Cherry Hills holding its own

[Chris DeToro]

For a course that many deemed to be too short, especially in the elevation, scoring was up yesterday at the BMW.  Many said the course was a bit firmer than they're used to, but driver was taken out of the hands of many of the players and the difficult greens really kept scores from going too low. 

I am glad to see this great classic course hold its own and maintain relevancy in today's game and view it as another example of how a course can be difficult without simply lengthening it

[Mark McKeever]

It held its own at the US Amateur also.

Mark

[Jason Thurman]

What architectural factors are allowing it to hold its own despite a lack of length? I would watch and try to draw my own conclusions, but it's my anniversary weekend and also NFL opening week, which makes this an especially busy few days for me considering that I'm the Assistant Director of Pro Personnel for my wife's fantasy team. I won't likely be watching even 30 seconds of coverage.

[Adam Clayman]

How it's defending is important. Lush thick long rough. Along with Trees, choking any freedom, makes it look like their vying for a USGA nod to hold a u.s. open. This doesn't make for exciting sport. Sure the game might end up being close, generating excitement that way, but, it will likely be the guy that holds on, through the 71st hole, that will be crowned.

[Matthew Petersen]

There are a few factors keeping it tough.

First is that those greens are tough. They're sort of the opposite of most greens the Tour plays on, where if you get it on the right level/section you have a pretty flat putt. No flat putts on the small, extremely sloped greens at CHCC.

Second, it has been lengthened. That new 8th hole Doak's team built is 276 yards! #15 is 247 yards. Converting the members par 5 18th to a par 4 is nothing new, but #5 is also playing as a par 4 this week ... 526 yards of dogleg with a fronting bunker. These holes help to counteract some of the obvious scoring holes, like #1 and #3 which are drivable par 4s.

Third, the altitude and dry air does help guys hit the ball farther, but this is not always a blessing. It gets really tricky to try to dial in a pitching wedge from 180, as you try to factor in not only all the normal stuff that comes with hitting an approach (lie, wind, where to land it) but also try to factor in the altitude, which doesn't affect every shot consistently. Higher lofted shots don't get up in the air as quick, lower shots don't get the same increase in distance, etc.

And then there's the setup. The rough is very penal. It's not what most of here are fans of, but that's just what the classic courses are going to do to defend themselves. For what its worth, I'll say that yesterday sort of put the lie to the common contention that heavy rough only ever means one recovery shot option. Just around the first green, guys were trying flops, chunk and runs, hybrids, chips, basically everything but putting.

The course was also quite firm yesterday, which is pretty typical for this time of year in Colorado. My understanding is they got quite a bit of rain last night. CHCC drains well and Colorado generally is a place that can dry out quickly, plus the limited field means guys don't tee off early in the morning, but if the course is softer it will be interesting to see if more guys go lower today. I think some will. There were better scores than 67 out there yesterday. But all the other factors discussed above should still keep anyone from going really deep.

[Tim_Cronin]

Matthew sums it up quite well. Thursrday's tee-to-pin length was 7,301 yards. Using the 10 percent method, that's 6,571 yards at sea level.

Only two of the 69 players were able to drive the first green – which is to say, hold it – because it was so hard. You had to land the ball 25 yards short of the green to have a shot. Only two managed to do so.

The half-inch of rain overnight will do what it usually does, making the greens a bit more receptive, and also make the fairways less fast. They were very fast Thursday.

Those who revel in the lore of Palmer's 1960 feat and are curious of the players views on the course may want to peruse my piece on the fun first round, which starts with the action at the first hole: www.illinoisgolfer,net

[James Brown]

Cherry Hills is all about the greens.  When they are firm, the course can hold up very well.  The altitude advantage is a wash, as people not from the mountains will deal with uncertainties all week. 

[Chris DeToro]

I watched quite a bit of the coverage yesterday and read most of the reports from the players coming in and it seems as though the greens are what's keeping scores from going too low.  Yes, the greens are firm but I didn't hear major complaining coming from the players.  But I didn't see a lot of putts being made.  Seems to be that the contours in the greens are making it difficult to make putts

[Tom_Doak]

Seems to be that the contours in the greens are making it difficult to make putts

That is really always what keeps scoring from getting out of hand in the majors and other events on classic courses ... the greens have much more contour than what the players are used to seeing from week to week on Tour.  Most of the courses they play now are all designed to have hole locations on 2% slopes, and there aren't many of those at Cherry Hills.  You have to be below the hole to score, and the difference in altitude makes it tricky to stay below the hole. 

