[Paul Gray]

I've just been watching a bit of the European Tour. On a course out in China, 22 under par leads after three rounds with a whole host of players not far back. Lake Malaren is something like 7,650 yards, things are green and lush, the air is heavy and, in short, the course is playing every inch.

Pinehurst this year was something like 100 yards shorter, firm, fast and acres of short grass was making it play shorter anyway and the air was anything but heavy. Just three of the world's very best golfers managed to break par. And yet, for the vast majority of club golfers, Pinehurst would provide the far more rewarding and enjoyable challenge, not to mention the best opportunity to score well.

So, you effectively have one model which is suitable for all and another which is suitable for no one. And yet what appears to be blatantly obvious to those of us that spend time and money in the pursuit of good golf is completely missed by everyone else in the game. Any number of questions could spin from this but, first and foremost, what will it take to effect change?

[Brent Hutto]

Only build courses in the sandhills of North Carolina and maintain them using $250 green fees?

[jeffwarne]

I've just been watching a bit of the European Tour. On a course out in China, 22 under par leads after three rounds with a whole host of players not far back. Lake Malaren is something like 7,650 yards, things are green and lush, the air is heavy and, in short, the course is playing every inch.

Pinehurst this year was something like 100 yards shorter, firm, fast and acres of short grass was making it play shorter anyway and the air was anything but heavy. Just three of the world's very best golfers managed to break par. And yet, for the vast majority of club golfers, Pinehurst would provide the far more rewarding and enjoyable challenge, not to mention the best opportunity to score well.

So, you effectively have one model which is suitable for all and another which is suitable for no one. And yet what appears to be blatantly obvious to those of us that spend time and money in the pursuit of good golf is completely missed by everyone else in the game. Any number of questions could spin from this but, first and foremost, what will it take to effect change?

Paul,
I get your point but....
having been to Pinehurst with amateurs I'd say they hardly scored well,(the word ping-pong came to mind)
and left pretty frustrated
and it's not cheap
Let's compare the course in China  to Palmetto, The Fields or something else a bit more fun, and far more affordable-"proper golf"

[David_Tepper]

Paul -

You are overlooking the reality that soils, climates, grasses, topographies, etc. vary enormously all over the world.

Given the heat and humidity found almost around the year in Southeast Asia, is it realistic to expect the playing conditions on courses there to be similar to courses in the British Isles?

DT   

[Paul Gray]

When I see responses like this here I really do wonder if the game has any hope.

Let's just stop this myth that good golf is in some way expensive. The opposite is true and you all know it. How many of you come to Britain to play courses with budgets which are just a fraction of their over watered brethren? And how many of you really believe that a sparsely maintained, firm and fast golf course is unattainable in China unless more money is thrown at the problem than is currently being spent to keep conditions lush and green? Come on.

[Pat Burke]

What are the costs for golf these days for members at
Royal Melbourne or Kingston Heath?

Haven't been to Australia in over 10 years

[Thomas Dai]

Golf in SE Asia is - was - a bit different. Played a great deal as a junior, many, many decades ago. Grass like wire wool, putting surfaces watered by hand held hose and with speeds running about 5-7 on the stimp, just about no wind, few bunkers, interesting snakes, high humidity, fairways either like rocks with the ball bouncing forever or after heavy rain/monsoon time wet with no run. Numerous ball catching deep drainage channels. Didn't give a damn. It was golf and it was fun and I remember it very fondly.

Quite diverse style clubs though, bottom-end or top-end, not much in between - eg ex-military base courses run on a semi-shoestring or massive expensive/exclusive country clubs with every facility under the sun - but despite the type of club the courses didn't play much different, the climate and grass type saw to that. I guess it's not the case these days.

atb

[jeffwarne]

When I see responses like this here I really do wonder if the game has any hope.

Let's just stop this myth that good golf is in some way expensive. The opposite is true and you all know it. How many of you come to Britain to play courses with budgets which are just a fraction of their over watered brethren? And how many of you really believe that a sparsely maintained, firm and fast golf course is unattainable in China unless more money is thrown at the problem than is currently being spent to keep conditions lush and green? Come on.

