Cape Wickham Opening

[Ash Towe]

According to their latest update on the website:

Preview rounds 1 March to 30 June  2015
$95 per round or $125 for unlimited play

Official Opening 1 November 2015
$145 per round or $175 for unlimited daily golf

Accomodation available  on site from 1 November.  No prices given.

Dollars I presume are $A

[Scott Weersing]

This is the first I have heard of this course.

I was impressed with the pre and post construction photos:

http://capewickham.com.au/construction-news/hole-by-hole-progress/

Where can I learn about the designer and plan?

[Ally Mcintosh]

The four courses built since the turn of the century that I think I would like best (and haven't seen) are as follows:

Cabot Links
Cape Wickham
Barnbougle Dunes
Dismal Red

These trump:

Bandon Dunes resort
Streamsong resort
Cabot Cliffs
Cape Kidnappers

...not to mention the hundreds of courses that don't fall in to the Doak / C&C axis of neo-classicism...

I'm not sure why - They all seem just a little simpler and more old-school... I could be completely wrong...

Anyway, that's a roundabout way of saying I love the look of Cape Wickham.

[Buck Wolter]

This is the first I have heard of this course.

I was impressed with the pre and post construction photos:

http://capewickham.com.au/construction-news/hole-by-hole-progress/

Where can I learn about the designer and plan?

Scott- There's been quite a bit of discussion about the Mike DeVries design - a little harder to get bulldozer sniffers to make the trip for reports from the site.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59242.0.html

http://capewickham.com.au/the-course/ownership-and-the-development-team/

[Howard Riefs]

This is the first I have heard of this course.

I was impressed with the pre and post construction photos:

http://capewickham.com.au/construction-news/hole-by-hole-progress/

Where can I learn about the designer and plan?

Scott- There's been quite a bit of discussion about the Mike DeVries design - a little harder to get bulldozer sniffers to make the trip for reports from the site.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59242.0.html

http://capewickham.com.au/the-course/ownership-and-the-development-team/

A few more...

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59242.0.html

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56241.0.html

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58086.0.html

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,58650.0.html

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,55942.0.html

[Tom_Doak]

The four courses built since the turn of the century that I think I would like best (and haven't seen) are as follows:

Cabot Links
Cape Wickham
Barnbougle Dunes
Dismal Red

These trump:

Bandon Dunes resort
Streamsong resort
Cabot Cliffs
Cape Kidnappers

...not to mention the hundreds of courses that don't fall in to the Doak / C&C axis of neo-classicism...

I'm not sure why - They all seem just a little simpler and more old-school... I could be completely wrong...

Well, Barnbougle and Dismal are the two lowest-budget courses I've done in the past 15 years.  [I think Ballyneal was third-lowest.]  Perhaps I should just under-staff all my jobs in a similar vein so they don't come out so polished?

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom - I think you were joking (at least in part), but when I was working on television programs (like golf course design-construction, a collaborative endeavour) I found the downside for me was that, with so many people/sets of eyes involved, nothing unexpected or out of the ordinary had any chance of even breathing, let alone of coming to life. No so-callled "crack" in either the foundation or the structure itself went unnoticed, and not a single one was left un-filled (all in the name of "doing it right", and driven by the desire that each person had to, in the positive sense, "contribute to the process" and in the negative sense "save the day").  

What did we get in the end? A perfectly polished, perfectly constructed, "piece of work" -- just what the producer and the client wanted, but for me almost completely devoid of the originality and personality and individuality of a living, breathing document. As I've mentioned before, I admire your ability to walk that knife edge between satisfying the client and satisfying yourself, between your duty to sustaining the business and your duty to the art-craft of gca at its highest level. I wasn't able even to figure out that knife-edge, let alone walk it.  

We of course discuss archuitects past and present all the time around here, but this ability -- and even before that, the desire/intention --to identify and then consistently walk that knife-edge plays, I believe, a greater role in the nature and quality of an architect's overall body of work than anything else, including the quality and nature of the sites he/she has had to work with.

I don't know how Mike D works, but if he is getting that "simpler" and raw-ish look as Ally suggests then he is doing many things right, including probably not doing too much! My knowledge of the subject is limited, and I can't even begin to guess "what might've been", but when i think back to the golden age, the only course that strikes me as having been truly enhanced by the "all the bases covered' and "micro-managing" approach was NGLA.

Peter

[JMEvensky]

My knowldge of the subject is limited, and I can't even begin to guess "what might've been", but when i think back to the golden age, the only course that strikes me as having been truly enhanced by the "all the bases covered' and "micro-managing" approach
was NGLA.

