Seminole - new shared tee

[Edward Moody]

Just got back from a quick trip to Palm Beach and I visited Seminole Wednesday.  Crenshaw added a very cool new shared tee area on 1 and 10.  The open air halfway house has been torn down and the area where it stood is now all grass.  The halfway house is now around the corner behind the shop.

So, when you walk out of BF's professional shop you simply take several steps toward 1 and 10 and you are on the shared space.  The back tees on 1 were on the left of the teeing ground and the back tees for 10 were on the far right, but on the same box.  There is some pretty good distance increases on those holes.

I was told they looked at the original Ross routing and noticed some sort of shared tee for 1 and 10 so that was the inspiration.  I looked at the 1929 routing on the Tufts archives and you can see a shared teeing ground.  Today, each hole still has separate teeing areas for the forward and member tees, but this new shared space is neat looking and seeing nothing but grass is a good sight.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Edward,

In a decade plus here, I don't think I have ever seen the concept of shared tees discussed, so congrats on bringing up an original topic, at the very least.

Interesting thing about shared tees.  I love them, have designed them (including one on the drawing boards just last night) and defend them.  But, there are problems, depending on layout, that do occur in the real world.  Safety, waiting on others, noise, and even confusion and playing from the wrong tee (which in competition would be disastrous to score).   Lastly, at some cost conscious period of time a superintendent might wonder why he is treating an unused connector area as a tee, thus adding to cost.  (there usually is some unusable space on those things)

It would be interesting to know if any of those events occurred at Seminole.  Sometimes, I think the current wave or restorations simply forget the practical matters that caused the changes in the first place.

Not the best analogy, but I recall a project in Vegas, where a young landscape architect was proposing all sorts of trees.  A crusty old landscape architect pulls me aside and tells me that he tried those same trees before the other one was born, and they would never work long term.  Yes, there are new varieties, and yes, irrigation is better, but in the end, its one hot/cold season that is stronger than all those tools to push borderline plants.  The younger LA simply hadn't been around long enough to know the long term effects.

[Paul Jones]

Edward,

In a decade plus here, I don't think I have ever seen the concept of shared tees discussed, so congrats on bringing up an original topic, at the very least.

Interesting thing about shared tees.  I love them, have designed them (including one on the drawing boards just last night) and defend them.  But, there are problems, depending on layout, that do occur in the real world.  Safety, waiting on others, noise, and even confusion and playing from the wrong tee (which in competition would be disastrous to score).   Lastly, at some cost conscious period of time a superintendent might wonder why he is treating an unused connector area as a tee, thus adding to cost.  (there usually is some unusable space on those things)

It would be interesting to know if any of those events occurred at Seminole.  Sometimes, I think the current wave or restorations simply forget the practical matters that caused the changes in the first place.

Not the best analogy, but I recall a project in Vegas, where a young landscape architect was proposing all sorts of trees.  A crusty old landscape architect pulls me aside and tells me that he tried those same trees before the other one was born, and they would never work long term.  Yes, there are new varieties, and yes, irrigation is better, but in the end, its one hot/cold season that is stronger than all those tools to push borderline plants.  The younger LA simply hadn't been around long enough to know the long term effects.

Jeff, 

All good points, but I would doubt any of those would apply to Seminole.  Especially since it is the 1st and 10th hole.  They have caddies and very little unaccompanied play and that is where the half way house use to be, so there were always people around talking. 

[Bill_McBride]

We have a shared tee for our 14th and 17th back tees and it's actually fun to get there and interact with another group.  Usually some good natured badinage.   

[Jeff_Brauer]

Paul,

Yes, the caddies would help, as would the presumable condition of most of the foursome being sober!  For that matter, the cost issues are unlikely to apply at Seminole as they would at Tidily Lines CC.....

[BCrosby]

We built (morphed?) some shared tees in recent years.  They are all back tees and have been very successful. We plan to build a couple more.

For a land-locked course needing to find additional length, shared tees are a good solution. Our members enjoy the interaction with other groups and happily put up with the minor additional waits.

Bob

[Mark Bourgeois]

Very interesting, Edward.

Based on aerial photos circa 1930 I am skeptical 1 & 10 originally shared tees. The photos might show a patch of "commonly-mowed area" but trees, mowing patterns, and some sort of structure (or possibly even a tree) appear to define separate tees.