That said, it will get a lot easier for them if the rain softens the greens.

[Stephen Davis]

I don't know about Denver, but it rained from about 6pm-9am down here in Colorado Springs. I would imagine the greens will be much more receptive today. So far the tournament has been quite enjoyable to watch.

[Jim Franklin]

Patrick Reed certainly looks like a top 5 player in the world and ready to kick butt in his first Ryder Cup. Nevermind, no he doesn't. Not sure why I picked him in my pool this week.

[Chris DeToro]

Receptivity of the greens should help the players better control the spots they were putting from, but it appeared to me that putts were still difficult to make, and in some cases, difficult to control speed (which the softer conditions will probably also help). 

Did anyone feel that the course was "tricked" up to prevent low scoring?  I certainly didn't get that feeling

[billb]

I was there on Thursday. The greens were definitely a major factor, not a lot of putts being made. There is a lot of movement in those greens, and there were numerous tough pin positions.
I didn't think the rough was that penal - players were hitting a variety of shots from the rough, both approach shots and around the greens and getting a lot of club on the ball.
There are some big ass trees, some of the driving areas are tight. Just about every player I watched (including Rory on #16 where he was lucky not to go in the water) had to deal with trees on approach shots.
#8 is a beast, played from the back tees yesterday - 276 yards. Does anyone know what other changes Doak made?
I live a couple miles from the course and I can tell you it rained a lot last night. It will be interesting to see how the course plays today.

[Tom_Doak]

Does anyone know what other changes Doak made?

Honestly, I shouldn't get too much credit for Cherry Hills.  Eric Iverson, who lives in Denver, is the one who wanted to do a job close to home, and represented us in most of our dealings with the club.

There were a lot of changes but not too many big ones.  I'm sure I'll forget a couple but here's what I remember:

Restored two greens by rebuilding from the ground up:  #3 and #13.
Moved the 8th hole about 60 yards to the north to relieve a bottleneck, which allowed #9 and #16 to become much longer.
Rebuilt all the bunkers and tees, including several other new back tees.
Restored center fairway bunker on #5.
Restored cross bunkers on #17, and removed trees behind the green.

We have removed some trees, but it is a very political process there and we have not gotten them to see the light [because there are too many trees blocking the light!].  Maybe one of these years they will listen, but I think they understand the views they would gain and are just reluctant to do anything that would make the course less tough.  Hosting tournaments means a lot to them.

[Forrest Richardson]

Tom D - From the photos I have seen, Eric did an admirable job. Looking forward to catching some of the coverage this weekend.

Re: The new No. 8, that move came via the master plan work done by Mark Fine a few years before Eric and Tom got involved. Mark's master plan was very comprehensive and took a faithful approach to the Wm Flynn design, recommending restoring as much as possible given the significant changes and tree growth that the club had become accustomed to seeing. After Mark finished his work the club debated what to do and it was pretty much well-known that there was a division among the powers-that-be. As I recall there was a push to try and hold on to the US Open, but that was not likely to happen unless the membership ponied up lots of $$$ to buy homes, tear them down and expand the yardage to well over 8,000. That "magic number" (it may even have been longer) was to compensate for the mile-high elevation. It was good that this did not happen because it would pretty much have been the end of a great course as nearly everything would have been significantly changed.

As it sometimes happens in the business of golf design, architects get replaced on projects. I do not suppose that will ever change, even though it is often difficult to understand all of the influences and what causes a club to carry out such a change. Fortunately in this case (...but, certainly not for Mark Fine!) the new blood was well suited for the work and helped take the course to a new and better level.

[Tim_Cronin]

I can't see a U.S. Open or a PGA Championship at Cherry Hills, simply because there isn't the room for the infrastructure that goes with it. The Western Open / BMW barely fits with all the corporate suites and skyscrapers built around the premises. And attendance has been limited to 27,000 a day.

Even overtreed – and it is that – the course is a major championship test, but where does everything else go? It's like Crooked Stick in that regard. Great course, too-small footprint.

