[Ru Macdonald]

Just to correct any myth. The club hasn't failed to make payments but only suggested cash flow was 'tight'.

Could the £45 greenfees actually deter international visitors with golfers questioning if the product is secondary. Murcar, while admittedly in a great location next to Aberdeen will implement a £100 green fee in 2015 for this very reason. Fraserburgh's golf experience is worthy of a £75 fee. You could introduce a local rate at the current £45?

[Jon Wiggett]

I do not think the answer is to ask £75. The European market for high greenfees is very limited meaning you would be relying on US players. I do wonder if this is wise. Were the US market to dry up there would be several big golf clubs in serious trouble.

If Fraserburgh wants to increase revenue then the best way is to increase footfall. The type of visitor who is deterred by a low GF almost certainly belongs to the box ticking community who would not look a Fraserburgh anyway. You need to get the connoisseur and not the box ticking numbskull.

I have to wonder however what the membership want?

Jon

[Thomas Dai]

Just to correct any myth. The club hasn't failed to make payments but only suggested cash flow was 'tight'.
Could the £45 greenfees actually deter international visitors with golfers questioning if the product is secondary. Murcar, while admittedly in a great location next to Aberdeen will implement a £100 green fee in 2015 for this very reason. Fraserburgh's golf experience is worthy of a £75 fee. You could introduce a local rate at the current £45?

A couple of points.

Other than for the experience or to tick courses off a list, the NE of Scotland is not good value for golf money thesedays. Sorry, but unless you go up Deeside or way up Donside it ain't a pretty or scenic area, it's damn cold and windy, the 'warm'-ish playing season is pretty short, being near Oil City UK means the accommodation and grub is costly and the courses seem pretty expensive - next year RAGC at £156, Murcar at £100, CB also at £100, Fraserburgh/Broch at £75, that's not particularly good value in comparison to other areas of the UK or Ireland you can visit for quality links golf. But if folk are prepared to pay that kind of money..........

As to local visitors, is there a County Card type local/national scheme for members of other clubs in place in the NE these days?

Private members clubs should IMO be very careful with visitor/society income. It's not the cake, the members are the cake. Visitor/society income is the cream/the cherry/the icing sugar on the top of the cake, and you're risking a trip to a very bad place if you decide to live on cream/cherry/icing sugar.

atb

[Paul Gray]

Just to correct any myth. The club hasn't failed to make payments but only suggested cash flow was 'tight'.

Could the £45 greenfees actually deter international visitors with golfers questioning if the product is secondary. Murcar, while admittedly in a great location next to Aberdeen will implement a £100 green fee in 2015 for this very reason. Fraserburgh's golf experience is worthy of a £75 fee. You could introduce a local rate at the current £45?

Ah, this takes me back to my student days. Goods of Ostentation. If it's only £200 it can't be a good diamond. You may just be on to something here, although nothing will flow without a suitable marketing campaign and a suggestion that something new and exciting is happening.

Do you have a UK residents rate and an overseas rate? I believe that happens in New Zealand at certain courses. 

[AJ_Foote]

Have been following this thread with interest and happy to say I'm hopefully more of a connoisseur than a box-ticking numbskull.

I'm organising a trip for 16 Aussies next year, through Aberdeenshire and into the Highlands.

Fraserburgh is already booked, in no small part to Ran's excellent review. Tom's words in my new copy of the Confidential Guide didn't do its chances any harm either.

Sadly, Murcar hasn't made the cut, which is a shame, but we can't play them all. At least not this time.

Truth be told, I'm looking forward to Fraserburgh as much as Trump, despite it costing me 20% of the fee. So low cost is anything but a deterrent for me.

This site does a great job of promoting the lesser known links, so if we want to help these clubs out, may I suggest we keep the reviews and discussions coming, and keep spreading the word.

Andrew

[Ru Macdonald]

Do you have a UK residents rate and an overseas rate? I believe that happens in New Zealand at certain courses.

No, Trump has implemented this which I believe is very tactical. Keeping the locals onside and the greenfee discussions relevant.

