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Neil_Crafter

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Re: The MacKenzie Chronology 18th Revision Released
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2014, 08:42:28 PM »
Neil, I'm glad I could contribute. I honestly was a bit apprehensive about posting. I feared being flamed for posting known but defeated evidence, even if they are A. Mac's own words!

This thread is the first I had heard of this Chronology, and I spent the better part of Friday afternoon working through the early years. It is quite comprehensive, and I echo the comment that if other forms of media could be linked to entries, you'd have a great book, or website [a la the C.B.M. site.] I've really enjoyed it and can't imagine how many hours have gone into it from all the contributors and collaborators.

One other thought I had while reflecting on the chronology was that it would be great if major events could somehow be called out a bit better—almost like a ranking of the weight of certain events. But it's very easy to think of cool features that could be added to a resource like this, and another thing completely to implement and maintain those features. It's quite amazing in its current form!

I also have this thread to thank for my introduction to Freddie Tait. I found a copy of a book written by John L. Low about Tait on Google Books.

Russ, certainly not! Your contribution was very welcome. I'm glad you enjoyed looking through the chronology. I'm not quite so multimedia savvy as Mark Bourgeois who has so ably set up the CBM Timeline,  and there no plans to take it beyond a PDF type document. Personally I'd rather spend time on looking for new entries that to making fancy what we already have. That said, I do have plans for a book one day and lots of the research is done for it, I just have to start writing it up - it will be a book on MacKenzie's courses, but from a historical perspective, not modern day coloured photos.

Russ, just wondering if you have the time to undertake an exercise for the chronology project? If you were willing to go through the Spirit of St Andrews in detail and extract all the possible timeline entries against the chronology and see if there are any more we may have missed? No rush of course but it would be quite worthwhile, I believe I saw another possible one the other day when you drew my attention to the text on Scotland. Let me know what you think. Pay is lousy though! But you will get your name in the credits of the next revision!

Russ Arbuthnot

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Re: The MacKenzie Chronology 18th Revision Released
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2014, 10:42:04 AM »
Neil, I will definitely give it a shot.

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: The MacKenzie Chronology 18th Revision Released
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2014, 04:09:14 PM »
Duncan
The conjecture it would seem was due to my inability to have noticed that reference in his book. Fairly clear I would have thought that I would have referenced it if I had been aware of it  :) You now mention that your issue with this is about the inclusion of conjecture in our chronology, and not about when he first played golf. Sorry that seems a little disingenuous to me given your arguing in earlier posts about the lack of golf courses within 50 miles of the family home etc.

But I do have to thank you Duncan for raising this as that has brought out Russ' contribution due to his eagle eyed reading, which will go in the next revision, whenever that might be.

Neil,

I've just ordered a copy of 'The Spirit of St Andrews' from Amazon. Clearly I need to read it; apparently so do you!   :)

It would seem that confirmation that AM had played golf as a youth but did not visit St Andrews for the first time until after 1901 has been staring us in the face.

He also references Old Tom Morris at some length but makes no mention of having known him personally...




DMoriarty

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Re: The MacKenzie Chronology 18th Revision Released
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2014, 04:24:02 PM »
Maybe I am misreading the S.G. quote, but seems to me to confirm that MacKenzie did not become seriously interested in the game until his late 20's.  It sounds like his experience with golf at age 18 was quite limited, as he thought it was a "rotten game" and as he did not take it up again seriously until some 10 years later.    S.G.  doesn't mention where he played except that it was somewhere in Scotland, and it doesn't support the notion that he grew up playing in Scotland during family holidays.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 04:25:56 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Neil_Crafter

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Re: The MacKenzie Chronology 18th Revision Released
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2014, 08:08:32 PM »
Russ, that would be great, much appreciated. Always good to have fresh eyes.

Duncan and David, SoSA sadly lacks an index, so it can be difficult to find and re-find things. I seem to find new and interesting things out of the book each time I go into it. Here's one, with Mackenzie talking about his golf game in the chapter "In the Seventies at Sixty", p221.

"I am convinced that the theories I have put down are entirely sound. Yesterday, after writing them, I went out to play golf with them firmly planted in my mind. Time after time I outdrove, much to their astonishment, two young fellows who in the past had left me far behind. Notwithstanding a broken bone in my wrist, and in consequence a wasted left arm, I was driving with deadly accuracy and frequency well over two hundred and thirty yards, and my approach play was equally good, despite the fact I was only playing with four clubs."

