Does Doak Overdo Width?

[Sean_A]

I have seen one Doak course.  I would say the course isn't terribly narrow, but a bit narrow.  Narrow enough so that I consider some of the greens too harsh given what it takes to reach them.  I don't think there is an optimal approach angle on some holes.  I know the course wasn't designed to be this way, but I did find it instructive in terms of green contours.  I previously thought it was nearly impossible to have greens with too much movement given decent green speeds.  I now think the more (beyond considerations of wind, slope and firmness) contoured the greens the more width is needed to gain the best angles of approach which also means that more contoured greens need to larger than normal greens.  

Ciao

Sean, which course?

Chris

Renaissance.  I still thought the course was great, but too difficult for most if there is any wind or with quick greens.  I played with a few of the guys from the Doak team and one expressed serious disappointment with the lack of width more than once.  Needless to say there was mucho ball searching in what was generally harsh (expected in June) rough.  

In a way, I am very impressed with Doak because the course wasn't presented as it should be, yet I thought it was still great and to date the best first time course I have played this year and comfortably one of the best Scottish courses I have played.  The experience gives me encouragement to try another Doak.

Brent

As it happens Old Mac is very high on the Doak list, right there with Ballyneal and Apache.

Ciao

[Frank Pont]

With well designed and firm greens that are asymetrically defended there is no such thing as a fairway that is too wide, esspecially if the width is on the wrong side of the fairway.

The only limitation is the maintenance budget the club has to maintain fairway acreage.

[Brent Hutto]

I've not visited either Bandon to see Old Mac or St. Andrews to see The Old Course, for reasons having nothing to do with the inherent qualities of those particular courses. But there's not much doubt in my mind that large expanses of rumpled fairway turf and huge, tricky greens is pretty much my ideal of a golf course.

But it sure doesn't seem like a model that can be implemented just anywhere. And I suspect that attempts to capture that sort of quality in a more constrained setting with less ideal ground to work with are generally disappointing. There are a few inland USA courses I've played which might look a little like what we're talking about from a Google Earth view but in reality turn out to be 18 holes in a big old pasture somewhere where you can hit it where ever you like off the tee then hit it where ever you like onto a big green and that's that.

[Michael George]

I actually don't think width can be overdone.  In fact, except for cost reduction issues, I think rough has no place in the game...although I realize that it is a necessity at some point.   Rough simply limits the effect of the ground on the game, which is never good.

Isn't that the magic of St. Andrews - it never dictates the way that a hole is played, but the more that you play it, you realize that there are much better routes to the hole than others.

[Ed Brzezowski]

The new Dismal photographs suggest extreme width, not unlike Streamsong.  Even I only missed one fairway at Ballyneal a few years ago.  Thoughts?

Bogey

Michael:

I think we have overdone the width here and there, but not on the courses you mention.  When I saw Pinehurst #2 last year, I vowed to get the widths down on future projects.

Nobody has mentioned it so far, but it is crucial to consider width in the context of what the rough is like.  At places like Ballyneal and Dismal, the outside edge is native prairie grasses that we don't plan for the owner to maintain much or at all; and as someone just reported, this year those areas are pretty thick.  So we made the fairways VERY WIDE to compensate.  [I suppose some others would have grassed the corridors wide but left a good buffer of it as rough on either side to reduce mowing costs; we hate that esthetically, and between having the fairways in fescue and mowing everything at one height, we think the difference in maintenance cost is negligible.]

At Streamsong, off the grass is open sand and some thick native, more like Pinehurst.  There are holes that could have been narrower, but my associates are always looking for a good place visually to stop the fairway, and sometimes we went further than necessary there.  At Tara Iti in New Zealand, we have the same situation, and we've narrowed it up quite a bit, especially on the back nine [the first few holes were grassed prior to my seeing Pinehurst].

Years ago, I did lists of the widest courses I'd ever played [Royal Melbourne, Augusta, St. Andrews, NGLA, Kapalua, Pinehurst before the changes] and the narrowest [Marysville, Pine Bay, Olympic, Elk Ridge, Grand Haven, Boat of Garten].  That exercise led me to err on the side of too wide, rather than too narrow.  Most golfers [and most of my clients] prefer this, and so do I.  But, if they choose to narrow them up after the fact, as at The Renaissance Club, they certainly have the flexibility to do so.


Maybe you could do a book with those types of lists Tom? Just a marketing suggestion.

ed

[Chris DeToro]

I think width is a great equalizer of skill sets--for better or worse--if you're a strong driver of the ball, that strength is sort of mitigated at Old Mac since someone who's a bit more wayward can still score, whereas they would struggle on a course with more gunch off the fairway

[Sven Nilsen]

I think width is a great equalizer of skill sets--for better or worse--if you're a strong driver of the ball, that strength is sort of mitigated at Old Mac since someone who's a bit more wayward can still score, whereas they would struggle on a course with more gunch off the fairway

Interesting thought, but I find that OM places the greatest premium on finding the right spot in the fairway of any course at the resort.  Starting with the first hole, you have to work backwards from the day's pin position to set up your approach.  For example, if the pin is left, you want to be coming into the green from the extreme left side of the fairway to take the sharp falloff on that side of the green out of play.

