Authenticating the Tillinghast Sketches update by Phil Young ...

[Duncan Cheslett]

Thanks for that, David. For me that seals it that Ian's grandfather was indeed the doctor in the homicide case.

My slight reservation had been over the missing hyphen in the name 'Scott-Taylor' in the three newspaper clippings I posted reporting the case. Was it, I wondered, possible that a Dr David Taylor had existed who happened to have the middle name 'Scott'? Full names of all the other participants were used in the reports, as is the norm in legal reporting.

The presence of a hyphen in DS-T's name on the document you have posted answers that question. It is the same man.

Thoughts of missing hyphens bring me to the 'death notice', by which Phil set so much store early in this thread.




There are some odd and so far unexplained details about this newspaper report.

Firstly, it isn't a death notice. Death notices are generally inserted by the undertaker on behalf of the family, give details of the funeral arrangements, and traditionally end with a list of family members left by the deceased. I have started looking for DS-T's death notice but have not so far been successful.

Secondly, it gives DS-T's address as being in Rhosygaer Avenue, Holyhead.  This is Rhos y Gaer Avenue, Holyhead;



He is described as working however, as an assistant doctor in Caergwle and living in Pontybodkin.   These are villages near Wrexham, a full eighty miles and two hours away at the other side of North Wales!



An impression has been given of DS-T being a pillar of the Holyhead community and having his own medical practice. In fact he was working  in a junior role in a remote rural part of North Wales and living in digs!  

The Holyhead connection appears to be purely through his new wife. There is no suggestion that he ever worked or practiced medicine there.

The other details in the report are the kind of information that could only be supplied by the family - in this case his young wife. In turn, these details would almost certainly be purely anecdotal - things that he had told her. There would be no reason for or expectation on the junior reporter tasked with putting together the piece to check the facts out.

So everything about being Sir Walter Scott's grandson, being mentioned in despatches five times etc. etc. is based on what an unsuccessful itinerant middle aged and possibly lecherous doctor told an impressionable young Holyhead girl as he wooed her to the altar...


All this also brings us to the question I raised with Ian yesterday.

In a press release last year Ian made claims that Alister MacKenzie used to visit his grandfather in Holyhead.


“My grandfather, Dr. David Scott-Taylor, and Doctor MacKenzie first met in Edinburgh,” Scott-Taylor recalls. “Grandfather was at the university’s medical college, was a scratch golfer and also had the reputation as a fine rugby player. MacKenzie was keen on rugby and they became fast friends. They both served in the British Army during World War I and later my grandfather became a surgeon at Chester Royal Infirmary and would host MacKenzie at his home there and also in Wales at Holyhead. On one such visit to Holyhead, grandfather took MacKenzie to Nefyn to play and he was so struck with the dramatic cliff top holes that he set about looking for land to emulate what he had experienced. I believe this trip became the inspiration for his design of Cypress Point and also his work at Monterey Peninsula Country Club’s Dunes Course.”


http://americangolfer.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/golf-architect-ian-scott-taylor-made.html

Does anyone know whether DS-T was actually ever a surgeon in Chester, and if so, why did he end up as a lowly assistant in a rural GP practice near Wrexham while his pregnant young wife was back in Holyhead?

When exactly did Mackenzie visit Nefyn with DS-T?  Cypress Point was designed in 1928.  As far as we know DS-T had never even heard of Holyhead then and had only just avoided imprisonment - or worse -  in Australia.  

It doesn't stack up!

[Bryan Izatt]

At the following National Archive address,

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7748778

a David Scott Taylor with the same regimental number as the Medal Card DST that David M posted earlier, is shown as enlisting on 22 February 1898.  It also lists his birth date as 20 April 1877 which would have made in 33 in the 1911 Census conducted on April 2, 1911, contrary to the 35 listed in the 1911 Census.

He enlisted in 1898 and appears to be still in the service up to 1922.  If it is the same DST, one wonders how he started college in 1894 and finished medical school by 1898 so he could enlist.  Could you become a surgeon within 4 years.  Could he have become a surgeon while in the Navy?

Anybody who's got £3.30 could get the digital image from the NA and see what other information is on it.

The marriage certificate index has a David Scott Taylor marrying Ethel Jones in December 1932 in Conwy Wales.  This would be Ian's grandmother.  I can find no birth or death records for DST.

