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RJ_Daley

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Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #200 on: October 14, 2014, 11:56:12 AM »
Niall, quite honestly I would say to any club or entity in the position to "purchase" alleged drawings that purport to give provenance and authenticity to work promised to be done and to be faithful to an original archies style and intent;  CAVEAT EMPTOR! 

If you have the resources to bid up for such "validation" via a commercial trade for a so-called collectible, then you enter the arena of such trade or auctions as a risk.  If validation is so important to the traditions or value in financial or historical integrity terms, then you must entertain the sort of sifting and winnowing of authenticity of such artifacts or documents... and it is the acquiring entities duty to do so.  Ask all the difficult questions and seek all the facts. 

As alluded to in my previous, IMHO, I don't think this set of coincidental circumstances of a heretofore unknown meeting of these golf architecture historical figures has mattered at all to the actual quality of the GCA product or art of design that we have from our modern day archies.  If some modern day archie says he/she is channelling some classic era archie, again I say Caveat Emtur. ::) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #201 on: October 14, 2014, 12:28:14 PM »
For what it's worth, the England and Wales death index lists a "David Scott-Taylor" and a "David S. Taylor" as having died in Chester in December 1933 at the age of 58.  One is on the page under "S" for Scott-Taylor and the other is on another page under "T" for Taylor.  Both references point to the same volume and page number so are presumably the same person.  This information is consistent with the death notice previously posted.






Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #202 on: October 14, 2014, 12:46:13 PM »
There are plenty of subtexts and personal ego and financial motivation, and axes being ground based on past perceived transgressions that have gone on among this GCA tribe.  This thread has given both an opportunity to pursue the ideal of sifting and winnowing, and the forum for axe grinding and ego puffery.  

And, who is being pompous, who is being disingenuous, and who is being dishonest here, and who is being true to the pursuit of facts, no matter how inconsequential the truth in this particular matter is related to the grand scheme of things?

So, does this process and debate teach us anything about ourselves or human nature.  I think so...

For us trained at lesser institutions, please summarize with simple words in short sentences what it is that we might have learned (about ourselves AND human nature).

I got a kick a few years back when one of our guys went around poking holes in the ground with a golf shaft to discover "bunker carcasses".   A new specialty- "forensic architecture"- was created here.

It is a testament to golf that we can get so much enjoyment out of different aspects of the game, often without playing it very well.  TE Paul is a genius for recognizing (and coining) that Golf Is A Big World.  Who knew that digging through ship manifests, census records, newspaper archives, old books, etc. in the age of the internet would provide an outlet for a quick golf fix (and a bit of recognition/significance- is that what the ego puffery comment is about?).

As to the plaque, I wonder whether the donors would have it removed if alive today.  Oh, "the truth"!  So relative, so circumstantial, so defined by convenience and situation.  As it was in 1910, pounding a square peg into a round hole remains an impossible task.  No amount of tedious rhetoric, circular logic, "scholarship" gets it through without major damage.

Let the food fight continue.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 12:47:59 PM by Lou_Duran »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #203 on: October 14, 2014, 01:44:50 PM »
Turning back, I hope, to the actual exploration of whether or not this material is authentic . . . Niall raises some interesting points about David Scott-Taylor's desire to get "9 holes" in St. Andrews in 1901.   I'd like to add a few more questions and concerns about this particular aspect of the story.

1. The May 11, 1901 "Competition" at The Old Course.  According to the questioned diaries, David Scott-Taylor and his unnamed brother had traveled to St. Andrews by train from Dundee on May 10 so his brother could compete in a May 11, 1901 match play "competition" on The Old Course. From the questioned May 11, 1901 journal entry:

"Big day for my brother, I’ll be there for him today to cheer him on.  Hope to get 9 holes in myself. Weather blowing hard today, the old course will show her teeth today. Tee time 9.08 this morning. I had his breakfast he’s so nervous, poor bugger. . . . Yesterday was a bust for an early round and just to relax a bit before today’s competition."

As you can see, the competition seems to have been of some import, and it even drew the attention of the professional Andra Kirkaldy, who supposedly commented on the prodigious lengths of David's brother's opponent: "Even Andra Kirkaldy said 'this whip can belt a ball'."

