Streamsong is

[Patrick_Mucci]

I don't have a map in front of me, and I realize Streamsong is on the west side of FL, but is it really as far west as Detroit, as Pat suggested? 

YES

Didn't realize FL was in the Southwest.   

Miami is further West than Pittsburgh.

Didn't you UGA guys have to take geography before being admitted ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I can see why someone who lives where it's cold, dark and miserable for 4+ months a year would think Streamsong's Florida location is an advantage over Bandon or the UK.

But speaking as someone who lives in the southeastern USA where it is hot, muggy and insect-plagued for 4+ months a year I'd say traveling to a hotter, muggier, more insect-plagued place seems less attractive.

Brent,

That's when the intelligent folks in the Southeastern USA head north for the summer.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat - for my winter golf I can go down to Naples or Orlando or West Palm or Scottsdale, stay at friends places and play most anywhere.  

Stay at a friend's house ?
Nothing like changing the circumstances.

Where can you play a superior public course in West Palm ?

Ditto Naples ?

That's a pop-in, pop-out trip.  For my resort/destination golf, which Streamsong is to me, I feel like I've been there, done that, with Streamsong.  

If I'm going to drop a grand a day, I'll prefer to do it somewhere more exotic in the future.

OK, like where ?  ?  ?  

And my crew seems to agree - yours may not.  
But, like I said, time will tell.

Bitching and moaning....please.

[Patrick_Mucci]

It's a bit better - but you read the part where I wrote that I've been there three times, right?

Expensive is a fact, not a complaint.

It's not as expensive as Bandon !

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is it more expensive all-in than Bandon, at least during their respective high seasons? 


Carl,

It's not.

I just came from a weekend in Bandon and the following weekend at Streamsong.

Both are great, but, Bandon, all in, is more expensive, far more expensive than Bandon, especially when you live in the Northeast.

It looks like in mid-March 2015 you can pay about $550 at Streamsong for a night of lodging and 36 holes of golf one of the days. 
I don't think Bandon is any cheaper than that in June. 

And that's before you factor in airfare; for me, at least, it's way cheaper to fly to Tampa or Orlando than North Bend or Eugene. 

"Way cheaper" is an understatement, from the Northeast.  
[/quote]

[Patrick_Mucci]

No, but it's commensurate.  It wasn't an apples to apples comparison.

Just saying, if dropping a shitload of money, I'd much rather go somewhere new and somewhere more exotic than Central Florida.  And, I'm saying that we will see in the next 5 years or so whether others agree - or if they keep coming back.  That's all.

In principle, I don't disagree with your thinking.

But, in practice, in reality, tell us where that might be.

[JR Potts]

No, but it's commensurate.  It wasn't an apples to apples comparison.

Just saying, if dropping a shitload of money, I'd much rather go somewhere new and somewhere more exotic than Central Florida.  And, I'm saying that we will see in the next 5 years or so whether others agree - or if they keep coming back.  That's all.

In principle, I don't disagree with your thinking.

But, in practice, in reality, tell us where that might be.

It could be anywhere - Bandon, Scotland, Ireland, Spain, Cabo....doesn't matter.  It's just a big number to play at Streamsong...on a repeat basis...when there are other great places to go...a number much bigger than I thought when it was being developed. 

Regarding the money, personally, I don't give a crap about the money.  I make enough to go where  I want whenever I want (wife and family and work? restrictions notwithstanding).  But a lot of my friends care.  Regarding West Palm, I typically don't play public courses.  I typically don't play them in Orlando or Naples or Phoenix either...but even so, I certainly play those private courses much cheaper than Streamsong.  For my friends, if they're going to drop a grand a day, it better be a ultra-memorable trip, a once in a lifetime trip.  You think Streamsong meets that criteria?  You think it meets that criteria for a repeat trip over a slightly more expensive golf endeavor?   

As it sits now, I don't think it does...not for me, and I bet, not for that masses.  But who knows, that masses may be bigger than I estimate.

