Riverdale Dunes question for Tom Doak

[billb]

Those of us who live in the Denver area are very fortunate to have a golf course that plays very much like a links.... in spite of the fact that we are a long way from an ocean. It is called Riverdale Dunes, it was built by Pete Dye in the mid 80s, and Tom Doak was part of the team that built the golf course.
Tom, I understand that this was one of your first projects after returning from your study of the courses of the British Isles. My question is this: are there any particular holes or features of specific holes from the classic links courses that were incorporated into Riverdale Dunes?

[Doug Wright]

Bill,

I'm not Tom and I assume he'll respond sometime but before he does Tom's mentioned on here before that he did part of the course and Perry Dye did part of the course. Can you identify who did what? It's an interesting and eye-opening exercise...

All The Best,

[A_Clay_Man]

I played RD this year and found it to be a marvelous facility. Save for some long routes to the next tee the golf was top notch for few denaro.

The comparison BB makes to a links course never crossed my mind. Perhaps the openness of the golf is so rare because so many people think treelined actually is golf.

[Tom_Doak]

Bill:  Two of my employees live in Denver -- both of them worked on Riverdale Dunes when we built it, and both still enjoy going there.  They say it's especially linksy in winter when the ground is semi-frozen!

When it was under construction, Perry gave me the keys to the equipment and told me I could make almost any changes I wanted to as long as I stayed ahead of the irrigation crew.  They were just starting down hole #1, so the first 3-4 holes I only did my work around the greens; but then they were way behind schedule and I started getting more creative.

It's been a long time, but off the top of my head:

On the fifth green, Perry told me to do something really wild, so I did.
The shelf on #7 green is built for a run-up shot, inspired by #12 at St. Andrews among others.
#8 and #12 are the only true Pete Dye greens, which he was there to direct in the field.
#9 green is based on the Dell at Lahinch, though of course it is a short par-5 and not the same angle into the dell.  What is now the green was originally a waste bunker and the mound to the right was the green (though not so high); I switched the two.
#10 green is based on #10 at Riviera.
#13 is loosely based on #13 at Royal Troon, but for a draw instead of a fade.
#16 fairway is based on Royal Birkdale and other links; originally the fairway was down the right side where the mounds are, and today's fairway was going to be a long waste bunker.

[billb]

Tom:
Thanks for the quick and informative response!

Some of my thoughts and some additional questions, after playing Dunes many times over the last 14 years:

>On the fifth green, Perry told me to do something really wild, >so I did.
Yes, Tom, you did.    
What I like about that green is its flexibility. Put the pin in the front and it is a birdie pin, especially when the greens are quick and the bowl shape helps funnel the ball close. Put the pin in the back middle right and it is of average difficulty. Put the pin in the back right or that nasty little shelf in the middle left and I 3 putt every stinking time.

>The shelf on #7 green is built for a run-up shot, inspired by >#12 at St. Andrews among others.
Another great green complex, especially with the water left and the big mounds right. I like the way back left pin, especially in a money match with someone who doesnt know the course very well.  

>8 and #12 are the only true Pete Dye greens, which he was >here to direct in the field.
Both very strong and once again, flexible par 3s. Did Alice Dye have any say in the design of these (or any other holes on the course?)

>#9 green is based on the Dell at Lahinch, though of course it >is a short par-5 and not the same angle into the dell.  What >is now the green was originally a waste bunker and the >mound to the right was the green (though not so high); I >switched the two.
Very interesting. One of my favorite holes, maybe that is because I have come very close to making eagle several times.   Did you know that when the Nike Tour visited the Dunes (The Colorado Open was held there two consecutive years in the late 90s), the nines were reversed and this hole was played as a par 4? BTW, I talked to a couple of the players and they loved the course...said it was one of the top 2 or 3 they played all year. Unfortunately the tournament lost money and has ceased to exsist.  

Are you responsible for #14? I still have not figured out the mounding over the last 100 yards of that fairway. Being a very short par 4, I am usually 60-80 yards out and want to play some kind of bump and run but there does not seem to be anyplace to land the ball  

I heard that the land that The Dunes was built on was farm land and pretty much flat and that all the "dunes" were constructed, including all of the big "sandhills" that separate many of the holes. Is this true?

Yes, it plays very hard and fast in the winter. They do an excellent job maintaining the golf course, and it plays hard and fast almost all of the time, even before the last 4 summers of drought in Colorado.

BB

[A_Clay_Man]

When I was there the start was on ten. When I made the turn to the front I could really sense the injustice that was done to me. Starting in the middle of the story felt odd.

I don't feel those two sides are as reversable as it seems they do.

Who Would dare to agree?