I have a number of reservations about this description, but I'll list just two here:

   First, it seems unlikely to me that any such competition would have been held at The Old Course that day, because May 11, 1901 was the day after the final day of the 1901 British Amateur Championship, held on The Old Course.  Phil has suggested that both David's brother and the opponent had been competitors in the British Amateur, but according to a list of registered competitors published at the time, neither had competed in the event.  



    Second, while the British newspapers and golf magazines listed results for small golf competitions or even interesting matches at St. Andrews, I've found no record that any "competition" took place at The Old Course on May 11, 1911.  If anyone else can find any mention of such a competition, I'd love to hear about it.   To give an idea of the extent of the coverage of golf at St. Andrews, here is the regular column "Golf at St. Andrews" from the Dundee Evening Telegraph, discussing the matches played on Saturday, May 4, the week before the competition in which DST's brother was supposedly entered:



No such descriptions exist for the supposed May 11, 1901 competition.

2.  The "busted" round on May 10, 1901.  The questioned diary also indicates that David Scott-Taylor and his brother had planned to play "an early round" on May 10, 1910, and " just to relax a bit before today’s competition" but their plan was busted by train delays.  The notion of an "early round" on May 10, 1910 seems highly unlikely since the Amateur Championship was still ongoing on May 10, 1901.  

It also seems odd to me that there is no mention at all of the Amateur Championship in the diaries, as obviously it was the biggest thing happening in the world of golf that week.  Unless the mentioned "competition" was supposed to have referred to the British Amateur, in which case, the date is wrong.

3.  The Long Hitting 170 'pound' American named Fitzroy.  From the questioned diary entry:
“Well the lad lost his match 6&5 to a yank called Fitzroy, I tell you that American lad could hit a golf ball for a piece of string. The tallest, thinnest bloke I ever saw. He had to be 6’5’’ and 170 lbs dripping wet. What a driver of the ball, not one was short of 240 yds. Even Andra Kirkaldy said 'this whip can belt a ball."

This American named Fiztroy was quite a distinctive fellow and a prodigious driver of the golf ball, and apparently good enough to be competing in a competition in St. Andrews.   One might think that there would be some record of him somewhere. I've searched extensively and there is no evidence anywhere of an American lad named Fitzroy who even remotely matches the description.   I've searched the British and American golf magazines (which at the time covered even extremely small events) and even done extensive newspaper searches in America and in British papers, which also covered even small golf events.  I've also checked the travel records of those traveling back and forth from America.  Nothing has come up.  So far, the lanky American named "Fitzroy" is a ghost.

There are other problems the description as well:
  - For example, as discussed on another thread, the questioned diary entry uses phrases what weren't in common usage in 1901.
  - For another example, as discussed above, the question diary entry refers to Fitzroy's weight in pounds, not in stone.  

In short, there is a lot about even this brief entry that doesn't seem to check out.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 01:48:44 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #204 on: October 14, 2014, 02:02:58 PM »
Lou,

Quote
For us trained at lesser institutions, please summarize with simple words in short sentences what it is that we might have learned (about ourselves AND human nature).

I posed the point as a question.  I added that I think so.  Do you think not?

Quote
As to the plaque, I wonder whether the donors would have it removed if alive today.

I assume you read the webpage describing the circumstances surrounding the gift of the plaque.  I think I might understand that you aren't attracted to aspects of the story behind the plaque.  You speak of " tedious rhetoric, circular logic, "scholarship" "  But, are you opposed to tedious rhetoric, if it might be your own that others feel is tedious; or is logic circular if it keeps coming back to a premise or ideal that suggests a theme, only if you disagree with I;, and is "scholarship" used as a term  with a negative view that it is only scholarly  to promote truth or ideals  that isn't uncomfortable to the status quo or your world view?

Do they not 'sift and winnow' at TOSU?  ;D

Would they remove it today?  This was the dawn of the "Progressive period" which was very robust here, so in my opinion, they'd restore it and renew it as an ideal of the University of Wisconsin.