Peter

As you,I'm out of my depth on the "what might've been" part. But I think I differ with you on the "all the bases covered" and "micro managing" issues.

For me,they're opposites. I always take the former to imply a lot of/several peoples' involvement while the latter implies a single person.

I'd probably be happy with a single talented person "micro managing"  my golf course over a number of years but not so happy with a committee "covering all the bases". Basically,the benevolent dictator vs. a well meaning Green Committee.

Apologies to those who came here to learn about Cape Wickham's opening.

[Josh Smith]

Hoping to see this place someday.  It just looks incredible.  Mike working on this type of land was something I only hoped would happen.  Can't wait to see my hope as a reality.  Way to go Mike.  WFC

Josh

[Mark_F]

Official Opening 1 November 2015
$145 per round or $175 for unlimited daily golf.

$145 per round.  It won't last a year.

[Tom_Doak]

Official Opening 1 November 2015
$145 per round or $175 for unlimited daily golf.

$145 per round.  It won't last a year.

I was surprised at the price as well.  Barnbougle and Lost Farm have been around $100 for years and afraid to push it any higher for fear they will lose their strong customer base.  If Cape Wickham can get $145 it will be great news for Richard Sattler.

[Mark_F]

I was surprised at the price as well.  Barnbougle and Lost Farm have been around $100 for years and afraid to push it any higher for fear they will lose their strong customer base.  If Cape Wickham can get $145 it will be great news for Richard Sattler.

Tom,

They will be cutting their prices within months.  King Island is more difficult to get to, more expensive to get to and extremely windy.  There won't be too many people battling it out to play 36 in a day, and there will be many people who book a two or three day stay and play once due to the weather.

Darius obviously thinks having his name attached to the project is worth $45 more than yours. 

[David_Elvins]

Tom,

They will be cutting their prices within months.  King Island is more difficult to get to, more expensive to get to and extremely windy.  There won't be too many people battling it out to play 36 in a day, and there will be many people who book a two or three day stay and play once due to the weather.

Mark,

Duncan Andrews is one of the most successful golf course developers in Australia.  I would suggest that he has a well thought out plan for getting a return on his investment. 

[Mark_F]

The Dunes and 13th Beach are a vastly different proposition to Cape Wickham, David.

I'm surprised you can't see that.

[Tom_Doak]

Mark,

Duncan Andrews is one of the most successful golf course developers in Australia.  I would suggest that he has a well thought out plan for getting a return on his investment. 

Yes, but the green fee at The Dunes is $65 midweek and $89 on weekends, even in the high season.  That's one of the numbers that has scared Barnbougle into going any higher.  In the U.S. both would be $150 or $200, but there is nobody in Australia getting that sort of money for daily fee golf.  I hope Cape Wickham is a great success, as a rising tide lifts all boats ... but trying to reset the market price for golf is not easy in any environment, no matter how good the course.

[David_Elvins]

Yes, but the green fee at The Dunes is $65 midweek and $89 on weekends, even in the high season.  That's one of the numbers that has scared Barnbougle into going any higher.  In the U.S. both would be $150 or $200, but there is nobody in Australia getting that sort of money for daily fee golf.  I hope Cape Wickham is a great success, as a rising tide lifts all boats ... but trying to reset the market price for golf is not easy in any environment, no matter how good the course.

Tom,

Do you really think there is a 'market price' for high end golf?  Surely there is more than one way to skin a cat and make the numbers work?  The Dunes works not because it is perfectly priced, but because Duncan Andrews took a chance with a relatively unique product in a new market and developed a great product at a presumably good cost before the market became saturated.  He did likewise at 13th Beach.

It is a brave man, IMO to bet against him repeating the dose on King Island.

PS Hypothetically what is a better green fee if you want a World Top 50 ranking, $90 or $150?

PPS  $150 green fees do exist in Australia.  Hope Island and Jondalup both charge $150 a round in markets saturated with cheaper courses, although Hope Island did get a generous review from Ran.  Golf tourists also pay about  $200 a round at most highly ranked private clubs.

[Tom_Doak]

Yes, but the green fee at The Dunes is $65 midweek and $89 on weekends, even in the high season.  That's one of the numbers that has scared Barnbougle into going any higher.  In the U.S. both would be $150 or $200, but there is nobody in Australia getting that sort of money for daily fee golf.  I hope Cape Wickham is a great success, as a rising tide lifts all boats ... but trying to reset the market price for golf is not easy in any environment, no matter how good the course.

