Will there ever be a Greens Firmness Race?

[BCowan]

Will clubs/courses ever start competing to have the firmest greens?  Of course design should be taken into account, but it seldom is with green contours in regards to speed.  I'm thinking no, but we can dream can't we?  TruFirm and the Clegg Soil Impact
Tester as an example.  

[BHoover]

If there were such a race, I have a feeling that some on this site would ridicuke it as a pointless measuring contest, as is the case with green spee.

[mike_beene]

Come spend a summer in
Dallas. Green speeds are not the issue.Green firmness is what people talk about .You better believe we compare them with other clubs and whine when ours are softer.It is impossible to chip here in August. I have changed my mind and think Champion Bermuda will be the answer.Seems cheaper than sub air which we don't have but some others do and helps.

[Terry Poley]

Donald Ross used the term "Tape Measure Men" .. It's as accurate today as it was 100 years ago.  

[BCowan]

Come spend a summer in
Dallas. Green speeds are not the issue.Green firmness is what people talk about .You better believe we compare them with other clubs and whine when ours are softer.It is impossible to chip here in August. I have changed my mind and think Champion Bermuda will be the answer.Seems cheaper than sub air which we don't have but some others do and helps.

That is awesome, I do need to get to Texas...  I love chipping on Champion Bermuda.  Funny thing I played golf with a guy who complained that his ball never made a ball mark on the Champion bermuda greens.  Hybrid Bermuda greens seem idiot proof in regards to keeping greens firm, but I haven't enough experience on them.

[Jason Topp]

I think it is happening in my area as well.  Greens seem much firmer than they were ten years ago.

[mike_beene]

Our bent is only now getting firm from the summer. I bet we eventually go to the Bermuda, but we were just closed for a year and nobody will want to close again for a while.Also, they will have to take the slope out of some greens or it just won't work

[Jon Wiggett]

Our bent is only now getting firm from the summer.

Sorry for the dumb question but why is it so soft through the summer?

Jon

[Adam Lawrence]

Jon - if Mike is in Dallas, then bent greens will typically be soft in summer because the weather is too warm for the grass to thrive and the greenkeeper has to water like hell to keep the grass alive. This is why so many courses in transition zones have switched to ultradwarf bermuda strains; these can cause problems in the winter if it gets too cold and you get winter kill. There's no perfect solution in such climates.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon - if Mike is in Dallas, then bent greens will typically be soft in summer because the weather is too warm for the grass to thrive and the greenkeeper has to water like hell to keep the grass alive. This is why so many courses in transition zones have switched to ultradwarf bermuda strains; these can cause problems in the winter if it gets too cold and you get winter kill. There's no perfect solution in such climates.

Adam,

thanks for the answer. I guess this shows my lack of knowledge for this sort of climate as I cannot understand how a climate that is so hot also leads to soft bent grass greens. Surely if you keep the upper rootzone area soggy you would be exacerbating the problem by over heating the grass and forcing it to remain shallow rooted no?

Like I say out of my knowledge and experience area once it gets above 40Cish (110F)

Jon

[mike_beene]

Adam is correct.Water and fans are necessary for August survival.The greens should be firm by now but they are just getting there.We lose almost 3 months of firm greens a year.They putt OK but the chipping is terrible because they are too soft.Either we will end up with sub air or Bermuda,and I now think Bermuda is better(and I like the champion more than tiff but that is based on limited experience).I have been told it putts fine in the winter. This is a tough transition zone and bent is and always has been a battle.

[JMEvensky]

Adam is correct.Water and fans are necessary for August survival.The greens should be firm by now but they are just getting there.We lose almost 3 months of firm greens a year.They putt OK but the chipping is terrible because they are too soft.Either we will end up with sub air or Bermuda,and I now think Bermuda is better(and I like the champion more than tiff but that is based on limited experience).I have been told it putts fine in the winter. This is a tough transition zone and bent is and always has been a battle.

Same battle in Memphis. Now every club but one is Champion or Mini Verde. They're OK in the winter.

[Aaron McMaster]

Will clubs/courses ever start competing to have the firmest greens?  Of course design should be taken into account, but it seldom is with green contours in regards to speed.  I'm thinking no, but we can dream can't we?  TruFirm and the Clegg Soil Impact
Tester as an example.  

Dream!!.....Whats the point of comparing firmness and how would it benefit the future of the game??  After reading this thread I think I've come to the conclusion that too many people who play golf are just a bunch of awful pansies!  I can't chip on soft greens, the speed of greens were different from last week, the bunker sand is too soft, this holes too hard, I didn't get enough roll yada yada yada.  Maybe your just not very good!  Just go enjoy your time outside, typcially playing on a visably pleasing, serene piece of ground and then you can go home and kick your dog.  JC, you play a game outdoors that conditions can vary by the hour! 