[Forrest Richardson]

Merion handled it, but you are spot on with your observation. It is not in the USGA's best interest to hold an Open anywhere where it limits attendance. The Phoenix Open already claims the title "The Most Watched (in-person) Golf Event In the World."  Amazing that the USGA cannot claim that!!""

[Tim_Cronin]

The USGA used a nearby university and some private homes across Ardmore Ave. for hospitality, etc., at Merion, and limited attendance to 25,000.

Thursday night's half-inch rain in Denver caused a shuffling of parking lots. The biggest backup lot, at Mile High Stadium, was pressed into service. That won't be available if needed on Sunday. The Broncos and Colts have a taffy pull scheduled. Imagine if something similar happened for the final round of a U.S. Open.

If you want to end a drought, by the way, host a BMW / Western Open. The same thing happened at Bellerive in 2008 and Crooked Stick in 2012. And it wasn't an official tournament at Cog Hill if there wasn't one lightning delay.

[mike_beene]

Was 17 always an island green? If so, is it the oldest true island green?

[Tyler Kearns]

#8 is a beast, played from the back tees yesterday - 276 yards. Does anyone know what other changes Doak made?
I live a couple miles from the course and I can tell you it rained a lot last night. It will be interesting to see how the course plays today.

Bill,

I assume this hole was relocated and restored in the new location, which allowed the 9th and 16th to be lengthened considerably.  It does seem to interrupt the flow of the journey for those sadistic enough to play the very back tees, requiring a 150 yard walk backwards from 7 green (granted, only 85 yards for the most used 195 yard tee).

TK

[Mark_Fine]

Here is one example I've shown before of the evolution of #17.  The island green is not the oldest in the country.



As far as the idea of relocating the #8 green; the line of play had already been altered over the years and the green was sited in an area with lots of congestion.  Moving it allowed the green to be reoriented properly as well as adding about 50-60 yards or more of length to the hole.  It also allowed new back tees to be added to #9 and #16!  We felt the benefits of moving the #8 green out weighted the concern we had about having to rebuild it.  The walk back was bearable and few players would ever go all the way back.   We presented this in our Master Plan to the club and they agreed as did Tom Doak whose team as you know did the construction.  Eric loved the idea.

[JC Urbina]

Chris ,

I was out there today, Cherry Hills really looks good.  The weather helped the tour players hold the greens, the ball was checking up nicely this afternoon. If felt like a string of birdies by the leaders all happened late in the day.

Eric did a really good job out there, he should be commended. 

Mark, did your master plan document the changes that had  occurred over the last 50 years?  Who was responsible for the revisions on the third green prior to the latest work?  Was  Press Maxwell ever credited for any of the greens at CH.

[Sam Morrow]

The USGA used a nearby university and some private homes across Ardmore Ave. for hospitality, etc., at Merion, and limited attendance to 25,000.

Thursday night's half-inch rain in Denver caused a shuffling of parking lots. The biggest backup lot, at Mile High Stadium, was pressed into service. That won't be available if needed on Sunday. The Broncos and Colts have a taffy pull scheduled. Imagine if something similar happened for the final round of a U.S. Open.

If you want to end a drought, by the way, host a BMW / Western Open. The same thing happened at Bellerive in 2008 and Crooked Stick in 2012. And it wasn't an official tournament at Cog Hill if there wasn't one lightning delay.

How long is that drive? Isn't Cherry Hills a little ways south of downtown?

[Bill_McBride]

Wow, what a neutering of 17 between 1937 and 1963.  The loss of that Sahara or Hell cross bunkering is really depressing. 

[billb]

Tom/Mark/JC,

Regarding the first set of cross bunkers on #17 - did anyone expect those to be flown from the tee? JB Holmes did it yesterday, Bubba and a few others did it today. It is just crazy how far the boys hit the ball these days.

The new #3 green is awesome - I never would have guessed it is not original. I watched several groups hit drives all around the green and struggle big time with their chip shots - I did not see a single birdie.

Regarding a possible future major at Cherry Hills - I overheard a couple of members saying they are in the running for the 2011 PGA.

Certainly lower scores today, but 1/2 inch of rain and temperatures in the 70s is fall / monsoon weather for Denver. PGA time (early August) will see conditions like yesterday - and probably even harder and faster.