The David Scott Taylor in the 1911 Census was married to Ada Clara Porter.  The marriage took place in Alverstoke in the last quarter of 1901.  Ada Clara died in 1931 at Nantwich.  In the 1901 Census, conducted in April 1901, Ada C Porter was a mother's helper in Portsmouth for a family named Taylor (a coincidence?) although there was no David in that family.  Presumably she would have known DST by then since she would marry him later in the year.  Could 1911 Census DST have been a relative of this Taylor family?  Still nothing concrete to prove that the 1911 Census DST is the DST we are seeking. 

One wonders if Scott was a second name for David rather than a hyphenated last name.  When did people generally start using hyphenated names?

[Duncan Cheslett]

Bryan,

I don't think that DS-T was ever a surgeon. Surgeons in the UK do not use the title "Dr", instead they revert to "Mr" after qualifying. This harks back to a time when surgeons were not medical men, instead being apprenticed tradesmen on a par with carpenters and barbers.

In fact many barbers used to double up as surgeons. This is the rather macabre origin of the red and white barbers' pole.

As a ships doctor he would have had to undertake basic surgery as required,  but I can see no evidence that he ever qualified as a surgeon.

The incident in Australia suggests that he wasn't a tremendous success at whatever surgical procedures he did undertake.

[Duncan Cheslett]

The Holyhead connection intrigues me.

Holyhead exists as a town for one reason only; it is the main staging post for travellers and goods between England and Ireland. Many ferries would have plyed the route between Holyhead and Dublin.

It would be very interesting to know whether a Dr David Scott-Taylor was employed as medical officer on any of them in the early 1930s. 

[Ulrich Mayring]

Duncan,

Ian Scott-Taylor wrote he believes that playing Nefyn was MacKenzie's inspiration for designing Cypress Point. He does not claim this as a fact, but clearly labels it as a personal opionion. I think we are going too far weighing everything that everyone has ever said against rigorous scientific standards.

Let's stick to the actual published reports and clippings and give everyone some leeway in casual discussion and conversation.

Ulrich

[Duncan Cheslett]

Fair point about Nefyn and Cypress Point Ulrich, but my main thrust was that it was unlikely that MacKenzie ever visited DST in Holyhead as he didn't live there while Mac was still active in the UK.

I'd be interested to know where Ian got this story. Family folklore or is it in the journals?

[Ed Oden]

Duncan, you have found a number of very interesting items, raised some good points and asked relevant questions.  Using what you and others have unearthed to question whether the story Ian and Phil have advanced "stacks up" is entirely appropriate in my opinion.  However, I would be very careful when making assumptions about an individual's character from snippets.  Statements such as these don't serve your argument well, even if there may be some aspect of validity to them...

So everything about being Sir Walter Scott's grandson, being mentioned in despatches five times etc. etc. is based on what an unsuccessful itinerant middle aged and possibly lecherous doctor told an impressionable young Holyhead girl as he wooed her to the altar...

The incident in Australia suggests that he wasn't a tremendous success at whatever surgical procedures he did undertake.

Your research tends to cast doubt on Ian and Phil's story.  However, your assumptions and insinuations give the appearance you don't trust that research and feel the need to add to it.  Just my opinion, but you are far better off trusting the research.  If you are ultimately proven correct, the research will be the only relevant thing.

[Duncan Cheslett]

I take your point Ed; maybe it is my style to add a little too much 'colour' to my interpretation of the facts before me.

I've not actually done much research; for that I must credit others. I'm just trying to apply a little logical thinking to facts already in the public domain.

I agree with your second example being a little over the top,  but not the first.

I don't think that I add anything like as much colour as Phil, though! 

[DMoriarty]

I very much agree with Ulrich and Ed that we should try to turn this subject to "published reports and clippings" and other verifiable facts.  That is what I have been trying to do throughout this thread and before. The trouble is, there are very few verifiable facts backing up Ian and Phil's story thus far, and whatever little information they have given us hasn't check out thus far, and Ian and Phil have refused to provide even the most basic biographical information for us to check further.  So we take what little there is and try to see if it check out.

In this regard, even if we set aside the speculation about Cypress, the passage Duncan quoted contains some kernels of facts that are worth checking.  If they are true, at least some of the information ought to check out.  
 - Grandfather was at the [Edinburgh] university’s medical college.
 - Grandfather was a scratch golfer.
 - Grandfather had the reputation of a fine rugby player.
 - Grandfather became a surgeon at Chester Royal Infirmary.
 - Grandfather would host MacKenzie at his home there [in Chester]
 - Grandfather would also host MacKenzie also in Wales at Holyhead.
 - Grandfather took MacKenzie to Nefyn to play.
 - After seeing the cliffs Mackenzie set about looking for land to emulate what he had experienced.

