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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Maryvale GC (W.F. Bell) Phoenix, AZ- Master Plan now up
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2015, 05:00:32 PM »
PART TWO

THE NEW TEES

Tees on any golf course should be positioned to serve the needs of all players including the low handicap, the average player as well as beginners or junior players. All of these teeing grounds are important, however, since the majority of the players will play from the middle tees it is our intent to build the middle tees larger so they can withstand the higher play demands. The back tee is important, even though only five to ten percent of the players will play from these tees, as the courses’ reputation will be judged from this location. However, the back tee and the forward tee will be the smallest in size because they receive less play.
All tees will be slightly elevated to provide a view of the landing area down range. In no instance will the forward tees block the view of the landing area from the tees behind; this is simply bad design and will not occur on the new course. The shape of the new tees will be constructed in a classic natural random form.
“This placing of the tee shot, if not overdone, is one of the best features of modern golf course construction work.

In making the different teeing grounds it will be possible to gain a little extra variety by playing the tee shot at different angles to the course; thus a teeing ground made at some thirty yards or so to the right or left of the one in front will very likely create additional interest in the round, and be better than one made exactly behind it.”   

~ Harry S. Colt

The new tees will be shaped out of native material with a five inch layer of clean sand (tee top) being installed over a perforated tile line dug into the tee edge. The tee top and subgrade will slope approximately 1% as instructed by the golf course designer to ensure proper drainage. This will provide a consistent playing surface and allow excess water to exit the tee top.

THE NEW GREENS

As previously discussed, the putting surfaces are the most important element on the golf course and are THE element most players will value when judging the worth of the golf holes. There are no great golf courses that have poorly designed greens complexes. It is for this reason I have chosen to utilize classic design forms that will challenge every type of player. But with modern green speeds it is important that we build putting surfaces that are not only interesting but have multiple hole locations with a slope at no more than 2.8 % to maximize the playable areas of the greens. Construction of the new greens must include engineered sand materials that can provide the best year round playing conditions. Having the high quality infrastructure in the new greens cannot be overstated.
The motif of the new greens should be similar to greens built during the ‘Golden-Age’ of golf course architecture. These types of greens have interesting shapes and when the proper slopes are constructed, the new greens will provide a plethora of interesting corner hole locations.  

 THE NEW BUNKERS


The process of placing bunkers is tantamount to designing a quality golf course. Each hole must be carefully studied and bunkers placed in thought provoking locations to create an interesting playing strategy.  From our study of the existing Maryvale Golf Course we know that the bunkers are in very poor condition, many of which could be repositioned or eliminated to provide increased enjoyment of the holes for all level of players. The details for the new locations are found on the individual hole drawings which follows this narrative.

“Most golfers have an entirely erroneous view of the real object of hazards. The majority of them simply look upon hazards as a means of punishing a bad shot, when their real object is to make the game more interesting.

A hazard placed in the exact position where a player would naturally go is frequently the most interesting situation, as then a special effort is needed to get over or avoid it.”

 The motif proposed for the new bunkers has classic sand faces with bold forms. The new bunkers will have interesting forms and include some noses that will protrude into the bunkers randomly. These bunkers were skillfully utilized by AW Tillinghast, George C. Thomas and golden-age architects. Their courses include Winged Foot, Baltusrol, San Francisco Golf Club, Riviera and Los Angles Country Club. It is important to note that the new bunkers will have a state-of-the-art liners and beautiful white sand. See attached sketch for hole #13 for Maryvale.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0eyy52ih9s867qx/mvl%20narrative.docx?dl=0
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 11:04:32 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Maryvale GC (W.F. Bell) Phoenix, AZ- Master Plan now up
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2015, 11:24:07 PM »
Here are the drawings for selected holes:

LINE OF PLAY
Maryvale Golf Club
Phoenix, Arizona

HOLE #1 Par 5
548 - 499 - 464 - 434 - 400 yds


1. Rebuild tees to lengthen hole and create better infrastructure.
2. Add fairway bunkers in the tee shot landing area to
improve the startegy and definition.
3. Build interesting bunkering to add startegy to the
second shot landing zone.
4. Move the green back to lengthen hole. Elevate the new
green and add front bunker to create strategy.