Now that information about MacKenzie's wrist and his "wasted left arm" was not something that had registered on me previously, and I don't recall it having been brought to light by anyone previously in books or any discussion about Mackenzie. But its not a timeline entry, he wrote the book from around 1931-33, and we don't know when he suffered the wrist injury, recent or old. An interesting fact nevertheless.

So I'm glad Duncan that you have ordered a copy, you'll enjoy it.

I have to take issue Duncan with your statement "after 1901" as Mackenzie does not specifically say "after 1901" in his book.Tony Muldoon also assumed this after 1901 date in his post too. The 'after' part seems to have been added by you and Tony. On page 19 he wrote:

"My own interest in golf course architecture originated in an unusual way. During the years of 1899 to 1901 I was serving in the South African war" he then goes on to talk about the Boers and their natural fortifications, and that "on my return from South Africa I wrote two or three pages in the suggestion book of the Leeds Golf Club" to point out how the course could be changed.

Mackenzie in fact returned from South Africa early in 1901, in early April. By June he was recorded as playing in a medal competition at Leeds GC. So he got back into golf quite quickly it would seem upon his return. My thinking then is that he wrote in the Leeds GC his thoughts on the course in 1901 not so long after returning, especially as it seems he had these ideas generated by what he saw in South Africa going around his head. He says he wrote them "on returning" and not a few years after returning.

I know why you are saying "after 1901" David and Duncan as it suits your hypothesis, but Mackenzie did not say "after 1901" and the known facts support that he was back in Leeds relatively early in 1901, was playing golf again at Leeds GC and was beginning to formulate his ideas on golf courses using the Boer fortifications as his inspiration.

David, Mackenzie wrote that he "first commenced to play golf in Scotland when I was about eighteen years of age", and by the sound of it he may have had more than just one game. You say that this doesn't support the notion that "he grew up playing in Scotland during family holidays" But I never said that David, the speculative entry in the chronology in fact says "it is likely that he first played golf in Scotland when there on family holidays." Which in fact has been proven correct. I did not say that he 'grew up' playing golf in Scotland, rather I said he first played, as these would seem to be two different things, growing up playing golf would seem to imply that it was a much more regular activity which I never suggested.

And if MacKenzie was playing golf in Scotland when he was around 17, 18, 19 years of age, do you imagine he was in Scotland for any other purpose than family holidays? In those years he was finishing his schooling at Wakefield and being admitted into Cambridge.

DMoriarty

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Re: The MacKenzie Chronology 18th Revision Released
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2014, 12:15:25 AM »
Neil,  you wrote:  "I know why you are saying "after 1901" David and Duncan as it suits your hypothesis, but Mackenzie did not say 'after 1901' . . .."

My hypothesis?  I have no hypothesis relating to or relying on the date MacKenzie started golfing, and I have never claimed he started "after 1901."   My thought (based on past readings Scotland's Gift, probably) was that he developed a serious interest in golf sometime after returning from the Boer War, and the quote Russ brought up seems to confirm that.  But it is neither here nor there to me, and I have never taken a hard position that he began "after 1901" as you claim I have.

My concern was (and is) with whether or not the entries in the outline are backed up by fact, or based on conjecture.   In my opinion it is much better and more useful work if the claims are "proven correct" before they are included in the factual outline, not at some later point.  I'm not the only one who feels this way.   The outline is better than that, and no purpose is served by conjecturing about trivial matters such as  "family holidays" without factual support.

When you refer to my "hypothesis," do you mean my strong suspicion that the Scott-Taylor material is not at all what Phil and Ian Scott-Taylor have claimed it to be?  I suppose one could attack that material by focusing on the date actually MacKenzie became a "golf designer," but there are much larger and more insurmountable problems with the material than that.

You aren't still waving the banner for those guys, are you?  If so, could this be why you seem to be trying to jam the date Mac made his Leeds Golf Club suggestions as far back into 1901 as you can?