[Patrick_Mucci]

No, but it's commensurate.  It wasn't an apples to apples comparison.

Just saying, if dropping a shitload of money, I'd much rather go somewhere new and somewhere more exotic than Central Florida.  And, I'm saying that we will see in the next 5 years or so whether others agree - or if they keep coming back.  That's all.

In principle, I don't disagree with your thinking.

But, in practice, in reality, tell us where that might be.

It could be anywhere - Bandon, Scotland, Ireland, Spain, Cabo....doesn't matter. 

Of course it matters.
Bandon, Scotland and Ireland are "new" and more "exotic" ?
Spain, a golf destination ?  ? ?



 It's just a big number to play at Streamsong...on a repeat basis...when there are other great places to go...a number much bigger than I thought when it was being developed. 

The problem is that the places you named are all more expensive than Streamsong

Regarding the money, personally, I don't give a crap about the money.  I make enough to go where  I want whenever I want (wife and family and work? restrictions notwithstanding).  But a lot of my friends care.  Regarding West Palm, I typically don't play public courses.  I typically don't play them in Orlando or Naples or Phoenix either...but even so, I certainly play those private courses much cheaper than Streamsong. 


Which courses in Palm Beach ?

I don't equate being a guest at a private course and staying at a friends house, gratis, with staying at and playing resort courses


For my friends, if they're going to drop a grand a day, it better be a ultra-memorable trip, a once in a lifetime trip. 


Would you substantiate your claim that it costs $ 1,000 a day to play Streamsong.
I just returned from several days at Streamsong and want to compare my bill to your claim

You think Streamsong meets that criteria? 
You think it meets that criteria for a repeat trip over a slightly more expensive golf endeavor?   

From October to May......... YEP

As it sits now, I don't think it does...not for me, and I bet, not for that masses.  But who knows, that masses may be bigger than I estimate.

270 rounds on a Friday and 300 rounds on Saturday would seem to indicate that you're wrong

[Patrick_Mucci]

When Streamsong adds another high quality course, it will attract more golfers, and result in higher occupancy in the hotel.

As to price, it's a golf resort, not a local muni.

There were golfers playing Streamsong who came from near and far.

If Streamsong is smart, and I believe that they are, they'll hire an architect other than C&C and TD to design their next course.

Imagine being able to offer four (4) very distinct golf courses.
A fabulous, Doak, a fabulous C&C, a fabulous Gil Hanse, A fabulous Fazio or Fabulous Dye course ?

It would enhance the attractiveness tremendously.

Some golfers aren't keen on Doak or C&C courses.
Some love Nicklaus courses, some love Fazio courses, so why not offer a greater selection for the golfing enthusiast whose tastes vary ?

[Tom_Doak]

If Streamsong is smart, and I believe that they are, they'll hire an architect other than C&C and TD to design their next course.

Imagine being able to offer four (4) very distinct golf courses.
A fabulous, Doak, a fabulous C&C, a fabulous Gil Hanse, A fabulous Fazio or Fabulous Dye course ?

It would enhance the attractiveness tremendously.

Some golfers aren't keen on Doak or C&C courses.
Some love Nicklaus courses, some love Fazio courses, so why not offer a greater selection for the golfing enthusiast whose tastes vary ?

Patrick:

I'm sure they will do as you suggest and hire someone else.  However, I'm not sure it's that smart.  Do you think Old Macdonald and Pacific Dunes are too much alike?

I just saw a brand-new Nicklaus course in Nassau, The Bahamas last week -- hasn't opened yet.  You might have mistaken it for my work, away from the water holes, anyway.  Gil Hanse's work isn't exactly radically different from mine or Bill Coore's, either.  Sure, you could tell them to design something radically different than the first two courses, and they are entirely capable of doing it.  But so could Bill Coore, and so could I.

Unfortunately, many people's idea of "diversity" in golf architecture is just about having different names to market.  But, I am happy you continue to be such a big booster of Streamsong.  I'm going back for their Invitational in January. 