[Tom_Doak]

Bill -

Before Riverdale Dunes was a golf course, it was a flood-irrigated onion field -- basically dead flat with a low berm around it.  Perry did a rough layout, and David Postlethwait (one of Pete's long-time guys) did the rough earthwork.  Everything David did was like the first hole:  a built-up fairway with gutters on each side to get the water away, and sometimes some mounds around the green.

So, I didn't start with the blank canvas -- I started with every hole kind of like #1.  I moved a lot of the tees, so people would play diagonally over the gutters instead of straight down the bowling alley; and then I started moving greens and adding bunkers and more mounds.

Alice Dye came up for a couple of days in mid-construction, when she was playing at the Broadmoor Amateur.  The only specific input I remember from her was on the forward tee for the eighth hole.  I had put it left, behind #7 green, so the women would have to play directly over the water about 75 yards.  Alice made us build another tee to the right so the weakest players could skirt the edge of the hazard.  I'm sure she was right, but at the time I couldn't believe we had to avoid a forced carry so short I could throw a golf ball across!

I am responsible for #14 -- in fact, I would take a share of the credit for every hole except #1, 2, and 15.  Fourteen was designed to be an awkward hole, and to tempt long hitters into going for the green and possibly hooking it o.b.  However, I didn't really think many people would be hitting a run-up shot there, and did not pay special attention to that approach -- honestly, once you get past the bunkers in the fairway, I can't remember what's there.  The green isn't one of my best either.

I do love #5 green, also.  I had shaped a simpler green there before Perry came through and told me to jazz it up, and I was a bit upset about it, so I built something extra-wild just to show him.  Ironically, that green turned out to be more like the "Doak" style than anything else at Riverdale Dunes, but I never would have thought so at the time I built it.

[billb]

Tom:
Well, now I will have to change my story about the building of The Dunes. I often play there as a single and meet other golfers and like to tell them how this land used to be an onion field, and then Pete Dye came along, and hired this aspiring architect who just came back from his study of the links of the UK. This guy Doak hopped on a dozer and built all the mounds and hills to make it look like Scotland. Now I will have to give the credit for the initial earthwork to someone else.
 
The hills and mounds that separate the holes are what gives the course so much of its links character. They are covered with long wispy grasses and when the wind blows, the feeling is reminiscent of Cruden Bay or North Berwick or the seaside part of Lahinch. Throw in few Royal County Down style untrimmed bunkers and some very interesting green complexes and lots of fairway undulations and one gets a very good taste of links golf.

[Brad Swanson]

  I agree with most of the comments here about Riverdale Dunes regarding the design and layout, but I completely disagree with one.  This course (which I typically play once a week or 2 in the summer) is not maintained what I would call firm.  On the contrary, I see this course as playing far too soft.  Ask Adam Clayman and he'll agree, and maybe Slag as well.  They played Wild Horse and Riverdale Dunes within the same week last fall (as did I) and I think they would agree that Wild Horse has what those of us around here consider firm conditions compared to Riverdale.  Case in point:  I often (around half of the time) drive the 14th at Riverdale, and many of those times I fly the ball on the green or fringe and only have to take a few steps from fixing my mark to marking my ball.  If I tried this at Wild Horse I can guarantee you the ball would not be holding the green.  
   Don't get me wrong, I love the place and consider it my favorite metro Denver area public course, but I'd like it even more if they would firm it up a bit.  (Bang for buck it can't be beat in Colorado IMHO)  Somehow, even with the drought last summer, they were always able to put a significant amount of water on the course whenever I played.  The only other drawback are the mosquitos on the north side of the course (by #3).  That's prime West Nile Virus territory.    


Brad Swanson

[billb]

Brad:
As I did not play The Dunes much last summer or fall, I am sure your views of the recent playing conditions are correct.
Might the drought have something to do with it? Natural vs. artifical irrigation?
I have not even heard of Wild Horse. Where is it and is it reasonably priced?
BIll

[Matt_Ward]

Bill B:

Wild Horse is a MEGA MUST PLAY!

The course is located in Gothenburg, NE -- about 4 1/2 miles from Denver. The fees are also VERY, VERY REASONABLE. If you enjoyed Riverdale Dunes (which I have played and agree is definite must public play in the greater Denver area) then you will absolutely love Wild Horse. The turf is primed for fast and firm conditions and the wind -- I should say -- THE WIND -- always keep you on your toes.

Enjoy ...

[A_Clay_Man]

Of course Matt Ward meant 4 1/2 hours not miles. But it can be done quicker. I played RD the day before I played WH for the first time in early October. The conditions were lush but not so much that it was soggy. No comparison to F&F at WH. I did enjoy seeing bunkers that a ball was meant to roll into somewhere around the 11th or 12th. (as I said Iplayed it backwards so the numbers of the holes is a blurr)

 The clientel appeared to be a nice mix of the usual suspects with male retirees leading the pack.