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Will Lozier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #205 on: October 14, 2014, 02:15:21 PM »

Will

Some things to bear in mind in this discussion;

IST was looking to play on a Saturday morning with apparently no pre-arranged tee-time. In 1901 there was a ballot process although not sure if it was in operation that early in the season. Either way the course was busy and therefore the opportunity to "cut-in" would be extremely limited. Over crowding was a big issue at St Andrews at the time which is why the Jubliee subsequently got extended and the Eden was built.

Both the Old and the New have/had out and back routings, meaning the turn is nearly as far from the town as you are going to get, so why decide only to play 9 holes knowing you couldn't cut in. Also, assuming you could cut-in on the Old course, how would you manage to play a number of holes totalling 9 ? No logical answer if you think about.

Niall


If you read my post correctly, I was trying to make this exact point while playing devil's advocate at the same time.  If you played the first five at TOC, you'd play the last five and so on.  There is no logical way to play "nine" on that layout.

And, per your first point, I never heard the time of day or actual day.  I just found the discussion about suspicious phrasing interesting and thought I'd try to pose a situation that might make it reasonable...ultimately failing!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #206 on: October 14, 2014, 02:38:58 PM »
 



On the bright side, you've proven convincingly that there were several golf course architects present in St. Andrews that week.  If only Colt and Herbert Fowler and John Low had stopped in for dinner at The Scores!   :o

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #207 on: October 14, 2014, 02:55:53 PM »
Tom, how do you know they didn't stop by the Scores Grand Hotel?   The questioned May 11 dairy entry provides a tantalizing tidbit about another "golf designer" in town, and perhaps a bit of foreshadowing.  

According to the dairy, MacKenzie "was in the area looking at golf courses with a golf designer friend of his."

Ian leaves us hanging as to the identity of that "golf designer friend of his", but who could it be if not one of those you mentioned?  My personal guess was Colt (which would have foreshadowed perhaps a Colt drawing down the road) but then (like the rest of them) Colt was there to compete in the Amateur, not to "look[] at some golf courses."  

It baffles me how David Scott-Taylor could have arrived in St. Andrews on the last day of the Amateur Championship and yet not bother to mention it in his diaries.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #208 on: October 14, 2014, 03:09:22 PM »
For what it's worth, the England and Wales death index lists a "David Scott-Taylor" and a "David S. Taylor" as having died in Chester in December 1933 at the age of 58.  One is on the page under "S" for Scott-Taylor and the other is on another page under "T" for Taylor.  Both references point to the same volume and page number so are presumably the same person.  This information is consistent with the death notice previously posted.

Bryan,  the information is also consistent with the David Scott-Taylor's 1911 Census form, as the Scott-Taylor family seems to have relocated to the Chester area. Ian's grandfather died in Chester in 1933.  His first wife had died in Nantwich, Cheshire, 20 miles from Chester, in 1931.  His son (Ian's half-uncle) would die in Chester in 1967, and his daughter (not yet born at the time of the 1911 Census) died in West Cheshire in 1971.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #209 on: October 14, 2014, 03:30:06 PM »
Dick,

No, I did not see the webpage.  My comments apply to most universities including Ohio State where political correctness and left-wing orthodoxy excludes anything that might compete intellectually.  The open consideration of ideas and opinions is desirable.  That is not the status quo in education today beginning in pre-school and all the way through the most prestigious, highest levels of academia.

As to the positions I hold, I will debate them with you or anyone else without resorting to name calling, strawman arguments, and otherwise reducing opposing issues to tirades (what is it that you like to label most anything that doesn't work with your labor world view?  sophistry?).  And if someone can demonstrate a superior perspective, I readily adopt the better information.  Who wants to be wrong?

As to your comment posed as a question, I thought you had an opinion and I was interested in knowing what it was.  I am not seeing a lot in this thread that is edifying, but I don't have a great interest in this aspect of golf history or see how it is relevant to gca today (I think we agree on that).  I am nevertheless impressed with the level of effort being put forth to prove both points.  I suspect that there is more here than meets the eye- my reason for perusing the thread occasionally- and perhaps "the truth" might be arrived at some day.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #210 on: October 14, 2014, 03:45:56 PM »
Also Bryan, it is highly probable that the information in the obituary and the information on the death certificate both came from the family member who reported the death. According to the General Registration Office in London, for deaths prior to 1969 the information on the death certificate is that which was provided by the person reporting the death, and this was usually an immediate family member such as a spouse.  