[JC Jones]

Tom,

I don't really understand what you are trying to say here.  Why would people mistake Nicklaus's new course for your work?  Because of the aesthetics?  Certainly you bring more to the table than aesthetics?  Or, are you saying his routing, pacing, bunker placement and strategy are your style?  If so, why?

Is Old Macdonald really a fair comparison?  That was a course inspired by templates where you were co-designer and input was given from many people from Mr. Bahto, to Brad Klein, to etc.

I think it is unfair to discount other architects' work as "copy cat" work.

[Mike Hendren]

Doesn't the Streamsong landscape compress various architectural styles?  I can't even remember who did which of the two existing courses.  No spot there for a Bandon Trails transition through nature.

Perhaps C&C could reprise Talking Stick North on the flat land, but it would only serve as a relief course.  I'd love to see Doak tackle a dead flat site.  He's got skills.

Bogey

[Ian Mackenzie]

I am heading down there in the first weekend in January.
We have a house in Naples, FL area, but flights into Fort Myers were too spendy, so we are flying in and out of Tampa.

On the way back, we (wife and I) decided to check out Streamsong. So, on Sunday, less than 3 weeks beforehand - during one of the busiest holiday weekends of the year (I think) - we were able to 1) get any room we wanted at Streamsong and 2) get any tee time we wanted.

I will be there on Jan 3 and 4 if any other GCA-ers are there.....

Also playing: Calusa Pines, Hole in the Wall and Quail West.

Cheers,
Ian

[John Kavanaugh]

I am heading down there in the first weekend in January.
We have a house in Naples, FL area, but flights into Fort Myers were too spendy, so we are flying in and out of Tampa.

On the way back, we (wife and I) decided to check out Streamsong. So, on Sunday, less than 3 weeks beforehand - during one of the busiest holiday weekends of the year (I think) - we were able to 1) get any room we wanted at Streamsong and 2) get any tee time we wanted.

I will be there on Jan 3 and 4 if any other GCA-ers are there.....

Also playing: Calusa Pines, Hole in the Wall and Quail West.

Cheers,
Ian

Congrats, I am always impressed that anyone can afford to go on a golf trip with the wife. Try the skeet shooting at Streamsong, after the golf of course.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

I don't really understand what you are trying to say here.  Why would people mistake Nicklaus's new course for your work?  Because of the aesthetics?  Certainly you bring more to the table than aesthetics?  Or, are you saying his routing, pacing, bunker placement and strategy are your style?  If so, why?

Is Old Macdonald really a fair comparison?  That was a course inspired by templates where you were co-designer and input was given from many people from Mr. Bahto, to Brad Klein, to etc.

I think it is unfair to discount other architects' work as "copy cat" work.

JC:

Baha Mar, the Nicklaus course in Nassau, had all the turf mowed tight even from green to tee and from one tee into the next; it used bunkers as buffer between the turf and some exposed native rock; it had two par-4's under 310 yards; and it had undulating greens the way Jack never used to build ten years ago, but the way all of his new courses do.  So, it's a bit more than the aesthetics which someone might think are unlike Jack's work and more like others'.

I didn't use the word "copy cat", you did.  I just meant it's getting harder to tell who is doing what anymore, most modern designs are trending toward the same look regardless of designer.  You hear that observation here all the time now, usually with a dig at us like "I wish nobody had said who the designer was before we saw these pictures, everybody would have praised the course thinking Doak or C & C had built it."

And, yes, Old Macdonald is a fair comparison.  Like Sebonack, it might not be as good if I'd done it by myself -- but I sure knew how to build it and to make it different.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I am heading down there in the first weekend in January.
We have a house in Naples, FL area, but flights into Fort Myers were too spendy, so we are flying in and out of Tampa.

On the way back, we (wife and I) decided to check out Streamsong. So, on Sunday, less than 3 weeks beforehand - during one of the busiest holiday weekends of the year (I think) - we were able to 1) get any room we wanted at Streamsong and 2) get any tee time we wanted.