"Mackenzie in fact returned from South Africa early in 1901, in early April. By June he was recorded as playing in a medal competition at Leeds GC. So he got back into golf quite quickly it would seem upon his return. My thinking then is that he wrote in the Leeds GC his thoughts on the course in 1901 not so long after returning, especially as it seems he had these ideas generated by what he saw in South Africa going around his head. He says he wrote them "on returning" and not a few years after returning."

Interesting conjecture, but by no means the only hypothesis supported by the record thus far.  Surely you aren't thinking of dating the Leeds suggestions based on this conjecture are you?  


« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 12:33:04 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: The MacKenzie Chronology 18th Revision Released
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2014, 01:16:38 AM »
You aren't still waving the banner for those guys, are you?  If so, could this be why you seem to be trying to jam the date Mac made his Leeds Golf Club suggestions as far back into 1901 as you can?

You might think that, David.


I couldn't possibly comment...

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The MacKenzie Chronology 18th Revision Released
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2014, 01:53:02 AM »
David, I am no more trying to jam his comments on the Leeds Golf Club as far back into 1901, than you and Duncan are trying to make them "after 1901"  ;)

I am going on Mackenzie's choice of words which were "on my return", which in normal English comprehension means pretty much straightaway. As he doesn't give us an exact date for this we can only interpret his choice of words.

I have not raised the Scott-Taylor material in relation to the timeline and if I recall it is you who has raised this a number of times now. 

The simple fact is that I included some supposition in the Chronology, which has subsequently been proven to be correct. This is not connected to the Scott-Taylor material despite you trying your best to link it. Im not going to debate your concerns about the veracity of that material here.

Duncan, "you couldn't possibly comment"? That hasn't stopped you before!

DMoriarty

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Re: The MacKenzie Chronology 18th Revision Released
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2014, 02:22:19 AM »
Neil, You again quote me as saying "after 1901."  Care to tell me where I ever said that?  And if I didn't, will you please stop putting words in my mouth?  Thanks.

Also Neil, you are the one who is linking in the Scott-Taylor nonsense.   Or if not, then what exactly did you mean by my supposed "hypothesis" which you mistakenly believe is driving my position?

You wrote:
"I am going on Mackenzie's choice of words which were "on my return", which in normal English comprehension means pretty much straightaway. As he doesn't give us an exact date for this we can only interpret his choice of words."

Well, I am not so sure that "on my return" written over three decades later is quite as equivocal as you suggest, and I am not so sure why would you insist it is so.   And I don't agree that "we can only interpret his choice of words."  In the alternative we could acknowledge that we don't know the date, and hold off on conjecture until we get more solid information as to when he made his suggestions.  
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 02:24:38 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The MacKenzie Chronology 18th Revision Released
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2014, 02:58:10 AM »
David, both you and Duncan have brought up the Scott-Taylor material repeatedly. It was not mentioned by me until you started harping on it. I have seen a lot more of this material than you have made your judgements upon and I am not so ready to dismiss it as 'nonsense' as you seem to be. That's it for me.

DMoriarty

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Re: The MacKenzie Chronology 18th Revision Released
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2014, 03:35:43 AM »
Actually Neil, it wasn't me who brought up the Scott-Taylor material, and I have hardly been harping on it.  After you mentioned it, I did ask you why Ian Scott-Taylor was listed as a contributor, and you acknowledged that was an error on your part, while at the same time coming after me for even asking.

The next time it came up from me was after you accused me of pushing a "post 1901" date to support my supposed hypothesis, by which you were referring to my views on the Scott-Taylor material.  Of course I never said anything about 1901.  

I don't blame you for not wanting to discuss the whole fiasco, as it seems to have you quite on edge.  And understandably so.  But if you really don't want to get into it here, then perhaps you should refrain from the bluster about how much you've seen, and how much I haven't.  

Or, if you'd like to discuss it, I do have some questions.  
« Last Edit: September 26, 2014, 12:41:08 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: The MacKenzie Chronology 18th Revision Released
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2014, 03:04:27 PM »
Neil, I will definitely give it a shot.

Russ have fun.

In my attempt to pin his time in St Andrews down I looked for information on the starter Grieg referred to on page 11.

http://www.golfing-tees.com/family-golfing/andrew-lamb-greig-golf-starter-at-the-old-course-in-st-andrews-1894-1915/

No help at all. ;)
Let's make GCA grate again!