Paul,
You compared golf in China at a European Tour venue to golf at Pinehurst as the ideal
the responses you got were to that.
I don't see any evidence that the course in China is suitable to "no one", and anecdotally have evidence that Pinehurst is unsuitable to some(definitely not "suitable to all")

You brought up scores as being really low at the course in China, and high at Pinehurst.
Pinehurst isn't cheap(which makes it highly unsuitable to many),and arguably isn't a lot of fun to many people, due to confounding difficulty around the greens.

bad examples I'd say, of the point I think  you were trying to make.

[David_Tepper]

"+1 - the standard "the climate won't allow it" argument surfacing again..."

Brian S. -

If you don't think soil composition and climate can significantly impact the maintenance presentation of a golf course, you should talk to Alexander Macdonald, the head greenskeeper at Golspie GC. He has to deal with different soils and different micro-climates within the boundaries of those 18 holes. He will tell you how mistaken you are.

DT

[Adrian_Stiff]

The problem with proper golf is that it can only be played in the UK and a few places with very similar climates.
The problem with cheap golf is that it can only be played in the UK and a few places that dont rely on irrigation to keep the grass alive.
The right golf grasses exist in the UK and a few similar places throughout the world. Golf is different on Bermuda, Zoysia, Kikui, Paspalum and some climates those grasses are the ones best suited or only ones capable of surviving the 40 degree summer heats.

We are lucky.

Some countries cant supply golf to a reasonable standard without a million pound/dollar irrigation system...our courses here we save that cost and the annual upkeep.

Our Annual Subscriptions are circa £800 per year. Our members don't realise they are lucky.

[Terry Lavin]

I think Warne has nailed it. Pinehurst #2 is gimmicky difficult around the greens, so the example falls apart.

[David_Tepper]

Anyone seriously interested in the nature of golf in China should listen to the State of the Game podcast #47.

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2014/10/27/state-of-the-game-podcast-47-dan-washburn-china.html

[Joey Chase]

I think Warne has nailed it. Pinehurst #2 is gimmicky difficult around the greens, so the example falls apart.

Judge Levin,

Do you really find the green complexes gimmicky?  I think they are the best green complexes I've ever played and although challenging, great fun.  You are left with so many options in how to play each shot, that I have a hard time seeing anything but fun.  I would say the greens fee is beyond exorbitant though.  Given the option I would play there every day...  maybe not from the tips!

[Paul Gray]

I gave two extreme example, sure. That however doesn't dilute the fact that golf which appeals to all doesn't have to be expensive. How many enjoyable, dry tracks all around the globe? Does the Afghan golf example not say it all?

 

[Terry Lavin]

Maybe it was just the setup for the Open, because the pros couldn't hold anything. I called it the "hit and miss" Open for that reason.

[Ryan Coles]

I gave two extreme example, sure. That however doesn't dilute the fact that golf which appeals to all doesn't have to be expensive. How many enjoyable, dry tracks all around the globe? Does the Afghan golf example not say it all?

 

Paul

To be fair how many of the courses you like are particularly affordable? 

Say £1.000 subs / £45 per round?

Most in this price bracket are the ones you deride.

[Mark Pearce]

I gave two extreme example, sure. That however doesn't dilute the fact that golf which appeals to all doesn't have to be expensive. How many enjoyable, dry tracks all around the globe? Does the Afghan golf example not say it all?

 

Paul

To be fair how many of the courses you like are particularly affordable? 

Say £1.000 subs / £45 per round?

Most in this price bracket are the ones you deride.

Ryan,

Goswick is less than £400 a year, so is Silloth, so is Crail, Elie is less than £700, I imagine the majority of Scottish links are less than that.  Great golf is affordable in the UK when you get away from the South East.

[Ryan Coles]

I gave two extreme example, sure. That however doesn't dilute the fact that golf which appeals to all doesn't have to be expensive. How many enjoyable, dry tracks all around the globe? Does the Afghan golf example not say it all?

 

Paul

To be fair how many of the courses you like are particularly affordable?  

Say £1.000 subs / £45 per round?

Most in this price bracket are the ones you deride.

Ryan,

Goswick is less than £400 a year, so is Silloth, so is Crail, Elie is less than £700, I imagine the majority of Scottish links are less than that.  Great golf is affordable in the UK when you get away from the South East.

Mark

True enough although I would suspect the proportion of visitor income at Crail & Elie is significantly subsidising the cost of membership as it does at many of the better Scottish courses.