I will be there on Jan 3 and 4 if any other GCA-ers are there.....

Also playing: Calusa Pines, Hole in the Wall and Quail West.

Cheers,
Ian

Congrats, I am always impressed that anyone can afford to go on a golf trip with the wife. Try the skeet shooting at Streamsong, after the golf of course.

Thanks, John.
It has been a 10 year project for me and today i can safely say that I enjoy playing with my wife. She is a very good athlete, can hit it 200+ off the tee and, if she could putt, would be a 16 hdcp. She picks up when she hits "8" or "dog balls"....

For years, she chose to use my old Wilson 8802 until I implored her to change. We can play 18 together at our course in well under 3 hours. A statement to which I know you are ambivalent....

And, yes, we have even played with our dog. But only after November 1 and before Apr 15 as I dont like to take the dog on course due to all the chemicals.

[Rob Marshall]

If Streamsong is smart, and I believe that they are, they'll hire an architect other than C&C and TD to design their next course.

Imagine being able to offer four (4) very distinct golf courses.
A fabulous, Doak, a fabulous C&C, a fabulous Gil Hanse, A fabulous Fazio or Fabulous Dye course ?

It would enhance the attractiveness tremendously.

Some golfers aren't keen on Doak or C&C courses.
Some love Nicklaus courses, some love Fazio courses, so why not offer a greater selection for the golfing enthusiast whose tastes vary ?

Patrick:

I'm sure they will do as you suggest and hire someone else.  However, I'm not sure it's that smart.  Do you think Old Macdonald and Pacific Dunes are too much alike?

I just saw a brand-new Nicklaus course in Nassau, The Bahamas last week -- hasn't opened yet.  You might have mistaken it for my work, away from the water holes, anyway.  Gil Hanse's work isn't exactly radically different from mine or Bill Coore's, either.  Sure, you could tell them to design something radically different than the first two courses, and they are entirely capable of doing it.  But so could Bill Coore, and so could I.

Unfortunately, many people's idea of "diversity" in golf architecture is just about having different names to market.  But, I am happy you continue to be such a big booster of Streamsong.  I'm going back for their Invitational in January. 

Tom,
The Red is referred too as a C&C course. However a few times when referring to the Red you have only referenced Bill Coore. Was Ben Crenshaw involved in the design work on the Red course? I'm getting the impression not.

[HarryBrinkerhoffDoyleIV_aka_Barry]

I had also heard something to the effect of the Red having holes in which Tom designed, and the Blue having some holes that Bill and Ben designed.  If Tom wouldn't mind commenting on that (or someone pointing to a thread in which this has already been covered), I'd be interested to learn that info.

[Tom_Doak]

I had also heard something to the effect of the Red having holes in which Tom designed, and the Blue having some holes that Bill and Ben designed.  If Tom wouldn't mind commenting on that (or someone pointing to a thread in which this has already been covered), I'd be interested to learn that info.

HB [and Rob]:

Bill Coore and I worked together to come up with the 36-hole routing for Streamsong.  Bill had already done a couple of different 18-hole routings before I came along.  I tried first to fit 36 holes onto the site [and came close], but we decided some of the holes he had laid out were too good to change to cram things in, so we wound up with 30 holes, and then he found the last six [the first six holes of the Red] by taking in some new ground we hadn't considered before.

Based on that, it is natural for me to think of the individual holes as "Bill's" or "mine" because I know who had the idea first.  But, once the 36 holes were divided into two separate courses, we only worked on our own side with our own teams [except for a little bit of good-natured back and forth amongst our crews].  So the details of the holes are based on our own ideas, only the position of the hole might have come from the other guys.