All but perhaps the last entry give us some guideline as to they type of information we ought to look for to see if the story is true.

If Ian's grandfather was a student at at University of Edinburgh's medical college there ought to be a record of it, and there is indeed a record of it.  The Edinburgh Medical Journal reported that in 1894 "David Scott Taylor, Alyth" passed his first of a series of required examinations.   Phil has argued that this was Ian's grandfather.

If Ian's grandfather was indeed "a scratch golfer"  in the late 1800's and early 1900's, then one would expect that there would be some record of it in newspaper and/or golf magazine accounts of tournaments and event which were very common at that time, or at least in club records (which were often reported in the same.)   But there is no record of this at all, and Ian and Phil refuse to provide basic information about his club affiliations or even his residences so we can look into it further.

If Ian's grandfather had a reputation as a fine rugby player, then there would be a record of it, as club rugby was covered by the press.  Again Phil and Ian haven't provided information identifying his club(s) so we can look into it further.

If Ian's grandfather was a surgeon at Royal Chester Infirmary, one would expect there to be a record of it somewhere.  The obituary suggests that he was a country doctor, not a Hospital surgeon.

The snippet also suggests that Ian's grandfather already had a presence in Holyhead before 1926, which was when MacKenzie received the commission to design Cypress.  Given that Ian's grandfather did not marry into a Holyhead family until 1931, then I am not sure this checks out either. It seems like Ian and Phil ought to be able to shed some light on his Holyhead connection, but they are refusing to provide even the most basic biographical information, and have not answered Duncan's question about when his grandfather hosted MacKenzie at Nefyn.

Remember, all this information allegedly comes from the detailed diaries, so filling in some of the details ought to be a breeze for Ian.

[Mike Hendren]

This thread reminds me of a high school basketball game:  A hundred spectators badly in need of exercise watching ten boys badly in need of a break.  At least it's adding to my very short list of GCA members I'd just as soon not tee it up with.

For the record, my ancestors have never done anything that warrants attention, save funding a couple of churches in Curve, Tennessee (please trust me on this and don't waste your precious research time on it - don't any of you actually work for a living?). 

I suggest you boys take this off-line.  You look very small at this point.

Bogey

[Paul_Turner]

Just a note about dating convention in early part of C20th:  had a quick look through several Harry Colt docs from back then and he used dd/mm/yy if digital but Month/day/year if the month was spelled out i.e. he has a letter headed with April 23rd 1926 with an attached bill showing 23.4.26

[Wayne_Kozun]

@Bogey - I disagree about taking this offline as I find this whole series of threads fascinating - perhaps it is like watching NASCAR for car wrecks. 

Seeing new items that are a century old, like a scan of a census form, newspaper clippings from Australia or a military record, is very interesting and we are seeing the whole authentication debate/process happen in real time.  I do agree that emotions are getting carried away from time to time and that behaviour could be a little more civil.

[John Kavanaugh]

@Bogey - I disagree about taking this offline as I find this whole series of threads fascinating - perhaps it is like watching NASCAR for car wrecks. 

Seeing new items that are a century old, like a scan of a census form, newspaper clippings from Australia or a military record, is very interesting and we are seeing the whole authentication debate/process happen in real time.  I do agree that emotions are getting carried away from time to time and that behaviour could be a little more civil.

This is not how an actual authentication debate/process works. This is more like what you find in the comment section of Yahoo News.

[DMoriarty]

Just a note about dating convention in early part of C20th:  had a quick look through several Harry Colt docs from back then and he used dd/mm/yy if digital but Month/day/year if the month was spelled out i.e. he has a letter headed with April 23rd 1926 with an attached bill showing 23.4.26

Thanks Paul,  I'll cross that off the list.
____________________________________________

Bogey,   I tried my best to deal with this offline, to no avail. I went to Phil privately and proved to him that substantial portions of Ian's original story were false, despite their representations that Ian's story came directly from the diaries.   So far as I am concerned, the whole thing should have ended then, and I privately encouraged both Phil and Ran to distance themselves from the whole affair.  But Phil went all in with Ian, and Ran keeps having them back so they can try and make their case, so here we are.  

So while you are judging harshly for participating, keep in mind that Ian and Phil are the ones who have come to gca.com (on three different occasions) trying to pass off this material as authentic.  If that doesn't open up the material to public scrutiny, then what does?