Siloth is extraordinarily good value. Not sure it gets the visits its quality deserves, but perhaps as Jon said, the members prefer it that way.

Although I see they're throwing the kitchen sink at the latest membership recruitment drive: http://www.sillothgolfclub.co.uk/kitchen-sink-membership-offer/

[Paul Gray]

I gave two extreme example, sure. That however doesn't dilute the fact that golf which appeals to all doesn't have to be expensive. How many enjoyable, dry tracks all around the globe? Does the Afghan golf example not say it all?

 

Paul

To be fair how many of the courses you like are particularly affordable? 

Say £1.000 subs / £45 per round?

Most in this price bracket are the ones you deride.

Ryan,

That's not really true. For a long time now I've been of the opinion that the worst courses are those middle of the road affairs with delusions of grandeur but little understanding of what makes the very best just what they are. With a heavy heart I have to say that my own home course, a course which should be far better than middle of the road, currently falls into that bracket.

The very best courses and the very cheapest are often actually pretty good. I could name any number of good courses which will set you back considerably less than £45 and don't suffer the kind of malpractice seen at their more esteemed neighbours. There's only so much you can get wrong with a very limited budget.

[Jon Wiggett]

There's only so much you can get wrong with a very limited budget.

So much wisdom in so few words

[Grant Saunders]

I gave two extreme example, sure. That however doesn't dilute the fact that golf which appeals to all doesn't have to be expensive. How many enjoyable, dry tracks all around the globe? Does the Afghan golf example not say it all?

 

Paul

I don't see how you can suggest that a course can appeal to all. It may be playable by all or a majority but that doesn't guarantee that it will appeal to all.

Playability and enjoyment aren't automatically the same thing.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Don't forget that it is easier to defend par when you redefine par as 70 rather than 72. This course in China is playing to a par of 72.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

It's getting tiresome to constantly hear that just turning off the water will provide a firm surface at a typical clay soiled course.  What turning off the water WILL provide is a dead surface that still really won't be that firm.  Consistently firm surfaces on clay soil courses require immense labor, water management, and cultivation efforts.  For a low budget facility, these processes are completely out of reach.  They can't afford the tons of sand required, the equipment to create voids for the sand and relieve thatch, they can't even afford to close the course to allow for cultivation it even if they had the sand and machines, they don't have the dollars for efficient irrigation systems, they don't have the manpower to have guys running around with hoses to supplementally irrigate, and in general 95% of their clientele doesn't give a shit about "firm" anyway.  Then to point to a completely SAND based low budget course and say "hey they can do f&f!" is even more ignorant.

[Mark Pavy]

There is another consideration- golf courses, in reality, are not always as green as they appear on TV. They are also immensely brighter then your TV set can display.

[Paul Gray]

It's getting tiresome to constantly hear that just turning off the water will provide a firm surface at a typical clay soiled course.  What turning off the water WILL provide is a dead surface that still really won't be that firm.  Consistently firm surfaces on clay soil courses require immense labor, water management, and cultivation efforts.  For a low budget facility, these processes are completely out of reach.  They can't afford the tons of sand required, the equipment to create voids for the sand and relieve thatch, they can't even afford to close the course to allow for cultivation it even if they had the sand and machines, they don't have the dollars for efficient irrigation systems, they don't have the manpower to have guys running around with hoses to supplementally irrigate, and in general 95% of their clientele doesn't give a shit about "firm" anyway.  Then to point to a completely SAND based low budget course and say "hey they can do f&f!" is even more ignorant.

This, again, is just a rehash of the 'climate won't allow it' argument.

Yes, obviously it is fair to say that clay is not the ideal for good golf, but to suggest that an organic material which has survived for millions of years without the 'help' of a sprinkler will suddenly die if it doesn't rain for a few weeks is simply not true. It may look dead to the average golfer, scruffy even, but it isn't dead, unless of course you've gone to the hugely uneconomic expense of importing alien grasses with the sole intent of artificially keeping them alive. Or are you really going to tell me that the U.S, for example, has no clay based course which are run on a shoe string budget by one man and his dog which have lively conditions in the summer months? I'm not suggesting such places are ever going to play like Pinehurst but they're not going to play like a four day PGA fertiliser advert either.

And even where grass might suffer, there seems to be a very black and white attitude sometimes to irrigation. There are choices other than 'on' or 'off.'

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