[Ru Macdonald]

AJ- fantastic - what's the course itinerary then?

[Paul Gray]

Do you have a UK residents rate and an overseas rate? I believe that happens in New Zealand at certain courses.

No, Trump has implemented this which I believe is very tactical. Keeping the locals onside and the greenfee discussions relevant.

As anyone here will tell you, I'm no fan of Trump. That however doesn't make it a bad policy.

[AJ_Foote]

Ru,

Flying into Glasgow, which allows for a cheeky opener at Prestwick.

Then, as it stands:

Cruden Bay (two or three times)
Trump
Royal Aberdeen
Fraserburgh
Moray Old
Castle Stuart x 2
Boat of Garten
Dornoch x 2
Tain
Brora x 2
Nairn

Looking to finish at Pitlochry as we make our way down to attend the first day of the Open.

Hoping to squeeze Cullen in also.

Andrew

[Ru Macdonald]

Andrew, looks great,

If you have yet booked accommodation try book up north of Aberdeen for the furst leg of trip. All courses are this side of the city which is notorious for traffic. Kilmarnock Arms my recommendation.

[AJ_Foote]

Thanks Ru, but a step ahead of you there.

Have already booked out the whole pub for four nights.

Andrew

[Ru Macdonald]

Thanks Ru, but a step ahead of you there.

Have already booked out the whole pub for four nights.

Andrew

Sounds like you have it all figured out but have any questions just ask!

[Thomas Dai]

Ru,
Flying into Glasgow, which allows for a cheeky opener at Prestwick.
Then, as it stands:
Cruden Bay (two or three times)
Trump
Royal Aberdeen
Fraserburgh
Moray Old
Castle Stuart x 2
Boat of Garten
Dornoch x 2
Tain
Brora x 2
Nairn
Looking to finish at Pitlochry as we make our way down to attend the first day of the Open.
Hoping to squeeze Cullen in also.
Andrew

Great trip. At the time of year you're going you'll have plenty of daylight to fit in a great deal of golf.

Missing out Golspie, that's a shame, it's fab.

By the way, when at Cruden Bay take the opportunity to play the St Olaf 9-holer. Holes 6/15 and 8/17 are probably the best two holes of the 27-holes, whoops, the 28-holes, on the entire property.

atb

[Eric Strulowitz]

This is one gorgeous course.  I checked the web site, what a deal for membership and what a deal for the traveling golfer looking for a base.

I could play that course over and over again.

Reaffirms that good  golf does not have to be expensive.     My goodness, it sure can be here!

[Bill_McBride]

Ru,
Flying into Glasgow, which allows for a cheeky opener at Prestwick.
Then, as it stands:
Cruden Bay (two or three times)
Trump
Royal Aberdeen
Fraserburgh
Moray Old
Castle Stuart x 2
Boat of Garten
Dornoch x 2
Tain
Brora x 2
Nairn
Looking to finish at Pitlochry as we make our way down to attend the first day of the Open.
Hoping to squeeze Cullen in also.
Andrew

Great trip. At the time of year you're going you'll have plenty of daylight to fit in a great deal of golf.

Missing out Golspie, that's a shame, it's fab.

By the way, when at Cruden Bay take the opportunity to play the St Olaf 9-holer. Holes 6/15 and 8/17 are probably the best two holes of the 27-holes, whoops, the 28-holes, on the entire property.

atb

Agreed on Golspie, great par 3s and nice mix of links and heathery holes.   I would recommend one round at Brora and one at Golspie. 

[Niall C]

Niall & Ryan -

Would you not agree that the vast majority of golf clubs in Scotland would be delighted to see more visitor play and more country/overseas members, regardless of where the visitors come from? Isn't tourism one of the main drivers of the Scottish economy?

In addition to help keeping golf clubs solvent (and dues for the members modest), golf tourism is of enormous benefit to the townspeople who operate B&B's, hotels, restaurants, shops, etc. adjacent or nearby golf clubs. 

It is a "win-win" as far as I can see.