Tom,

Do you really think there is a 'market price' for high end golf?  Surely there is more than one way to skin a cat and make the numbers work?  The Dunes works not because it is perfectly priced, but because Duncan Andrews took a chance with a relatively unique product in a new market and developed a great product at a presumably good cost before the market became saturated.  He did likewise at 13th Beach.

It is a brave man, IMO to bet against him repeating the dose on King Island.

PS Hypothetically what is a better green fee if you want a World Top 50 ranking, $90 or $150?

PPS  $150 green fees do exist in Australia.  Hope Island and Jondalup both charge $150 a round in markets saturated with cheaper courses, although Hope Island did get a generous review from Ran.  Golf tourists also pay about  $200 a round at most highly ranked private clubs.

David:

I don't mean to thread-jack here.  I know there are plenty of courses in the Sand Belt that get $$$ for visitor rounds, but in limited quantities.  The key question is whether you think a course on King Island can charge 50% more than Barnbougle/Lost Farm and still steal rounds away from them, or whether they will count on Barnbougle upping the green fee to match theirs.

PS  To your hypothetical, there are snobs everywhere, but Barnbougle got the World Top 50 ranking with the $99 green fee, so I don't think it's a detriment for those purposes.

[Ronald Montesano]

what is it they say about opinions and assholes?

[Michael Goldstein]

This discussion on green fee is a little strange as it ignores the travel costs.

In terms of the market, Tom I'd say Queenstown is a competitor destination for Sydney / Melbourne and you know the prices there so I wouldn't say that 145 and 175 day rate is resetting it.

 

[Richard Chamberlain]

Does the green fee include a cheese platter ?

[Neil_Crafter]

Dickie with those prices I'd say it includes your very own King Island dairy cow :-)

[RJ_Daley]

I'd love to know the breakdown of BD/LF regarding how many rounds are played by the international visitor on a bucketlist journey VS the native Australians with further breakdown of how many residents of Tasmania rounds are played.  It seems to me that the prices for green fee are set to rely on the internal golfers of Australia primarily, with the international traveler second in need to comprise the market of players supporting the enterprise.

But it also seems to me that BB/LF has a secondary benefit of residents of Tasmania being able to drive there on weekends and such.  How many rounds are strictly Tasmanian resident rounds?  BB/LF is certainly close to Launceston and half day accessible by car for Hobart.  This will not be so with King Island, obviously.  I was pleasantly surprised at the internal flight fares to Launceston and Hobart in comparison to our U.S. flights of similar distance.  I wonder if King Island airport currently accommodates jets of 737 size or Eberaer 170ish capacities, or strictly confined to the prop jet size of the field at BB/LF? 

I'm sure bright minds have taken all this into consideration.... 

[Daryl David]

Three airlines service King Island. Sharp Airlines uses a 19 seat Fairchild Metroliner with daily flights from 2 airports on Tasmania.  King Island Air uses an 18 seater and flys 12 times a week from Melbourne. Rex Air uses a 34 seat Saab 340 and flies from Melbourne daily.  Plenty of ways to get there and easy to combine with a Barnbougle trip.

[Mark_F]

Three airlines service King Island. Sharp Airlines uses a 19 seat Fairchild Metroliner with daily flights from 2 airports on Tasmania.  King Island Air uses an 18 seater and flys 12 times a week from Melbourne. Rex Air uses a 34 seat Saab 340 and flies from Melbourne daily.  Plenty of ways to get there and easy to combine with a Barnbougle trip.

King Island air fly the most to King Island but in a 9 seater Chieftain and only occasionally in the bigger plane.  Their airfares are close to $400 return, and golf clubs are not included as part of the baggage allowance. They are charged at $8.00 per kg, so that's another $100 plus each way.

Golf clubs are included as part of a 15kg allowance with Rex, who fly there once per day.  $7.70 per kg over that limit. So $200 each way, but non-refundable, so if the weather forecast is off, you either go or lose it.  Airfares are closer to $700 return if you want the refundable option.

Add car hire and one night accommodation if you take the Rex option, and you are up for about $900 depending upon accommodation costs, for two rounds of golf. Only works out a little less if you fly King Island air and leave first thing in the morning and play 36 then return the same day.

That is a very limited market to aim for.  It will be once and done for most people. 

[Mark Pavy]

Therefore, the argument that the green fees are too expensive is irrelevant, as the majority of the costs are getting there in the first place.