[Bill Brightly]

There is the 17th at TOC at St. Andrews.

Then there is a damn fine hole at NGLA, which perhaps equals or surpasses what Charles Banks designed at Hackensack. Old Mac is very well done.

Any other great Road Holes out there? I'd like to round out the top ten.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Overall, could  this template be considered a weakness amon the Raynor and Banks holes?  Some of the "Road" holes are really good holes, like Fisher's Island, Yale,  Camargo,  Shoreacres,  Chicago, but they do not play anywhere similar to the original Road Hole.  The best one I have seen is at Piping Rock.  The most fun one's must be at North Shore and Huntington.

[Tom_Doak]

The best one I have seen is at Piping Rock.  The most fun one's must be at North Shore and Huntington.

Thanks!  I actually changed the one at Piping Rock pretty substantially when I did the work for Mr. Dye back in 1985.  [Up until then, the hole was 365 yards.]

I was going to mention the holes at North Shore and Huntington, too.  They're not the most traditional copies of the original, but they're certainly two cool greens.

[J_ Crisham]

#4 at St Louis CC is a dandy. The front bunker is dead and long is- well,  it's on the road! The course looked outstanding last week . Hats off to Tim Burch the supt. interesting mix of Zoysia tees and bent grass fairways . Why don't we hear more about SLCC ? Much better piece of property than CGC  IMO .

[Jon Cavalier]

Piping Rock's 8th hole gets my vote among those I've played. It's excellent in all respects:

[Jon Cavalier]

North Shore's road hole is also really well done. The wraparound bunkering down the right side of the huge green (not shown in this pic) is standout. A really underrated course in my opinion - some great templates there.

[Jon Cavalier]

The road hole at Mountain Lake also warrants some consideration:

[Jon Cavalier]

And of course, the 8th at Fishers Island should be in the conversation as well (apologies for the multiple posts - the page gets fussy when I try to post multiple pictures from my phone):

[Bill Brightly]

Overall, could  this template be considered a weakness amon the Raynor and Banks holes?  Some of the "Road" holes are really good holes, like Fisher's Island, Yale,  Camargo,  Shoreacres,  Chicago, but they do not play anywhere similar to the original Road Hole.  The best one I have seen is at Piping Rock.  The most fun one's must be at North Shore and Huntington.

Robert.

Let's be real. No versions of THE Road Hole will "play anywhere similar to the orginal Road Hole." OK? It is hard to expect an architect to build a hole that carries a railroad shed/hotel off the tee, and/or  has a real road within a few feet of the green complex... In the US the "road" was epresented by an unusully long bunke on the outside right of the green. So let's keep this discussion to golf holes that best capture the features of the original, but stay within the context of presenting realistic demands of the golfer, and the architect.

[Bill Brightly]

This is excellent! Mucci is about to get on a plane to Bandon Dunes so he will have no access to the internet for 6 to 8 hours!

What is uo with Nacdonald building a par 5 Raod Hole at NGLA when the original is a Par 4? (Was 17 at TOC always a par 4?)

CBM's Road Hole Bunker:

[Ronald Montesano]

17 at TOC was always a par five until the last 50 years.

[Bill Brightly]

17 at TOC was always a par five until the last 50 years.

Thanks, Ron. I guess I should have known that, a critical fact is analyzing Macdonald's version NGLA. But it begs a very interesting question: why did Banks build versions in the late 1920's that that were par 4's?

[Bill Brightly]

OK, here is Brightly being a complete homer showing you pictures of the first, and best, Road Hole that Charles Banks ever designed. Hackensack Golf Club Hole #18, Par 4, 390-410 par 4.



What I find fascinating is that Banks buit this hole as a dogleg left (as did CBM at NGLA), while the originsl at TOC is a dogleg right.

So for all of you MacRaynor critics, let this hole make the point that CBM and his disciples copied features, not holes. OK?

From the tee:

[Jon Cavalier]

OK, here is Brightly being a complete homer showing you pictures of the first, and best, Road Hole that Charles Banks ever designed. Hackensack Golf Club Hole #18, Par 4, 390-410 par 4

Homer or no, that is a fine looking golf hole. Thanks for the pics.

