of Ran's protests to the contrary.

But when I visited last year, I found the middle of the front nine was much, much better than I'd remembered.  From my first trip, I thought the first three holes were great, and then it was kind of a blur until #8 and 9 ... I was quite surprised this time to find 4, 5 and 6 all to be outstanding holes.  A course with a front nine that good had to be better than a 5.

I find this very interesting.  Tom's explanation makes sense, but in essence, going from a 5 to a 7 illustrates that Tom was "wrong" about Royal Aberdeen (a course I love and one I have give a "Doak 8" in my personal ratings).  Tom, have you looked through the book to see if there are other courses that you have a grade that is 2 or more different from previous books?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, have you looked through the book to see if there are other courses that you have a grade that is 2 or more different from previous books?

Ted:

In general, I noted in the text where I had changed my grade considerably, and why.  There are several:  the #2 and 3 courses at Gullane, Shiskine, and Lundin Links were all upgraded [not sure if they were all upgraded +2].  It is nice to be able to correct the record for my past offenses.  Honestly, though, the more you guys bang on about Royal Aberdeen, the more I think about its negatives, and that maybe I should only have given it a 6 

[Sean_A]

25. Shiskine: Previously Doak gave this a 2; now it is a 5..."not to be missed".  A huge jump.  I haven't taken a good look, but others with a 2 point jump are Lundin (3-5) and Dunbar (3-5 and rightfully so).

26. Troon: With the big jumps it occurred to me that Tom may sneak in some demotions...step up Troon (8-7 and rightfully so).  I may take a look about and see what else gives.  BTW - Western Gailes to took a knock as well from lofty company to good also-ran (7-6).   

Ciao

[Buck Wolter]

Nice review of the Confidential Guide in the Scotsman

http://m.scotsman.com/sport/golf/top-stories/tom-doak-hands-top-marks-to-three-scottish-courses-1-3633824

[Mark Chaplin]

Nicely written? Huggan is the Hillside of golf journalism.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Interesting comment at the end of the article by someone claiming to be Chubby Chandler...

[Tom_Doak]

Interesting comment at the end of the article by someone claiming to be Chubby Chandler...

I doubt that Chubby Chandler would be lamenting the number of trees we cut down on the property ... or even have any idea how many we did cut down.  Probably just a disgruntled local.

I do wonder which greens at Renaissance he is referring to with "savage" drop-offs?

[Tom_Doak]

It was really good until his Renaissance comment: "you're having a laugh mate" or whatever he said - no back up to the statement at all. And he was doing so well!

I've got no problem with that.  I'm an easy target for writing a nice review of my own work.  He did not mention that my co-authors also rated The Renaissance Club higher than Gullane #2 or Dunbar -- where John is a member -- but perhaps he would think they were just being nice to me. 

And for all I know, he's right.

[Kyle Henderson]

So, this discussion group is critiquing an article reviewing a book that rates golf courses...

[Tom_Doak]

So, this discussion group is critiquing an article reviewing a book that rates golf courses...

You should all stop right away.  It's unprofessional. 

[Paul Gray]

So, this discussion group is critiquing an article reviewing a book that rates golf courses...

You should all stop right away.  It's unprofessional. 

Speak for yourself. 

[Adam Lawrence]

I like Huggy. He's a stirrer, but firstly, he generally stirs in favour of things I agree with, and secondly, God knows, we could do with more stirrers in the newspapers.

[Tony_Muldoon]

I like Huggy. He's a stirrer, but firstly, he generally stirs in favour of things I agree with, and secondly, God knows, we could do with more stirrers in the newspapers.

+1

[Ryan Coles]

I love Huggan's bitterness. He clearly doesn't particularly like his job or golf so generally spends his time moaning in a fairly entertaining manner.

He is the ever present militant scot on Twitter moaning about the English bias on weather forecasts etc and the lack of sky coverage of Paul Lawrie missing another cut.

