The MacKenzie Chronology 18th Revision Released

[Neil_Crafter]

Around 18 months since the release of the 17th Revision, I'm pleased to announce that the 18th Revision is complete and released.

http://www.alistermackenzie.co.uk/Media/Default/Images/MackenzieChronology.pdf

Loads of new entries, mostly thanks to the marvels of digitised historic newspaper archives. Too many to mention, so if you have any interest in Mackenzie I'd suggest you download the PDF and take a read. Great front and back cover artwork by The Emperor, so many thanks for your efforts Tommy. A big thank you to my co-researchers Nick Leefe, Sean Tully, Mark Bourgeois, Niall Carlton and Mark Rowlinson.

[Tim_Weiman]

Neil,

Nice to see Tommy involved. Beautiful covers. Really interesting document.

Thanks to all involved in putting this together.

[Neil_Crafter]

Thanks Tim, Tommy took my initial idea for the covers and ran with it far beyond where I was thinking, the main is a talent.
Glad you enjoyed the chronology

[Patrick_Mucci]

Neil,

When did AM first show signs of artistic talent and what peeked his interest in golf course design ?

[Neil_Crafter]

Pat we know that shortly after coming back from the Boer War in 1901 he had written a list of suggestions as to how to improve the course in the suggestion book at Leeds GC. They thought his ideas were weird and disregarded them. As for his artistic side I don't really know if he ever did any drawing before he began to draw golf holes and courses.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Good work Neil et al.

I am a little puzzled however, by the following entry;

February 11  1899 Leeds GC, Roundhay, Leeds, England.

Mackenzie plays in the Monthly Medal and finishes in 8th place with a score of 124 (24)=100. This is the
earliest known record of MacKenzie playing golf, although it is likely that
he first played golf in Scotland when there on family holidays.



What basis is there for this conjecture? The family home in Sutherland was fifty miles from the nearest course and there is no suggestion that his father or any other relatives had any interest in the game. Surely the evidence points to MacKenzie's first exposure to golf having been either in Leeds or at Cambridge sometime in the mid to late 1890s?

He clearly hadn't played very much golf by February 1899 if he shot 124 gross off 24! By October 1903 his handicap was down to a very respectable 7.  I've of course known golfers hang around on 18-24 handicaps for years, but they don't normally then go down to single figures.

My inference from this is that he was new to the game in 1899 in his late twenties and got pretty handy over a period of four to five years. Not untypical progress.


When do you think that MacKenzie first visited St Andrews?

[Neil_Crafter]

Duncan
There are a few entries in the Chronology where there is a bit of conjecture, and clearly written as conjecture. I do not see it as detrimental and as the Chronology editor I'm quite ok with having a few of them.

In this particular case i don't think it is an unreasonable suggestion to think that sometime in his first 29 years, with the number of family visits made back to Scotland from Normanton that he might have played golf at some point. My personal view is that it is more likely as not. Irrespective of whether there were golf courses close to the Mackenzie family home now is not really the point, possibly there were small private courses around that are now NLE. Alister was introduced to Scottish activities such as trout fishing and hunting at an early age and I suspect he may have been introduced to golf too. No evidence (yet), just conjecture, but not unreasonable. Doesn't mean I am suggesting he was a regular player or anything, I just think he may well have played on the odd occasion.

In 'The Spirit of St Andrews' he suggested that he became a member at Leeds "thirty five" years ago, and I recently found information that stated he was writing it as early as 1931, but certainly completed by 1933, so that would push the date of his membership there back to 1896 to 1898. Certainly he was no great shakes as a golfer in 1899 as evidenced by his scoring, but he did improve fairly quickly. Again I am not suggesting that he was a regular player prior to joining Leeds GC, but I think he may have had the occasional game in Scotland when younger.

I'm currently also in touch with the Cambridge University GC to see whether he played while at University, they are gong to be checking their records to see, the early indications are that he was likely not a member and they will see if he is ever recorded in their match books.

As for St Andrews, lets not start another discussion on the DST stuff for now 

[DMoriarty]

Neil,

I think Duncan makes a good point.   The work is too solid to bother with unnecessary conjecture about such things as when he started golfing.  When you get to the point of having to speculate about the possibility that there may have been "small private courses around that are now NLE" in order to make your case, then it seems to me that the case is too weak for what is largely an extremely strong work.