Unless you wish to move to the five odd places on earth to offer perfect weather, soil and turf conditions then learn to play better shots or take up bowling.

[BCowan]

Will clubs/courses ever start competing to have the firmest greens?  Of course design should be taken into account, but it seldom is with green contours in regards to speed.  I'm thinking no, but we can dream can't we?  TruFirm and the Clegg Soil Impact
Tester as an example.  

Dream!!.....Whats the point of comparing firmness and how would it benefit the future of the game?? It would get the average private club member to start wanting firmer greens due to making a competition out of it.   
After reading this thread I think I've come to the conclusion that too many people who play golf are just a bunch of awful pansies! 
The only pansie is you. 
 I can't chip on soft greens, the speed of greens were different from last week, the bunker sand is too soft, this holes too hard, I didn't get enough roll yada yada yada. This isn't Seinfield and my bunker game is great.
Maybe your just not very good! What does how good have anything to do with firmness?
Just go enjoy your time outside, typcially playing on a visably pleasing, serene piece of ground and then you can go home and kick your dog.  They have parks for that.
JC, you play a game outdoors that conditions can vary by the hour! 
Unless you wish to move to the five odd places on earth to offer perfect weather, soil and turf conditions then learn to play better shots or take up bowling.
Nope, real simple just irrigate when soil temp reaches a certain point.  That way we don't need $1 million dollar maint. budgets for coddled keepers riding around in their carryall's, JC

[Aaron McMaster]

Will clubs/courses ever start competing to have the firmest greens?  Of course design should be taken into account, but it seldom is with green contours in regards to speed.  I'm thinking no, but we can dream can't we?  TruFirm and the Clegg Soil Impact
Tester as an example.  

Dream!!.....Whats the point of comparing firmness and how would it benefit the future of the game?? It would get the average private club member to start wanting firmer greens due to making a competition out of it.   
After reading this thread I think I've come to the conclusion that too many people who play golf are just a bunch of awful pansies! 
The only pansie is you. 
 I can't chip on soft greens, the speed of greens were different from last week, the bunker sand is too soft, this holes too hard, I didn't get enough roll yada yada yada. This isn't Seinfield and my bunker game is great.
Maybe your just not very good! What does how good have anything to do with firmness?
Just go enjoy your time outside, typcially playing on a visably pleasing, serene piece of ground and then you can go home and kick your dog.  They have parks for that.
JC, you play a game outdoors that conditions can vary by the hour! 
Unless you wish to move to the five odd places on earth to offer perfect weather, soil and turf conditions then learn to play better shots or take up bowling.
Nope, real simple just irrigate when soil temp reaches a certain point.  That way we don't need $1 million dollar maint. budgets for coddled keepers riding around in their carryall's, JC

You need to come up with better crap than this, I'm sure your capable.  Read the other post, people saying that can't chip on soft greens, give me a break.  I prefer firm greens but as a player I know that soft greens are way easier to play on....watch a tour event soft greens mean low scores, your not very good if you can't score on soft conditions.....again I prefer firm but soft is easier.

Your soil temp irrigation argument is ridiculous.  I haven't turned a sprinkler on my course since early september to water in sand from aerating and your still not gonna get firm here right now.

[Jeff Bergeron]

Spoken like a superintendent tired of listening to members bitch. Firm and Fast............TURF!

[jeffwarne]

Our bent is only now getting firm from the summer. I bet we eventually go to the Bermuda, but we were just closed for a year and nobody will want to close again for a while.Also, they will have to take the slope out of some greens or it just won't work

Mike,
presumably in the cooler season your bent gets relatively fast , correct?
If they went to bermuda, couldn't they simply maintain it at an appropriate speed to work with the current slopes?
I mean just because it can be quite fast, doesn't mean it has to-correct?

[mike_beene]

It gets very fast November to June.You can't keep it on some greens if above the hole in wrong place. The first in town private club to convert in .Dallas is Royal Oaks and they just did it.If it goes well I bet everyone will convert in next 10 years.People are used to fast and firm greens and keeping them slower won't work.I must confess I want them fast also.We are an old course(1912) but the greens have been softened several times as speeds increased.The 18th was just done in the last redo.Bill Coore has been working in the course for 25 years and nothing gets changed unless he says so amd does it. That makes me feel better.Now only the routing is old.All Bunkers and many greens changed.It is not like we were National Golf Links and needed preserving for historical purposes.Long answer to say softening just one green is OK and necessary.The green is #11 for those that know the course.