And we aren't just talking about two Tillinghast drawings and a diary.  Ian claims to have dozens of sketches, drawings, and paintings by various famous architects and of various famous golf course and holes, and I've been informed that they have engaged in efforts to try and sell part or all of the collection.  If so, and if the material is not what they represent, then that ought to be brought out publicly.  

If you don't want to read it, then don't.

[John Kavanaugh]

Just a note about dating convention in early part of C20th:  had a quick look through several Harry Colt docs from back then and he used dd/mm/yy if digital but Month/day/year if the month was spelled out i.e. he has a letter headed with April 23rd 1926 with an attached bill showing 23.4.26

Thanks Paul,  I'll cross that off the list.
____________________________________________

Bogey,   I tried my best to deal with this offline, to no avail. I went to Phil privately and proved to him that substantial portions of Ian's original story were false, despite their representations that Ian's story came directly from the diaries.   So far as I am concerned, the whole thing should have ended then, and I privately encouraged both Phil and Ran to distance themselves from the whole affair.  But Phil went all in with Ian, and Ran keeps having them back so they can try and make their case, so here we are.  

So while you are judging harshly for participating, keep in mind that Ian and Phil are the ones who have come to gca.com (on three different occasions) trying to pass off this material as authentic.  If that doesn't open up the material to public scrutiny, then what does?

And we aren't just talking about two Tillinghast drawings and a diary.  Ian claims to have dozens of sketches, drawings, and paintings by various famous architects and of various famous golf course and holes, and I've been informed that they have engaged in efforts to try and sell part or all of the collection.  If so, and if the material is not what they represent, then that ought to be brought out publicly.  

If you don't want to read it, then don't.

No one is buying it. You have made crap up, fudged facts and called out dead relatives. You are an embarrassment to the game of golf and any serious discussion, factual or fiction. I thank God everyday you continue to post as it proves to mice and men that I, no matter the effort, will not be the biggest douche to bag a deer.

[Bill_McBride]

Just a note about dating convention in early part of C20th:  had a quick look through several Harry Colt docs from back then and he used dd/mm/yy if digital but Month/day/year if the month was spelled out i.e. he has a letter headed with April 23rd 1926 with an attached bill showing 23.4.26

Thanks Paul,  I'll cross that off the list.
____________________________________________

Bogey,   I tried my best to deal with this offline, to no avail. I went to Phil privately and proved to him that substantial portions of Ian's original story were false, despite their representations that Ian's story came directly from the diaries.   So far as I am concerned, the whole thing should have ended then, and I privately encouraged both Phil and Ran to distance themselves from the whole affair.  But Phil went all in with Ian, and Ran keeps having them back so they can try and make their case, so here we are.  

So while you are judging harshly for participating, keep in mind that Ian and Phil are the ones who have come to gca.com (on three different occasions) trying to pass off this material as authentic.  If that doesn't open up the material to public scrutiny, then what does?

And we aren't just talking about two Tillinghast drawings and a diary.  Ian claims to have dozens of sketches, drawings, and paintings by various famous architects and of various famous golf course and holes, and I've been informed that they have engaged in efforts to try and sell part or all of the collection.  If so, and if the material is not what they represent, then that ought to be brought out publicly.  

If you don't want to read it, then don't.

No one is buying it. You have made crap up, fudged facts and called out dead relatives. You are an embarrassment to the game of golf and any serious discussion, factual or fiction. I thank God everyday you continue to post as it proves to mice and men that I, no matter the effort, will not be the biggest douche to bag a deer.

To whom are you addressing this comment?

[John Kavanaugh]

Moriarty,

He is the one on the playground telling a kid that his grandpa wasn't a doctor.

[David_Elvins]

I thank God everyday you continue to post as it proves to mice and men that I, no matter the effort, will not be the biggest douche to bag a deer.

Aren't there enough unfounded claims to debate in this thread already?  

Maybe put your money where your mouth is and put up the $1mil pounds to buy a few of the sketches?  It would prove you believe what you are saying. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Maybe you who make unfounded claims get sued for the money you cost the estate.

[Daniel_Wexler]

This is fascinating stuff.

When first I started reading these threads a while back, I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that the great majority of readers would believe these materials to be authentic.  But seeing that Mr. Kavanaugh - whose sole role on GCA seems to be that of the contrarian - is taking the position that they're real, I can only conclude that Mr. Moriarty must be winning over the masses, perhaps by a very wide margin.

Never dull.

[DMoriarty]

Perhaps, Daniel.  But it could just be that Kavanaugh's malevolence toward me is getting the better of him.

Either way I'm not going to pay him any attention.