Also, speaking of David Scott-Taylor, I was disappointed to see that Ian Scott-Taylor is still listed as one of the contributors to the work.  Surely this is a mistake, isn't it?  You guys aren't really relying in anything from the supposed David Scott-Taylor materials, are you? 

[Duncan Cheslett]

Neil,

My problem with conjecture such as this in a document otherwise constructed from carefully researched contemporary accounts and verifiable facts is that it could mislead the casual reader into assuming that the conjecture is also fact. It is unnecessary and disingenuous 'spin' applied to a scholarly work.

I agree with David that your explanation is a little weak. There is no record of any NLE golf course anywhere near Lochinver on the excellent 'Golfs Missing Links' website. http://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/index.php/scotland-63/north-west/highlands-a-islands

It would seem to be perpetuating a lazy stereotype to suggest that simply because MacKenzie was of Scottish descent and holidayed occasionally in his father's home town in Sutherland he must have played golf. Not all Scots played golf in the late 19th century - particularly in remote rural areas with no golf course! It is not as if the MacKenzies could have hopped in their car or on a train and had a day out at Dornoch. There were no cars or trains in Lochinver!

What reason could you have for wanting the reader to believe that MacKenzie was playing or had an interest in golf long before 1899?

[Neil_Crafter]

Wow, I really feel like I'm getting the third degree here.

Sorry if my 'explanation' is a little weak for you two. I can't see the harm in some occasional conjecture in the odd entry, and as I am the editor I am planning to keep it in! None of my fellow research team members noted anything about it when I ran the draft by them.

You two obviously don't think he played golf in Scotland in his youth, whereas I think he may well have. So we disagree.

As for IS-T being listed as a contributor, I had him in the list from the last revision when he provided us with an entry. Obviously since that time this entry was removed in the interest of not courting any controversy, but it was an oversight that left his name in the contributors list. No sinister plot. And why would you think David we are relying on any of the DS-T material for any of the entries? Did you see any entries credited to David Scott-Taylor? No would be the answer there.

As to "What reason could you have for wanting the reader to believe that MacKenzie was playing or had an interest in golf long before 1899?" no real reason other than I thought it might be of interest if he did. There you go.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Sorry if you feel under the cosh, Neil.

The work that you do in researching MacKenzie is outstanding, and I am personally very grateful for the information you have sent me over the years regarding Reddish Vale. It has contributed massively to our understanding of the early days of our club and course.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I must be a gca nerd.  Not sure why I would have spent part of my weekend hanging on every word, wondering what AM did on the third Tuesday of every month, etc.  Good work and fascinating to me.  I also found myself wondering what he really did in the days between entries. 

Obviously, some of that must have been spent drawing the plans that he was reported to have sent out.  Would love some sense of the time frames and mechanics of his actual work on plans.  As far as we know, did he have a draftsman at different times of his career?

I ask because I did a master plan for a 1936 era course in Reno, which the pro swore was a Mac, mostly because the drafting style was the exact same as the Ohio State courses AM plan.  However, this one was designed by Hunter Jr., who was in charge of construction for Mac and his dad, and obviously kept the construction side going as Design Build in the depression to keep working.  Was he the draftsman in the CA stages?  Or did they have someone else.  BTW, even though his dad was retired and sick, Hunter Jr had no trouble telling folks the course was done by a "legendary" designer, no doubt his father.

[Bill_McBride]

I must be a gca nerd.  Not sure why I would have spent part of my weekend hanging on every word, wondering what AM did on the third Tuesday of every month, etc.  Good work and fascinating to me.  I also found myself wondering what he really did in the days between entries. 

Obviously, some of that must have been spent drawing the plans that he was reported to have sent out.  Would love some sense of the time frames and mechanics of his actual work on plans.  As far as we know, did he have a draftsman at different times of his career?

I ask because I did a master plan for a 1936 era course in Reno, which the pro swore was a Mac, mostly because the drafting style was the exact same as the Ohio State courses AM plan.  However, this one was designed by Hunter Jr., who was in charge of construction for Mac and his dad, and obviously kept the construction side going as Design Build in the depression to keep working.  Was he the draftsman in the CA stages?  Or did they have someone else.  BTW, even though his dad was retired and sick, Hunter Jr had no trouble telling folks the course was done by a "legendary" designer, no doubt his father.

Was that Washoe Golf Course?  I played it a couple of times in 1959 and really liked it.

I thought the craziest thing was the weekly meetings of the Alwoodley committee.  OMG.