[Jon Cavalier]

The 12th at Country Club of Charleston is also a good one:



... as is the 7th at Yeamans Hall.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I am not criticizing the templates for failure to replicate the original.  My critic is that the only reallr great Road Hole template that I have played is the 8th at Piping Rock.  The risk/reward of the tee shot sets up the approach to the green.  At least 18 at Hackensack and 4 at Yale have the tee shot somewhat angled, but they are missing the blindness part that Piping Rock has.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Don't most "Road" holes lack the impediment provided by the shed/hotel ?

NGLA compensates for that with a large bunker complex that can be punitive.

Why don't more "Road" holes present that obstacle for the drive.

How would you expand or introduce it at Piping Rock ?

# 8 is better with the added length and the green complex is one of the best

Bill, what makes you so sure that I won't have internet access ?

Old Macdonald on Columbus Day, what could be better ?

[Ian Mackenzie]

Perhaps the 10th at Shoreacres.
There is indeed an impediment or obstacle to the tee shot as a small ravine runs down the right side right up to the elbow of the small dogleg right.

This hole was just lengthened. I believe it was 457 and now it is close to 480.

[Mark Pearce]

The 1st at Crail Craighead is a modern take on a Road Hole, with a dogleg left and a bunker complex and gorse on the inside of the dogleg.  Ran's course profile has a picture of the green, showing the severe, gathering front bunker.

[Ian Andrew]

Huntington Country Club's 7th green

[Sean_A]

Hang on there right coaster MacRayBanks suck ups.  Lets go back to the motherland and 1922.  You want a Road Hole?  Visit Weston-super-Mare.  The 15th is a banger Road Hole of some 450 yards with a blind tee shot over a large man-made mound which is used for a few previous hole.  I think Dr Mac recognized the possibility of a Roader and used the previously erected mound (by Dunne?) to great effect.  The hole comes complete with a slightly raised green angled to the rear left, front left bunker and a track to the right backed by OOB.  I have never seen a hole in person or pix which so faithfully replicates the important features of a Roader...including getting the prevailing wind direct correct and the general unattractive nature of the hole.  Its all sums up to tempting people to earn a 4 when for most a 5 is a good score...just like the original.  

Ciao  

[Emil Weber]

Hang on there right coaster MacRayBanks suck ups.  Lets go back to the motherland and 1922.  You want a Road Hole?  Visit Weston-super-Mare.  The 15th is a banger Road Hole of some 450 yards with a blind tee shot over a large man-made mound which is used for a few previous hole.  I think Dr Mac recognized the possibility of a Roader and used the previously erected mound (by Dunne?) to great effect.  The hole comes complete with a slightly raised green angled to the rear left, front left bunker and a track to the right backed by OOB.  I have never seen a hole in person or pix which so faithfully replicates the important features of a Roader...including getting the prevailing wind direct correct and the general unattractive nature of the hole.  Its all sums up to tempting people to earn a 4 when for most a 5 is a good score...just like the original. 

Ciao 

Sean,

What is the prevailing wind at TOC's roader?

Cheers

[Ronald Montesano]

Reply #12 (the one with the overhead photo.)

You're darned right they used only features. The only thing I see in that hole that reminds me of TRH at TOC is the bunker left of the green. I think the one at Southampton bears more resemblance to the original.

Playability is opposite direction, hazards in the drive zone that aren't in the original, uphill versus flat. Not much similarity.

[Bill McKinley]

I thought the Road hole at Shoreacres was excellent.  The tee shot was similar to that of TOC minus the obstructed view.  However, now you do actually hit over a road from the back tees.  To get the ball close on the green you must either challenge the OB and ravine down the right side with your tee ball or play a low running right to left shot with your 2nd.  The front bunker is not nearly as menacing as TOC but the "road" bunker (Meaning the bunker to the right of the green which simulates the road) at Shoreacres is really good.  If you hit it over there, it's a really tough shot, even tougher when the greens are firm. 

[Josh Tarble]

I wouldn't call it an exact replica template as it's very short, but 14 at Cape Kidnappers is a nice take on the Road Hole.  A deep gully replaces the shed and the bunker is especially fearsome.

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