DT

David

Most members want to paying zero subs, having a wonderfully manicured golf course, and no visitors in the way when they play. Getting all 3 simply isn't possible unless the club has an incredibly generous benefactor, hence there has to be compromise on one or more of those ideals. For the majority of clubs I would imagine the bulk of their income comes from members subs, then possibly bar takings or visitor fees depending on the club.

I'm sure the club doesn't really care where the visitors comes from but the point I was making to Ken for the vast majority of clubs there visitor business comes from comes from non-americans eg. locals.

Niall

[Thomas Dai]

....the vast majority of clubs there visitor business comes from comes from non-americans eg. locals.
Niall

Do Scottish locals have to pay full-wack greenfee to play at another local club (unless that is they play as a members guest) or is there some kind of local discount scheme if you're a member of another local (or Scottish) club?

For members of many clubs in England there is a County Card scheme, which gives some discount on greenfees at most, but not all, coures, not just lower echalon courses either, some classy ones too, and there is a similar scheme in Wales, although I'm not sure it's the whole of Wales, or just counties adjacent to one other.

atb

[Jon Wiggett]

Thomas,

the county card scheme is great for golfers but bad business for clubs. Up here in the Highlands there is no county style scheme as far as I know but many clubs did something even more stupid and that was reciprocals. Last time I checked in detail in 2010 you could join Lochcarron GC for £102 and get 3 free GFs at Ullapool, Strathpeffer, Evanton, Invergordon, Portmahomac, Tain (£10 per time) plus one or two others. Great deal for Lochcarron who saw money come in from quite a few new members who never actually played there but really crap for the courses where these players did go and play as they saw not a penny. I think this has now changed a bit.

Clubs need to decide what they feel their product is worth and then stick to it.

Jon

[Thomas Dai]

Thanks for this information Jon. I can understand the concern from the club aspect, especially from the postion of a 'better' club in a group with a few 'lessers'.

I've heard talk of reciprocals to, but on the basis that if you go to another club/course you have to have a meal which I guess adds some ££ to the arrangement.

Interesting how different places do different things.

atb

[Ken Moum]

...the point I was making to Ken for the vast majority of clubs there visitor business comes from comes from non-americans eg. locals.

Niall

I suppose you're right about the "majority of clubs), but I was referring to those with green fees in the range that seem absurd when you look as what memberships cost.  And that includes more than a few places most American golf travelers have never heard of:

Summer fees:

Scotscraig -- 65-80 GBP with annual subscription of 580
Brora -- 49-55 GBP with annual subscription 360
Tain -- 50 GBP with annual subscription 400
Royal Duff House -- 40-45 GBP with annual subscription 425
Golspie 45-55 GBP with annual subscription 345
RDC -- 120 GBP with annual subscription of ~500

All of them with annuals of less than 10 times a daily.

You're going to have a hard time convincing me that clubs with green fees like that are getting much of their visitor income from Scots.  If they were, they wouldn't be letting visitors play in their open comps for half what a daily green fee is.


Compare those to Cullen with a 18 GBP green fee and 360 annual

K

[Paul Gray]

Ken,

There seems to be an assumption (I apologise if I'm wrong), that clubs are attempting to maximise revenue from visitors. This assumption ignores the fact that many clubs are essentially happy to break even or, ideally, make enough to put a bit aside for a rainy day without having an overly busy golf course.

We all want perfect golf on a relatively empty course and therefore the price point is not simply a matter of where supply equals demand but more about where revenue is reasonable without overcrowding.

For example, at my club we charge £65 to visitors. If the club were to drop the green fee we could probably generate more revenue but then the rest of us wouldn't be too pleased. Equally, with something like 300 7 day members and another 300 5 days members, we are doing just fine and we're not currently taking any new members. At current prices of circa £1,200 per year we could quite possibly bring in another, say, 600 members if we went looking. The course however wouldn't be better for being more crowded and the finances are apparently OK so there just isn't any need. 

[Ken Moum]

Ken,

There seems to be an assumption (I apologise if I'm wrong), that clubs are attempting to maximise revenue from visitors. This assumption ignores the fact that many clubs are essentially happy to break even or, ideally, make enough to put a bit aside for a rainy day without having an overly busy golf course.