[Peter Pallotta]

Neil (and your team) - first off, I think that's simply outstanding work. The layout and look and organization of the material on the first few pages is very appealing and top-notch, and then the content/chronology that follows is remarkable in its detail. (If the day should come when that chronology/content is 'complete' and the informatiin can be re-formatted into a form similar to your first few pages and include photos etc, you will have one your hands a truly excellent books about a Golden Age architect).

All that said, and being a genuine outsider/neophyte in such matters, I have to agree with David and Duncan on the speculation regarding when Dr Mac first played golf. To put it simply, it strikes me as unnecessary and counterproductive (to the high goals/ideals  of the project). To me it adds nothing of substance to the content/chronology, and indeed inadvertently 'colours' the rest of the content, i.e. as a reader, I find myself thinking "well, if they are guessing here, and guessing for no real purpose, where else might they be guessing, and what 'story' are they trying to create?".

But again, kudos to all for very fine work.

Peter

[DMoriarty]

Neil,

I am not sure why you are getting your hackles up over this.  Your work is terrific and research thorough, but even with the best work some questions and critiques and are bound to arise.  It is part of the process and will make the work better in the long run, provided you consider the comments and critiques in the spirit they were intended.

And why would you think David we are relying on any of the DS-T material for any of the entries?

Because you listed Ian Scott Taylor as a contributor.  I didn't go through every single entry and double check the sourcing. I am glad to hear that listing him as a contributor was an oversight on your part.

[Russ Arbuthnot]

From The Spirit of St. Andrews, Chapter 6, 4th & 5th paragraph:

"I first commenced to play golf in Scotland when I was about eighteen years of age. At that time I described it as a rotten game, that you simply smote a ball as hard as you could and then spent half an hour looking for it.

I did not take it up again seriously until nearly ten years later, and I then developed the disease badly."

If AM was born in 1870, "about eighteen" would be 1887-1889. And "nearly ten years later", neatly coincides with his 1899 match.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Perhaps Neil has forgotten this but he chose not to include MY speculation...or is it?

The great golfer Freddie Tait kept a golf diary from the age of 16 where he recorded (presumably all) his matches. The first entries were from July 1886.

On August 30th at St Andrews he played twice agianst Mr Mac'Zie, winning by 4 holes and then 3.

On the 9th September at St Andrews he played a Mr (initial unclear) MacKenzie  and won by 5.
ON the same day they played again when he lost by 2.

ON the 14th he played 3 rounds against the same opponent, wining the first two games by 8 holes and drawing the last.
This time the name of his opponent is clear.  Alister MacKenzie.

Our MacKenzie was 176, the same age as Tait and still at school.  That summer Tait played at St Andrews from 31st July unitl the 17th September. The following year his season was from 4th July to October the 1st.   (Would Tait ahae recorded a juvenile contemporary as 'Mr'?)It is worth adding Tait's successes came from his mid 20's onwards. Low wrote his biography and included quotes from the Golf book, but only after 1896.

I also recall a quote where MacKenzie reminisced about a time when it was common to play 3 rounds in the same day. Can anyone place it?


I will happily send a Jpeg image of this to anyone who agrees to post it on here. Send me an IM with your email address.


PS Outstanding work guys.

[Duncan Cheslett]

From The Spirit of St. Andrews, Chapter 6, 4th & 5th paragraph:

"I first commenced to play golf in Scotland when I was about eighteen years of age. At that time I described it as a rotten game, that you simply smote a ball as hard as you could and then spent half an hour looking for it.

I did not take it up again seriously until nearly ten years later, and I then developed the disease badly."

If AM was born in 1870, "about eighteen" would be 1887-1889. And "nearly ten years later", neatly coincides with his 1899 match.

Thank you Russ.

I have not read 'The Spirit of St Andrews' but I am sure Neil has.  Why then the conjecture that MacKenzie had played golf in Scotland as a young man rather than simply referencing the above quote?

My issue is with the conjecture, not about when MacKenzie started golfing.

[Neil_Crafter]

Russ
Many thanks for your post and the information from Spirit of St Andrews about Mackenzie playing in Scotland when he was 18. Naturally I am kicking myself for not being aware of it, as I have gone through the book on at least three occasions to pick any timeline entries out of there and completely missed this reference, which is no excuse I know - it was hiding in plain sight!