[Mark Pearce]

Maybe you who make unfounded claims get sued for the money you cost the estate.

This thread has enough problems without your particular brand of nastiness.  Please leave it alone and go back to making fatuous comments about slow play, you're so much better at that.

[RJ_Daley]

My attitude on this is to fall back on an iconic plaque and motto summing up freedom to think, present and debate, found at my alma mater. 



https://kb.wisc.edu/ls/page.php?id=21911

From my point of view about this episode, I value historical accuracy in all matters.  But, in my mind historical accuracy is a fleeting goal to achieve, as history being made is spun into false narratives by interested parties right as facts and events are occurring in real time.  But, to reach back to obscure moments in the history of anything from religion, politics, social development, science & letters, art, and all the other things that shape our culture, is a reaching back nearly impossible to find 'the truth'.  But, it is a worthwhile endeavor in my view to try to understand historical data and look at facts as best we can ferret them out.

But this episode is fraught with drama, that in the grand scheme of things both related to golf course architecture in our real time context and in the shaping of golf course architecture as a discipline and practice that is a learned profession;  this artifact(sketches) of purported historical significance pointing to a potential  chance meeting of three unlikely to have met characters in such a setting, IS INCONSEQUENTIAL TO THE BODY OF WORK THAT IS DONE TODAY.  And, it is a mere curiosity of a narrowly focused tribe of GCA enthusiasts. 

There are plenty of subtexts and personal ego and financial motivation, and axes being ground based on past perceived transgressions that have gone on among this GCA tribe.  This thread has given both an opportunity to pursue the ideal of sifting and winnowing, and the forum for axe grinding and ego puffery. 

And, who is being pompous, who is being disingenuous, and who is being dishonest here, and who is being true to the pursuit of facts, no matter how inconsequential the truth in this particular matter is related to the grand scheme of things?

So, does this process and debate teach us anything about ourselves or human nature.  I think so...

[Niall C]

Tell me RJ, what would you say to a club who own a classic course and who spent a substantial amount of money on supposed "long lost drawings" of their course by some famous architect and decided to do a redesign/refurb/renovation based on those drawings, and then found out that the drawings were fake ? Would you say then that this discussion is inconsequential ?

When you read gca's bios on their website, they more often than not pay at least some lip service to the golden age guys so it's hard to imagine that a newly found body of work by one or more of the golden age guys wouldn't have some resonance on modern architects.

Niall

[Niall C]

The same diary entry (again if my memory serves me right) refers to DST trying to get 9 holes in. A curious expression back then. A few holes or a game of golf maybe, but 9 holes ? Furthermore, where exactly was he going to get these 9 holes ? Assuming he's based in St Andrews, there was only the Old and the New, both of which were/are typical out and back routings so 9 holes would have left him just about as far from town as he could get. That leaves the Jubilee which back then was only 12 holes. So did DST decide to play the first nine of the Jubilee only and leave the other 3 ? Doesn't seem likely.

Niall

Niall,

Interesting observations, especially about rugby.  Per the 9 holes, I suppose he could have just meant to head out and play some mix of holes such that he ended where he wanted, or, simply played as long as possible such that he made "the turn" in time to get back the house.  We've all snuck out as kids from a particular hole and played some routing that ended us back at either the clubhouse or where we started.  Or, for the Old Course, played 5 out and 4 back...except there would be no reason to as you'd inevitably come to the conclusion (if you where only going to play "9 holes") that you'd might as well play 10.  Honestly, very interesting.  

I would love for these stories to be true, but, there seem to be too many abnormalities from what I know and have read.  I do wish that all those intimately involved to could recognize their tone.  Anyone checking in would think some of y'all are children.  It's like I tell my (private) high school students whom I "meet" through them having to be spoken to about respect or language :  "This is my first impression of you.  Is this a good example of who YOU are?"  And, then they recognize it.

Cheers

Will

Some things to bear in mind in this discussion;

IST was looking to play on a Saturday morning with apparently no pre-arranged tee-time. In 1901 there was a ballot process although not sure if it was in operation that early in the season. Either way the course was busy and therefore the opportunity to "cut-in" would be extremely limited. Over crowding was a big issue at St Andrews at the time which is why the Jubliee subsequently got extended and the Eden was built.

Both the Old and the New have/had out and back routings, meaning the turn is nearly as far from the town as you are going to get, so why decide only to play 9 holes knowing you couldn't cut in. Also, assuming you could cut-in on the Old course, how would you manage to play a number of holes totalling 9 ? No logical answer if you think about.

Niall