[Doug Wright]

Good informative thread--it's great when we can get "behind the scenes" to see how a course like Riverdale Dunes came together. Hopefully we'll have something similar (with a lot more detail, of course) for Pacific Dunes...

I too like Riverdale Dunes, and agree with some but not all the comments. I do not go out there saying "here's something akin to playing in Scotland or Ireland." Not a lot of railroad ties abutting lakes in those countries. Whenever I've played there it's been softer than a true links. Brad's correct--go to WIld Horse for a more analogous experience.

There are a number of excellent holes there, and the fact that several of us have different favourites indicates the strength of the course. Mine are 3, 5 (!!), 6(!!), 9, 10, 12, 13, 14. I love holes like 6, where tee shot placement determines whether you have a clear view to the green or are behind a dune and blind.  I think there are some not so good holes out there, eg 15 and especially 18, a real downer of a finisher IMO. The greens  are well done, esp. 3, 5 as mentioned is terrific, 7,8,9, 12 and 16.

We're lucky to have a number of excellent public courses in the Denver area, and Riverdale Dunes is with them but not head and shoulders above them.

All The Best,

[Tom_Doak]

No question that Wild Horse and Sand Hills are MUCH firmer and faster than Riverdale Dunes.  The former two are fescue on perfect sand; Riverdale is bentgrass on gravel.  They needed to build up a thatch layer at Riverdale the first couple of years, but now there's too much and it cushions the bounce.

Jim Urbina, who's very partial to Riverdale because he shaped all the greens I didn't, says that every year there is some new course in Denver which gets rated above Riverdale; but every year Riverdale is #2 or #3, and the courses which were above it five years ago never stay there.  I'd never nominate it as one of the great courses in America, like I would for Wild Horse; but it's great fun golf.

[RJ_Daley]

A question for Tom if he is still looking in...

Tom, how would you characterize the Dye organization during that period in terms of overall craeativity and collaboration.  What I mean is that it seems that organizations of various talented people seem to have periods of highs and lows in their work product and the amount and quality that they put out.  I heard the Dyes speaking at a GCSAA convention and both Perry and Pete and Alice seemed to comment fondly about their recollections of the atmosphere of the crew and mentioned Riverdale a couple of times.  Bruce also mentioned that time as his introduction to the world of GC construction.  With you there in the capacity you were in, and Perry engaged in the project, would you say that time period and what they produced early to mid 80s until mid 90s was the Dye organization's best?

[Tom_Doak]

RJ:  If you asked the guys who worked for Perry Dye, most of them would put their finger on Riverdale Dunes as the most fun they ever had in construction.  We were all so young (I was 23-24 years old) and really most of us were getting to build something cool for the first time in our lives.  John Harbottle and Neal and Eric Iverson and Jim Urbina and John Reidinger and Jim Felten and Tim Furness were all there, plus a bunch of 18-year-old kids to help.

But without question the "Dye organization's best" were the projects where Pete and Alice lived themselves for the construction job.  My first job was Long Cove which was one of those jobs:  Pete and Alice on-site every day, P.B. doing a lot of the shaping, Bobby Weed as the golf course superintendent, Scott Pool and Ron Farris as turf interns running equipment, and myself and David Savic on the labor crew (plus about ten other guys).  That's eight people who have designed a golf course on their own, which might be a record.

Don't confuse the two:  any job Pete Dye spent a lot of time around is vastly superior to anything else with the Dye name.  Other than P.B., none of us really got to do any of the creative side of the job at Long Cove -- we all might have got to build a green or two on our own, and then refine it with Pete.  But we all loved what we were doing, so we just smiled and took care of the small details.

Unquestionably, the best jobs I've been around are the ones where everyone on the crew was having fun.  We've never had a better experience than Pacific Dunes, and it shows in the end product.

[RJ_Daley]

I guess for my interests that the intruguing aspect of participating in these discussions and getting a chance to meet various architects and design-construction people is that sense of energy and creativity that seems to go with these tales of the crew while working their butts off at such projects.  It is obviously in those crew settings under the tuteledge of great people who care about the profession where the future talents all seem to be nurtured and torches passed on.  One gets the sense that there is no hesitation by these GCA legends like the Dyes, or C&C and now Tom and the Renaissance group to mentor and nurture those who will go out and both compete and push the envelope further in great works and ideas.  

I still think a movie and/or another book similar to "Driving the Green" which chronicals the energy of such a work team would be a great subject to explore.