Duncan
The conjecture it would seem was due to my inability to have noticed that reference in his book. Fairly clear I would have thought that I would have referenced it if I had been aware of it  You now mention that your issue with this is about the inclusion of conjecture in our chronology, and not about when he first played golf. Sorry that seems a little disingenuous to me given your arguing in earlier posts about the lack of golf courses within 50 miles of the family home etc.

"The family home in Sutherland was fifty miles from the nearest course and there is no suggestion that his father or any other relatives had any interest in the game. Surely the evidence points to MacKenzie's first exposure to golf having been either in Leeds or at Cambridge sometime in the mid to late 1890s?

He clearly hadn't played very much golf by February 1899 if he shot 124 gross off 24! By October 1903 his handicap was down to a very respectable 7.  I've of course known golfers hang around on 18-24 handicaps for years, but they don't normally then go down to single figures.

My inference from this is that he was new to the game in 1899 in his late twenties and got pretty handy over a period of four to five years. Not untypical progress."

But I do have to thank you Duncan for raising this as that has brought out Russ' contribution due to his eagle eyed reading, which will go in the next revision, whenever that might be.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Thank you Joe Bausch

This is the first page in Tait's book.
[img
width=800]http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Muldoon/intro.jpg[/
img]

Joe has enlarged the interesting bits.

[img
width=800]http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Muldoon/line2.jpg[/
img]

[img
width=800]http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Muldoon/intro.jpg[/
img]




You can work out Tait's scores, but were they playing the full course?  I assume so and it tends to suggest his opponent is not a novice just giving it a lash?

Finally a later diary entry featuring MacKenzie's future partner.

[Tony_Muldoon]

In the Spirit of St Andrews he says he got interested in Golf Architecture after returning from serving in hthe South African War 1899 to 1901  Page 19 (Sleeping Bear paperback).  On page 6 he wrote "Before visiting St Andrews I had what were considered revoutionary ideas regarding golf courses."  This does seem clear that this was his first ever visit at some point after 1901 but it was  "some time later that he was employed to make a plan of the course"  Page 7.


I've been looking for that Quote and the nearest I can find is on page 11 where he references 3 gamesa day in foursomes.


So I now call the integrity of this whole timeline into question as there were likely not one but two contemporary Golfers named Alister Mackenzie!

Time to put this theory back on the shelf marked, Possible but unproven.

(Sorry Joe)

[Neil_Crafter]

Peter P
Appreciate your comments. While I think the occasional conjecture is acceptable I wouldn't want to see too many either. In this case Duncan's highlighting of mine has brought forward this information from Russ who has obviously much advanced reading comprehension skills over mine   which will result in a new timeline entry for the next revision. So it served a purpose at least!

Tony
Thanks for the Tait info, and to Joe for posting the images. I have to say I had forgotten about the Tait matches that you highlighted some time back, apologies   I have to wonder though whether it is our Alister Mackenzie. It would appear from the scores of the three matches you highlighted that young Freddie was shooting around the low 90s - a fairly respectable score for those days - while his opponent shot 91 in one match and a few more in the others. Given that we have a score for our AM in 1899 of 124 you have to wonder if these are the same two men. While it would be nice to imagine the two 16 year olds playing matches around St Andrews in 1886 I'd need some more corroborating info to be more certain. But thanks again for bringing it up.

[Bill_McBride]

Wasn't Freddie Tait the extremely popular young man who was sadly killed in World War I?

[Neil_Crafter]

Bill, Freddie Tait was killed in the Boer War I understand, so some 15 years earlier than WW1.

[Russ Arbuthnot]

Neil, I'm glad I could contribute. I honestly was a bit apprehensive about posting. I feared being flamed for posting known but defeated evidence, even if they are A. Mac's own words!

This thread is the first I had heard of this Chronology, and I spent the better part of Friday afternoon working through the early years. It is quite comprehensive, and I echo the comment that if other forms of media could be linked to entries, you'd have a great book, or website [a la the C.B.M. site.] I've really enjoyed it and can't imagine how many hours have gone into it from all the contributors and collaborators.

One other thought I had while reflecting on the chronology was that it would be great if major events could somehow be called out a bit better—almost like a ranking of the weight of certain events. But it's very easy to think of cool features that could be added to a resource like this, and another thing completely to implement and maintain those features. It's quite amazing in its current form!

I also have this thread to thank for my introduction to Freddie Tait. I found a copy of a book written by John L. Low about Tait on Google Books.