Was a good player in his day apparently.

[Adam Lawrence]

Ryan - if you'd spent the day I spent with John at Askernish a few years ago you wouldn't question his love for golf.

[Ryan Coles]

I'll rephrase that. Professional Golf.

[David_Tepper]

I am enjoying the podcasts John Huggan is doing with fellow golf writer Lawrence Donnegan very much. Well worth hearing.

http://bythemingolf.libsyn.com/webpage/2014

[Thomas Dai]

A change of tack if you'll allow me.

1) I like the hole diagrams in the book. Thought provoking especially from the contouring perspective.

2) There is a wonderful overhead photograph of the Foxy 14th at Royal Dornoch.  Was it taken from a satellite or from a 'plane? Either way, it really enhances my appreciation of the hole so thanks for including it.

Atb

[Tom_Doak]

2) There is a wonderful overhead photograph of the Foxy 14th at Royal Dornoch.  Was it taken from a satellite or from a 'plane? Either way, it really enhances my appreciation of the hole so thanks for including it.

Thomas:

Thanks.  The photo came from Eoin Riddell, the greenkeeper at Dornoch.  I assumed it came from a drone, it looks like it was shot at pretty low altitude, but I was amazed at how well it illustrates the ridges that poke into the fairway.

[Mike_Clayton]

Ryan

If you spend 2 weeks,as I do, with Huggan at professional events - Australian Masters and Australian Open - you would know he enjoys professional golf. What he detests is what the game has been turned in to the administrators failing to control equipment and very boring golf courses mostly all arranged the same way to ensure fairness and predictability.

[Sean_A]

2) There is a wonderful overhead photograph of the Foxy 14th at Royal Dornoch.  Was it taken from a satellite or from a 'plane? Either way, it really enhances my appreciation of the hole so thanks for including it.

Thomas:

Thanks.  The photo came from Eoin Riddell, the greenkeeper at Dornoch.  I assumed it came from a drone, it looks like it was shot at pretty low altitude, but I was amazed at how well it illustrates the ridges that poke into the fairway.

Tom

Do you envisage specifically seeking out more drone shots in the future volumes?

27. Best Dormy Houses - Deal: Have you lot stayed there?  Its the Faulty Towers of DHs  .

Tom, which half dozen courses which Ran, Darius and Masa have not seen (as a group, not individually) would you say should be seen?

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

2) There is a wonderful overhead photograph of the Foxy 14th at Royal Dornoch.  Was it taken from a satellite or from a 'plane? Either way, it really enhances my appreciation of the hole so thanks for including it.

Thomas:

Thanks.  The photo came from Eoin Riddell, the greenkeeper at Dornoch.  I assumed it came from a drone, it looks like it was shot at pretty low altitude, but I was amazed at how well it illustrates the ridges that poke into the fairway.

Tom

Do you envisage specifically seeking out more drone shots in the future volumes?

27. Best Dormy Houses - Deal: Have you lot stayed there?  Its the Faulty Towers of DHs  .

Tom, which half dozen courses which Ran, Darius and Masa have not seen (as a group, not individually) would you say should be seen?

Ciao

Sean:

Certainly you must have heard the expression, beggars can't be choosers?  I think that most drone photos would be supplied by the clubs, and in general, I prefer other sources, so there is no question of the club influencing the substance of our review.  The Foxy photo came unsolicited and there wasn't much Royal Dornoch could do to improve its grade anyway

I have not thought much about the latter question, but fortunately the way I assembled the "courses in order of Doak scale rating" in the back of the book, it's easy enough to come up with a list based on my own rating:

7 - - -   Kington
6 - - -  Broadstone, Littlestone, Painswick, Stoneham
5 - - -  Boat of Garten, Hindhead, Leckford Old Course, Perranporth, Shiskine  [out of about 15 with the same rating; but maybe I should have included Cullen at 4 - - - ]