We all want perfect golf on a relatively empty course and therefore the price point is not simply a matter of where supply equals demand but more about where revenue is reasonable without overcrowding.

For example, at my club we charge £65 to visitors. If the club were to drop the green fee we could probably generate more revenue but then the rest of us wouldn't be too pleased. Equally, with something like 300 7 day members and another 300 5 days members, we are doing just fine and we're not currently taking any new members. At current prices of circa £1,200 per year we could quite possibly bring in another, say, 600 members if we went looking. The course however wouldn't be better for being more crowded and the finances are apparently OK so there just isn't any need. 

Good point.  It's like the place I'm playing next week.
 It gets (asks) $325 which is way above the area rates. But they don't need the revenue and that rate apparently  gets play where they want it.

My wife made the tee time and the said there was only.one other group.booked for.the day. She's playing free for doing volunteer work at a tournament there, and my friend and I get the guest rate of $150.

K

[Thomas Dai]

Some clubs used, not sure they all still do, to operate a kind of "we don't really want you visitors-societies but if you absolutely insist on coming you're gonna pay a big wedge of £" unofficial policy. Not sure they do these days, although some maybe might.

I do know one club though, which has full membership, where the members got so fed up not being able to play their own course, ie standing in the carpark watching societies tee-off and play, that they agreed to increase the annual subs by about 7% and highly limit society play. Visitors and guests, no problem though. Seems to be working, which is interesting.

One thing that has changed play at other clubs is more amateur Open Comps - singles, pairs, mixed, junior, senior, ladies, men's, team - play somewhere else, fixed dates, attractive pricing to play, possible prizes, courses maybe prepped a bit better, well organised and advertised - the catch, maybe not a catch, maybe it's the key - you have to have an active handicap, so you need to be a member somewhere else. This tends mean some categories of golfer, ie a non-member somewhere, misses out, but nothings ever perfect, and you need regulation hcp/playing ability wise if prizes are on the line coz bandits and chancers do exist. Food is often included in the price. One downside I've observed, I'm sure there are others - the prizes - they sometimes give M&S vouchers or the like - wrong IMO - the prize money should be staying within the golf business.

A growth area has been multi-course Open Comps - playing several different courses over consequtive days. Folk, like me and my friends, are basing golf trips/holidays around these events so tourism/lodging/food etc in the area also benefits.

Just some thoughts.

atb

[Sean_A]

atb

Isn't £100+ green fees about reducing visitors, but still bringing in visitor fees?  One of the very few clubs I know of who doesn't seem to care about visitors is Blackwell.  They charge £80 a game and I bet hardly anybody in England has heard of the course.  There is  winter deal, but one would have to be mad to play there in the winter.  A much more well known club, Beau Desert, only charges £70/75.  I think Blackwell's viistor fee is an obvious strategy to keep the course fairly empty for its relatively very low in numbers membership.  The best clubs have the luxury of deciding the balance of visitors/visitor cash they want.  Most clubs aren't so lucky, but I think this is mainly down to mediocre designs maintained poorly.  We have seen new top end clubs hit the market and charge the earth, so there is definitely a connection with quality/perceived quality and green fee price point.  Blackwell is a bit of an outlier, very cool design, but terrible maintenance.   

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

I know where your coming from Sean.

Blackwell is an interesting, maybe semi-unique example. I once observed a group of members playing an 8-ball there! Definitely a members first approach, and if it's a private club and all are paying loads of ££££ per year who's to say that's inappropriate.

They have a interesting approach to society requests - here's our price, here's a bigger price if you want a 2-tee start, oh, and here's our (massive hike) price if you really, really must have a shotgun start, ie we don't want you to have one but if you insist. It will be interesting to see how the course develops conditioning wise. I believe the Head Greenkeeper from South Staffs went there a year or so ago, and SS was always in quite outstanding nick, as it still is. Watch this space time I guess. With support it could really leap up, which would be nice, and there's also Franks bunker etc work as well. Should be a real cracker, but maybe not quite there yet.

atb

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