Rob, Ben Crenshaw was involved with Streamsong the same way he's involved with all of Coore & Crenshaw's courses:  he let Bill [and in this case, me too] assemble a bunch of routing ideas, and then he came out to walk the routings and suggest ideas of his own.  We were going to leave it to Ben to decide which of the two routings would be theirs, but he said he was equally happy with both of them.  None of us wanted to choose, in fear that the other guy would think he got the short end of the stick somehow.  Once the decision was made, then Ben made his regular visits to collaborate on the design of the greens and the bunkers and the rest of the Red course.

[Rob Marshall]

Thanks Tom, great insight into how Streamsong was created. What is the foundation of the routing? Interesting green sites or just the overall topography of the site?

[Daniel Jones]

I tried first to fit 36 holes onto the site [and came close], but we decided some of the holes he had laid out were too good to change to cram things in, so we wound up with 30 holes, and then he found the last six [the first six holes of the Red] by taking in some new ground we hadn't considered before.

Tom..curious, was the 6th returning to the clubhouse on both courses intentional or just happenstance?

[Tom_Doak]

I tried first to fit 36 holes onto the site [and came close], but we decided some of the holes he had laid out were too good to change to cram things in, so we wound up with 30 holes, and then he found the last six [the first six holes of the Red] by taking in some new ground we hadn't considered before.

Tom..curious, was the 6th returning to the clubhouse on both courses intentional or just happenstance?

Happenstance.  From the above, you see that the first six holes on the Red were added on late in the process.  Otherwise, there was always room for three good holes that came back toward the clubhouse [6 Blue, 18 Blue, 18 Red] but we couldn't work it out so that the third one was the 9th for either course, so we just took it how it came.

[Patrick_Mucci]

If Streamsong is smart, and I believe that they are, they'll hire an architect other than C&C and TD to design their next course.

Imagine being able to offer four (4) very distinct golf courses.
A fabulous, Doak, a fabulous C&C, a fabulous Gil Hanse, A fabulous Fazio or Fabulous Dye course ?

It would enhance the attractiveness tremendously.

Some golfers aren't keen on Doak or C&C courses.
Some love Nicklaus courses, some love Fazio courses, so why not offer a greater selection for the golfing enthusiast whose tastes vary ?

Patrick:

I'm sure they will do as you suggest and hire someone else.  However, I'm not sure it's that smart.  
Do you think Old Macdonald and Pacific Dunes are too much alike?

Tom,

NO, but I think you have to lend some weight to the element of "name recognition" and "variety"

There are golfers who love Nicklaus courses.  I'm not one of them.
Others love Fazio designs and others love Dye designs, just to name a few.

While I have no doubt that you could build another terrific golf course on that site, from a marketing perspective, there's an inate appeal that comes with variety.

One of my major criticisms of Desert Mountain and it's six (6) Jack Nicklaus courses, is, if you've played one, have you essentially played them all ?
I know, "Outlaw" is different, but, it's "off property" and my favorite.

I just saw a brand-new Nicklaus course in Nassau, The Bahamas last week -- hasn't opened yet.  You might have mistaken it for my work, away from the water holes, anyway.  Gil Hanse's work isn't exactly radically different from mine or Bill Coore's, either.  Sure, you could tell them to design something radically different than the first two courses, and they are entirely capable of doing it.  But so could Bill Coore, and so could I.

Agree, and that was never more apparent to me after what I saw Fazio do at Pine Valley, I was amazed, so yes, I think you and C&C could design a different to radically different course, but, it would still be a Tom Doak or C&C course, and I think there's a segment of the broad spectrum of golfers who love the works of other "name" designers.

My perspective wasn't from an architectural point of view as much as being from a marketing point of view and appealing to a wider band within that spectrum.

Unfortunately, many people's idea of "diversity" in golf architecture is just about having different names to market. 

But, that is a distinct reality.

How many developers retained Jack Nicklaus because of his name recognition ?
How many golfers bought a home in a development with a Jack Nicklaus golf course, because of name recognition ?

But, I am happy you continue to be such a big booster of Streamsong.  I'm going back for their Invitational in January. 

I think it's fabulous and I'll be back twice more this winter.