The Office provides an example of an old death certificate and next to the section marked "Age," the Office provides the following warning:

"Age: The informant gives the deceased’s age at death to the best of their knowledge. This is not always correct."

________________________________________

Lou and R.J.,

Do you think you could perhaps be so kind as to take your debate to another thread, as it really has nothing to do with whether or not the Scott-Taylor Materials are authentic?

Thanks!
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #211 on: October 14, 2014, 03:54:22 PM »
Just out of curiosity, what is the "do" listing for competitors in that Brit Am article?  Since some have club affiliations, I presume it is some then current phrase for unaffiliated?

Do note a "Gilroy" in the field, but its a stretch to assume the diary had the name slightly wrong.

If the diary is correct, we should be looking at a minor revision to the Mac Diary, since there is no record in May 1901......

If nothing else, this thread (again) proves that our new breed of amateur golf historian leaves no stone unturned and the level of proof required for acceptance of most documents is getting higher, thanks to a few intrepid folks who question most everything, after seeing how many club histories have some very generalized, and often wrong, content.

Always interesting to follow those who spend so much time on golf architecture history, even if it gets difficult at times.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #212 on: October 14, 2014, 03:55:51 PM »
Jeff,
Short for 'ditto'
Cheers,
M.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #213 on: October 14, 2014, 04:06:44 PM »
As Martin said, "do" is short for ditto.  Meaning same club affiliation as above. So C.E. Gilroy was a member of the R&A.  A quick search suggests that C.E. Gilroy was Charles Edward Gilroy of Dundee, who was a golfer and a cricketer.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #214 on: October 14, 2014, 04:08:33 PM »
Martin,

Thanks. And yes, then Gilroy wouldn't have been a lanky American.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #215 on: October 14, 2014, 04:22:07 PM »
Sure David.  Dick and I are probably finished anyways.

But is authentication what this thread is really mostly about?  Seems like Caveat Emptor was properly recommended pages ago.

Attempting to cloud the reputation of the Dr. by linking him to a homicide?  Cold calling a family member under a false identity?  GCA as the Consumer Reports of golf's historical items.  A bit drastic for public service it seems.  But I do appreciate your efforts as Moderator in addition to guardian of the truth.

This thread brings to mind an observation by Brad Klein (I think) years ago that some of the fiercest battles are fought in the faculty lounge over the most inconsequential matters.  I suspect that what meaningful commercial value the Scott-Taylor collection has will be determined by buyers whose expertise in these matters is motivated by self-interest and is far superior.  

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #216 on: October 14, 2014, 04:44:07 PM »
Even though this issue is not particularly mysterious, as someone who used to study literature and folklore I can't stay away.

I want to go back to the beginning here, as I just reread the Hubris and a Point of Honor thread. Has any explanation, plausible or otherwise, been given for why the family would make up a story about Tillinghast's whereabouts, when subsequently revealed journal entries contradicted it?
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Jonathan Mallard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #217 on: October 14, 2014, 04:54:42 PM »
 
<picture snipped>


On the bright side, you've proven convincingly that there were several golf course architects present in St. Andrews that week.  If only Colt and Herbert Fowler and John Low had stopped in for dinner at The Scores!   :o

+1

As Martin said, "do" is short for ditto.  Meaning same club affiliation as above. So C.E. Gilroy was a member of the R&A.  A quick search suggests that C.E. Gilroy was Charles Edward Gilroy of Dundee, who was a golfer and a cricketer.

Just for the record - and no offense intended to either respondent - "do" is probably more correctly an abbreviation of "do over" which of course means exactly the same thing.