By the way, regarding that plan, the 18th 9th green was not built where Ross put it. It was built farther over towards 1 and 10 tees. So the plan is probably not a perfect representation of what Ross put in the ground, particularly as regards that area of the course in particular. I say "probably" because the old aerials are date uncertain. The archivist in control of the aerials told me they are possibly as old as 1929. But we have to allow for the possibility, however small, that Ross built the course precisely to plan and then in the first year or two major changes, such as the entire relocation of the 18th 9th green complex. I suppose club records might indicate whether something like that happened but I don't have access to those.

[Edward Moody]

Mark, from my brief conversation when I was there, I got the understanding that although the shared tee was in the original plan, it never went in.  It could have been built and quickly changed, but my impression was that the routing showed the shared tee but it wasn't implemented.  Maybe Crenshaw say the drawings and went "hey, there's an idea".

Next time I'm with Ben I will get some of his thoughts and share...

[Keith Grande]

A recent post from Mike Nuzzo outlined a new dual tee, based on a renovation which took place post-Sandy at Woodmere on Long Island, holes #4 and #10

www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59568.0.html

[Tyler Kearns]

Edward,

The Ross plan for Seminole does indeed show a shared tee for holes No. 1 & 10. 
Below is a link to the Tufts Archive drawing;

http://tuftsarchives.com/vex/vex1/images/AC4BFF35-4D97-4B41-8C7A-831800137265.jpg

TK

[Mark Bourgeois]

Wait, I was looking at a different 1929 plan, one showing the 9th green over to the right. And I see I made a mental error in my earlier post: I meant to say the 9th hole was built in a different spot from the plan. Let me make that correction.

[Tyler Kearns]

Edward,

In a decade plus here, I don't think I have ever seen the concept of shared tees discussed, so congrats on bringing up an original topic, at the very least.

Interesting thing about shared tees.  I love them, have designed them (including one on the drawing boards just last night) and defend them.  But, there are problems, depending on layout, that do occur in the real world.  Safety, waiting on others, noise, and even confusion and playing from the wrong tee (which in competition would be disastrous to score).   Lastly, at some cost conscious period of time a superintendent might wonder why he is treating an unused connector area as a tee, thus adding to cost.  (there usually is some unusable space on those things)

It would be interesting to know if any of those events occurred at Seminole.  Sometimes, I think the current wave or restorations simply forget the practical matters that caused the changes in the first place.

Not the best analogy, but I recall a project in Vegas, where a young landscape architect was proposing all sorts of trees.  A crusty old landscape architect pulls me aside and tells me that he tried those same trees before the other one was born, and they would never work long term.  Yes, there are new varieties, and yes, irrigation is better, but in the end, its one hot/cold season that is stronger than all those tools to push borderline plants.  The younger LA simply hadn't been around long enough to know the long term effects.

Jeff,

The notion that some of the teeing area on shared tees will never be used is a good one, especially as is the case of Seminole, when the holes are playing in the same general direction.  Holes playing perpendicular or in opposite directions would not face the same issue and would allow one of the two holes to be stretched back further than if each hole had a separate tee.  Safety is certainly the biggest consideration in designing shared tees.

Like you, I've included a shared tee on a renovation plan we are currently working on.  In this case, at a 9-hole course, we are trying to squeeze some extra yardage and incorporate a varied angle on the tee shot to allow the hole to be played quite differently when golfers play the hole on the front and again on the back nine.

TK

[Anthony_Nysse]

#2 and #9 share a tee in a soft L along with #11 and #17 here at Pine Tree.

[Ronald Montesano]

Speaking of Seminole, that talk about the Walker Cup quieted down, didn't it?

[Joey Chase]

I am a big fan of the shared tee.  I helped with finish shaping and tee leveling on one at Metropolis CC in Westchester.  It turned out great, although I haven't been back nor have I heard positive or negative about it.

[JMEvensky]

I am a big fan of the shared tee.  I helped with finish shaping and tee leveling on one at Metropolis CC in Westchester.  It turned out great, although I haven't been back nor have I heard positive or negative about it.

Which tee? An uncle is a member.

[Joey Chase]

It's been a few years, but I believe it was the 5th and 18th holes although I may be off on that though so don't quote me.  I liked the course quite a bit, your uncle is fortunate.

[Howard Riefs]

It's been a few years, but I believe it was the 5th and 18th holes although I may be off on that though so don't quote me.  I liked the course quite a bit, your uncle is fortunate.