[mike_beene]

Aaron,I am OK in the short game area but I hate mushy greens.Tell you what,to prove I am not a pansie, I challenge you to a 9 ball chip off,we each put up $100,000 winner take all. You pick the place but remember I can't chip on soft greens. Let me know .

[Aaron McMaster]

Aaron,I am OK in the short game area but I hate mushy greens.Tell you what,to prove I am not a pansie, I challenge you to a 9 ball chip off,we each put up $100,000 winner take all. You pick the place but remember I can't chip on soft greens. Let me know .

I guess you better hope it doesn't rain the day before or the morning off haha......Mike I'm not advocating soft greens and as I stated before I prefer firm conditions but I also recognize that mother nature always wins and therefore if your going to play and play well you better be able to adjust so to say it's not possible to chip on soft greens, I don't find that to be the case. 

As far as the bet, I'll see if my boy berg will sponsor me since a 100 grand is out of my realm.  However, if you'd like to play for something more reasonable like a $100....barring that your a tour pro or ex tour pro I'll play ya anytime.

[Bradley Anderson]

Aaron, This is a frequent concern that is shared on GCA from golfers about soft over-watered golf courses. And if you judged the state of American greenkeeping from the comments here you would think we all set our sprinklers to run every day of the week, rain or shine. But I can honestly say that in all my experience playing in around Detroit and Chicago that I have never played an over watered golf course.

I can say however that when golf clubs struggle with finances they tend to back off on aeration and topdressing (1 truck load of sand topdressing is running over $1,000 these days) and greens become thatchy at the surface. This sets the superintendent up for an impossible situation where he has no choice but the increase water to maintain the moisture in the thatch.

But I have said this before, I don't know of any superintendent who intentionally overwaters.

The difference between wilt and wet are not even that far apart in terms of percentage points.

[Craig Sweet]

Gee...maybe your greens are "soft" because of maintenance practices that are required to keep your greens alive in summer?  There's dozen's of bent varieties from old Penn Cross to the newer bents...and on older courses there might be 50% or more poa in the green...you have to manage the greens you have and can't be doing something simply because the course down the street is doing it.

We have a group of retired gentlemen at our club that play every morning...typically they are the first ones out.  The course is wet from dew and irrigation....if you asked these guys they would say the greens are "soft".

We have a group of gentlemen that play every day around 12:30-1pm....if you ask them they would tell you the greens were just perfect...in fact they got faster during the round.

It's all a matter of perspective. Why force your Super into doing something that isn't right for your course?

[Craig Sweet]

BCowen...so when your greens die  because you, and a handful of "experts" want firm greens, you're okay with that?

Here's what I would do...if you don't like the way your course is maintained, fire your super, or quit your club and find one that sets the course up exactly the way you want.

But until you understand that 1st and foremost the super will do what is right for the grass, and what the members want comes second, you will never be happy.

[BCowan]

BCowen...so when your greens die  because you, and a handful of "experts" want firm greens, you're okay with that?
When you can provide where I said that, please let me know?
Here's what I would do...if you don't like the way your course is maintained, fire your super, or quit your club and find one that sets the course up exactly the way you want.Actually I'm shooting for owning my own course. 

But until you understand that 1st and foremost the super will do what is right for the grass, and what the members want comes second, you will never be happy.The keeper is going to the will of the members.  The members want soft and fast.  I want firm and slow by today's standards. 

[BCowan]

Aaron, This is a frequent concern that is shared on GCA from golfers about soft over-watered golf courses. And if you judged the state of American greenkeeping from the comments here you would think we all set our sprinklers to run every day of the week, rain or shine. But I can honestly say that in all my experience playing in around Detroit and Chicago that I have never played an over watered golf course. The sprinklers do run all the time.  ''I can honestly say that in all my experience playing in Detroit that I have never played an over watered golf course.''  Please stop by in Metro D, I will be happy to show you.  Aaron does a great job on his sand based site.

I can say however that when golf clubs struggle with finances they tend to back off on aeration and topdressing (1 truck load of sand topdressing is running over $1,000 these days) and greens become thatchy at the surface. This sets the superintendent up for an impossible situation where he has no choice but the increase water to maintain the moisture in the thatch. Yes, and trees covering the greens from sunlight is an issue too.  I understand your situation.

But I have said this before, I don't know of any superintendent who intentionally overwaters.
You serve the members.
The difference between wilt and wet are not even that far apart in terms of percentage points.