This was very common notation on building plans of this, and later eras. When there were a few hundred steel members that were identically detailed (for floors in warehouse bays, etc) it was common to detail 1, and then abbreviate "d. o." for the rest of them.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #218 on: October 14, 2014, 05:00:24 PM »
Lou, I can't speak for others, and I certainly can't speak for whoever might have called Ian's sister, but for me the only thing this thread is about is figuring out whether the Scott-Taylor Material is authentic.
_________________________________

Even though this issue is not particularly mysterious, as someone who used to study literature and folklore I can't stay away.

I want to go back to the beginning here, as I just reread the Hubris and a Point of Honor thread. Has any explanation, plausible or otherwise, been given for why the family would make up a story about Tillinghast's whereabouts, when subsequently revealed journal entries contradicted it?

Michael,  That is a very good question, and the answer provided by Phil and Ian is attenuated at best.

The short of it is that after I exposed the Tillingast portion of the story as fiction, Phil and Ian claimed that the Tillinghast story was based on Taylor-Scott family legend, and that no one had ever bothered to check it against the actual diaries.  This despite the fact that they had repeatedly insisted that all of the details in their first story were directly from the diaries.
_________________________________

Jonathan, Thanks for the clarification.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #219 on: October 14, 2014, 05:59:30 PM »
David.

There doesn't appear to be a knock-out blow in the case against the diaries/sketches being authentic.  If there s a case, it is a conglomeration of suspicions and things that don't quite check out. 

Is it possible for you somewhere in a thread to provide a summary of all the suspicions and inconsistencies that are left hanging at the moment? 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Ryan Coles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #220 on: October 14, 2014, 06:28:15 PM »
David.

There doesn't appear to be a knock-out blow in the case against the diaries/sketches being authentic.  If there s a case, it is a conglomeration of suspicions and things that don't quite check out. 

Is it possible for you somewhere in a thread to provide a summary of all the suspicions and inconsistencies that are left hanging at the moment? 

Maybe not a knockout blow, but the ref should have stepped in long ago to save further punishment. Of those who followed the threads closely, is there anyone left who's prepared to say they've not been swayed by David and co's unanswered questions/discrepancies?

The opening post of the hubris thread, in my opinion, says how this has happened and continued to happen.


Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #221 on: October 14, 2014, 06:34:56 PM »
Another thread? What for? There seems to be no interest on the part of the owners of the material to either publish or discuss it. So David Moriarty can in effect drag this thing on and on like he did with the Merion debate and hope to win by attrition.

There is no story out there that you cannot punch some holes in. Was the moon landing fake? Who is responsible for 9/11? Did the CIA kill JFK? There are some VERY convincing accounts out there that punch holes in the official version of history. It proves nothing except that there are any number of zealots out there. In my opinion their motivation is not search for truth, but self-aggrandizement.

Ulrich
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 06:36:42 PM by Ulrich Mayring »
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #222 on: October 14, 2014, 07:07:37 PM »
David.

There doesn't appear to be a knock-out blow in the case against the diaries/sketches being authentic.  If there s a case, it is a conglomeration of suspicions and things that don't quite check out. 

Is it possible for you somewhere in a thread to provide a summary of all the suspicions and inconsistencies that are left hanging at the moment? 

Maybe not a knockout blow, but the ref should have stepped in long ago to save further punishment. Of those who followed the threads closely, is there anyone left who's prepared to say they've not been swayed by David and co's unanswered questions/discrepancies?

The opening post of the hubris thread, in my opinion, says how this has happened and continued to happen.



I stand firmly undecided  :D.  There are too many unanswered questions and lack of material to decide either way.  Anybody with a firm opinion not in possession of a lot more info is prematurely persuaded.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #223 on: October 14, 2014, 08:51:16 PM »
Thread after thread Moriarty plays the same game. Everything or everyone in the world can't be fake or a liar. Maybe he is wrong this one time.

A witch hunt is rarely about witches.

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...
« Reply #224 on: October 14, 2014, 09:25:42 PM »
As I had already posted the family had now decided to make the drawings, diaries authentications and more available to authenticated researchers and historians. The names would be made public.

Because of this beyond stupid stunt that may never happen now… And its your own fault.

Just when we were getting so close!
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

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