Correct, according to their website:

"...In the Spring of 2012 we revealed our newly built 5 & 18 tee complexes. The new design creates more teeing area and improved visibility of each fairway of the golf course. The work, planned and overseen by golf course architect Dave Heatwole, slightly altered the two holes and enhanced the playability of our already great golf course. The tees on the 5th hole were rebuilt, adding 15 yards to the back tees, stretching the 5th hole to 401 yards. The dogleg-right will be softened and the fairway will be more visible from the tee boxes. For the 18th, the goal was to create a memorable finish. The renovation eliminated the severity of the dogleg-right and added approximately 20 yards to the back tees, lengthening it to 404 yards.

http://www.metropoliscc.org/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=353669&ssid=259628&vnf=1

[Joey Chase]

It's been a few years, but I believe it was the 5th and 18th holes although I may be off on that though so don't quote me.  I liked the course quite a bit, your uncle is fortunate.

Correct, according to their website:

"...In the Spring of 2012 we revealed our newly built 5 & 18 tee complexes. The new design creates more teeing area and improved visibility of each fairway of the golf course. The work, planned and overseen by golf course architect Dave Heatwole, slightly altered the two holes and enhanced the playability of our already great golf course. The tees on the 5th hole were rebuilt, adding 15 yards to the back tees, stretching the 5th hole to 401 yards. The dogleg-right will be softened and the fairway will be more visible from the tee boxes. For the 18th, the goal was to create a memorable finish. The renovation eliminated the severity of the dogleg-right and added approximately 20 yards to the back tees, lengthening it to 404 yards.

http://www.metropoliscc.org/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=353669&ssid=259628&vnf=1

Well there you go!  Thank you Howard.

[JMEvensky]

It's been a few years, but I believe it was the 5th and 18th holes although I may be off on that though so don't quote me.  I liked the course quite a bit, your uncle is fortunate.

Thanks. I enjoy playing there.

[Howard Riefs]

Two courses that I regularly play have shared tees...

Kingsley...
Shared back tee for #3 and #5
http://www.kingsleyclub.com/course-tour/

Winnetka Golf Course (old Langford though I don't know how much Langford is left)
A pair of shared tees: #9 and #11 ... #8 and #12
http://www.winpark.org/images/18-hole-map.jpg

[Tim_Weiman]

Edward,

In a decade plus here, I don't think I have ever seen the concept of shared tees discussed, so congrats on bringing up an original topic, at the very least.

Interesting thing about shared tees.  I love them, have designed them (including one on the drawing boards just last night) and defend them.  But, there are problems, depending on layout, that do occur in the real world.  Safety, waiting on others, noise, and even confusion and playing from the wrong tee (which in competition would be disastrous to score).   Lastly, at some cost conscious period of time a superintendent might wonder why he is treating an unused connector area as a tee, thus adding to cost.  (there usually is some unusable space on those things)

It would be interesting to know if any of those events occurred at Seminole.  Sometimes, I think the current wave or restorations simply forget the practical matters that caused the changes in the first place.

Not the best analogy, but I recall a project in Vegas, where a young landscape architect was proposing all sorts of trees.  A crusty old landscape architect pulls me aside and tells me that he tried those same trees before the other one was born, and they would never work long term.  Yes, there are new varieties, and yes, irrigation is better, but in the end, its one hot/cold season that is stronger than all those tools to push borderline plants.  The younger LA simply hadn't been around long enough to know the long term effects.

Jeff,

Can you also spell out the case for shared tees?

[Dunlop_White]

At Old Town, we have a "double green" at Holes 8 and 17. Immediately thereafter, Coore & Crenshaw recaptured our "shared tee" at Holes 9 and 18. However, we decided to go with the same tee markers for both holes. (It looked too cluttered to have a "shared tee" with all kinds of markers on it. And to minimize any confusion, we added a directional rock flush in the ground.



Coore recommends we join Hole 1 and 10 tees also. It's on our punch list of upcoming "in-house" projects.

[Matthew Petersen]

ASU Karsten (Dye) has a shared tee for 9 and 18. On the back tees have a shared area and there is the potential for confusion of the sort that Jeff brings up. The holes border a lake. 9 plays left to right around the left side of the lake; 18 right to left around the right side. But the tee for 9 is on the right side of the teeing ground and the tee for 18 is on the left side of the teeing ground. It increases the angle of the dogleg on both shots.

Problem is, you could easily play #9 without realizing this. You would realize it when you tried to play #18. There's a tree right of the tee box that would make playing to #18 fairway from the 9th (but right side) tee impossible. But there's not really anything to alert you about this otherwise. I hope in tournaments they mark it clearly.

[Edward Moody]

Dunlop,

Thanks for posting that.  I played Old Town in September last year.  What a gem you have there.