A. Build new green approximately three feet above existing
grade with interesting contours. The right edge falls
away to low mow area.
B. Develop large deep intimidating front bunker to guard
the entrance to the putting surface.
C. Develop roll-off to low mow area from right edge into
the green.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 11:26:04 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Maryvale GC (W.F. Bell) Phoenix, AZ- Master Plan , Drawings now up
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2015, 04:16:38 PM »
For all those who've been waiting with baited breath, I've called in a "professional" to help get the Hole Drawings and construction pics posted.  This task was beyond my scope of computer knowledge.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Joe Bausch

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Re: Maryvale GC (W.F. Bell) Phoenix, AZ- Master Plan , Drawings now up
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2015, 08:53:26 AM »
Hole diagrams (all are clickable to a larger size):

#1.



#2.



#3.



#4.



#5.



#6.



#7.



#8.



#9.



#10.



#11.



#12.



#13.



#14.



#15.



#16.



#17.



#18.



Range and short game area.

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

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Re: Maryvale GC (W.F. Bell) Phoenix, AZ- Master Plan , Drawings now up
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2015, 09:01:37 AM »
Construction photos (all clickable to a larger size):

#1:



#3:



#5:



#8:



#12:



#14:



#16:

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Matthew Petersen

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Fabulous, thanks so much for sharing!

Right now you have repeated #6 diagram for hole #8. Any way to add #8 in there?

Joe Bausch

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Fabulous, thanks so much for sharing!

Right now you have repeated #6 diagram for hole #8. Any way to add #8 in there?

I'll fix that in the morning.   ;)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Steve_ Shaffer

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Here's a review of the "before." The "new" will be much more interesting:

http://azgolf.com/golf-course-reviews/phoenix-golf-course-reviews/maryvale-golf-course-review/
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

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Here is the compact routing of the "old" that will be used for the "new"

« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 12:51:56 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

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Here's an aerial of the "old" course. The "new" course will have less trees:

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Lyman Gallup

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I have played the old course several times and my initial impression is that it will be almost magical if Fought can find 7200y on that site.  Maybe he can but I am going to be a bit surprised if it happens.  I didn't add the yardages on the diagrams Steve posted so maybe 7200 is the right number.  I think the yardages on the par 5's have been extended considerably and 10 has been made into a par 4 when it has usually played as a short par 5.  Also I must confess I never stood on any of the tees and looked behind the tee to see what space might be available to make the course longer.  I always thought the driving range had inadequate space.  Moving the tee back to where the putting green was will help some but I notice he plans to extend the netting around the range--probably a good idea but it's just not a feature I admire.

Steve_ Shaffer

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All,

It is my understanding that the 7200y tees will have removable mats and are only available for the GCU golf team. Hopefully, this will keep off public golfers who "want to play the whole course" regardless of handicap level.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Matthew Petersen

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GolfNow no longer has a listing for Maryville, but they do have a listing for "Grand Canyon University GC." Apparently that will be the new name when it reopens.


I suppose that's their right given all the money they put into it, but kind of a shame.

Steve_ Shaffer

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I visited Maryvale  a few days ago along with my home club's Director of Golf, Superintendent, Chair of Golf Committee, GM(who is a PGA pro) and a member of our HOA. We are contemplating some work on one of our courses, a Keith Foster solo design about 20 years old, and John Fought  gave us a tour of the course which will be opening soon, probably in November, and provided us with his insight on the plans, construction, bunkers, grass, etc. It was quite informative and impressive. This will be a great walking PUBLIC course ( no continuous cart paths) and an interesting test of golf for golfers of all abilities, particularly if you can avoid the Tillinghast inspired bunkers.


Unlike Papago, now managed by ASU, it looks like there will be a name change for Maryvale but I think locals will still call it Maryvale.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 12:13:43 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jason Topp

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Fought is also doing work at Windsong right now with the same construction company.  Some of the bunkers he is adding appear similar to those on 3, 6, 10 and 18 on this plan.  (so far on 1 and 8 at Windsong).  They are somewhere around 50- 80 yards short of the green on par fours that tend to be on the long side. 
Those bunkers confuse me.  For the good player they are irrelevant because they do not come into play for an iron shot approach.  For the shorter player they make the hole significantly more difficult.  It is much more difficult to play "grandpa golf" and hit your second shot short of the green but at a favorable angle for a pitch.  Fought's stated philosophy above is to have a course enjoyable for all levels of player but these bunkers seem to have the opposite effect. 
There are only a couple of such bunkers in play so far at my club so I do not yet have enough experience to figure out whether my theoretical objections transfer into real life. 
 

Steve_ Shaffer

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Yes, the course has been  renamed pursuant to the agreement.

Here are some early construction videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecDqC5NF_0U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W19va3AUGvc

Jason,
Yes, the course  seems to present some difficulty for "average recreational golfers" who inadvertently or frequently wind up in bunkers;however, GCU is thinking big here. I'll let you know how difficult it is when I play there. ;D
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 07:21:15 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Ryan Farrow

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Steve, looks like exciting stuff. I worked very briefly for John while I was going to ASU. Very underrated architect who always delivers on some fun golf.  Do you have any idea what the rates will be?

Steve_ Shaffer

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Ryan,


Rates haven't been posted yet but perhaps they'll probably be similar to Papago since the city will set the rates pursuant to the agreement with GCU:


http://www.papagogolfcourse.net/18-hole-rates.html
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

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Tentative grand opening is December 1.  Drove by today and the course looks great.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Bill Buthorn

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Re: Maryvale GC(W.F. Bell/Fought)Phoenix, AZ- Grand Opening soon!
« Reply #44 on: November 04, 2015, 09:17:08 PM »
I also drove by today, I have been interested in this project and could not wait to see it.  From the outside, it looks very UN muni like.  Fought's bunkers are deep, even in the fairways.  The whole course has a rolling look to it, and the greens that I could see are raised, well bunkered, and have the interesting slopes he called for in the proposal.  Looks like a really fun track for all levels.  Cannot wait to play.  By the way, I am in the West Valley for a couple of weeks.  PM if you are interested in a round somewhere.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Maryvale GC(W.F. Bell/Fought)Phoenix, AZ- Grand Opening soon!
« Reply #45 on: November 14, 2015, 11:28:41 PM »
I was informed by John Fought that  course opening delayed until January as GCU wants to wait for the club house construction to be completed.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maryvale GC(W.F. Bell/Fought)Phoenix, AZ- Grand Opening soon!
« Reply #46 on: November 30, 2015, 08:44:53 PM »
Course opens January 1, 2016


New website inclucing rates:


http://www.gcugolf.com/
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Maryvale GC(W.F. Bell/Fought)Phoenix, AZ- Grand Opening 1/1/16
« Reply #47 on: December 12, 2015, 11:03:16 AM »
Big article in today's paper about the new course (7M for the course&3M for the clubhouse all paid for by GCU) and the city's golf debt payoff and comments from the new city Director of Golf:


http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2015/12/11/west-phoenix-golf-course-opens-grand-canyon-university/76321664/
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jeff Shelman

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Re: Maryvale GC(W.F. Bell/Fought)Phoenix, AZ- Grand Opening 1/1/16
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2015, 08:42:56 PM »
Anybody interested in playing here on Friday 1/1. There are a bunch of times in the 11:30 range.

I'll be in town from Minneapolis and would be interested in playing.

Thanks,
Jeff

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Maryvale GC(W.F. Bell/Fought)Phoenix, AZ- Grand Opening 1/1/16
« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2015, 04:32:23 PM »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”