This type of angle creation continues throughout the round, particularly at the 4th, 6th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 14th, 16th, 17th and 18th, almost always dictated by the location of the pin (something that is exacerbated by the size of the greens, and the fact you can have an almost 50 yard left to right variance in their placement). 

OM seems to reward distance and accuracy, at least in my humble opinion.

Sven

[Mac Plumart]

Isn't that the magic of St. Andrews - it never dictates the way that a hole is played, but the more that you play it, you realize that there are much better routes to the hole than others.

Precisely!!!  And many of those better routes are dictated by the strengths and/or weaknesses of your game.  Equifinality.  You can get the ball in the hole in the same, or better, score than your opponent and use different approaches/tactics.

[Sean_A]

Honestly, I don't think TOC is a good example of width anymore.  Some critical areas of the course have been slowly narrowed to the point where the course largely rides on the width of 1/18 for being a wide course.  To me, TOC is just normal width, nothing particularly special in this department.

Ciao

[Mac Plumart]

Honestly, I don't think TOC is a good example of width anymore.  Some critical areas of the course have been slowly narrowed to the point where the course largely rides on the width of 1/18 for being a wide course.  To me, TOC is just normal width, nothing particularly special in this department.

Ciao

What about the use of double fairways for added width?

[Matthew Rose]

Years ago, I did lists of the widest courses I'd ever played [Royal Melbourne, Augusta, St. Andrews, NGLA, Kapalua, Pinehurst before the changes] and the narrowest [Marysville, Pine Bay, Olympic, Elk Ridge, Grand Haven, Boat of Garten]. 

Pretty compelling group of courses in the wide category!

[Keith OHalloran]

Mac (or anyone really)
Can you give me some examples from Dismal Red where you gain a distinct advantage from hitting a certain spot in the fairway rather than just trying to hit it anywhere? I ask because I am playing it Monday with a non GCA reader, and I want some of the local secrets! 

[Mac Plumart]

15

Wheres the pin?  If you aren't driving the green and the pin is right...I wanna be left to have more green to work with.  Now, I have played it from just off the 16th green, but I don't recommend that far left.   



1

Same questions...where's the pin?  Can you make the green in two?  If not, lay up in the right spot.



I could literally go on and on...

6...you driving the green?  Pick your angle of attack to the pin.


Helpful hint...if it hasn't rained recently, don't attack the pin head on at 8...miss the green left...the ball will feed.

[Paul Gray]

I haven't played enough Doak courses to make a judgment, but maintenance cost seems to be the one element that never gets spoken of when it comes to width. It makes things more fun and strategic and can lend outstanding playing qualities, but it also means more maintained turf with more intensity of maintenance.

Art Hills' courses may not be especially fun or strategic and may not have outstanding playing qualities, but they are generally affordable and seemed to withstand the recession pretty well.

In other words, I'm echoing what Brent posted while I was writing this post.

A sad reflection on the state of the game.

Mention more short grass and people immediately think about manicuring.

[Brent Hutto]

Forget it.

[John Kavanaugh]

Width is affordable at the Red because of the combined genius of Mahaffey and Jagger Mandrell. Efficient irrigation and idealized mowing patterns cut to fit specialized machinery makes for a one of a kind solution.

[Sean_A]

Honestly, I don't think TOC is a good example of width anymore.  Some critical areas of the course have been slowly narrowed to the point where the course largely rides on the width of 1/18 for being a wide course.  To me, TOC is just normal width, nothing particularly special in this department.

Ciao

What about the use of double fairways for added width?

With the easiest holes (1, 18, 9 & 10) making up most of the double fairway action, a lot of the width in double fairways only works for longish hitters.  It seems to me that on some critical holes where width is important, ie 4, 7, 12, 14, 16, 17, there isn't all that much width or one has to be reasonably long to gain the width.  Holes like 13 and 15 are good examples of width helping out.  I honestly couldn't believe how much width had been lost on TOC on my last visit.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Width is affordable at the Red because of the combined genius of Mahaffey and Jagger Mandrell. Efficient irrigation and idealized mowing patterns cut to fit specialized machinery makes for a one of a kind solution.

No offense to Don and Jagger, but this is not a one of a kind solution.  Pacific Dunes, Barnbougle, Ballyneal, Old Macdonald, The Renaissance Club, and others before them [named above] all had efficient irrigation and idealized mowing and the one thing you left out -- fescue !! -- to make width affordable.  Streamsong does it pretty well on bermudagrass, too.

The one place where our width is not so affordable is at Sebonack.  When they opted to go with Colonial bent in the fairways instead of fescue, we should have reduced the width of the design, and especially all the short grass around the tees.  It's a great feature esthetically, but it costs a fortune there because of their maintenance standard and the need to spray it regularly.

[John Kavanaugh]

Do the other courses you mention use the same large gang mowers for cutting fairways?

[Tom_Doak]

Do the other courses you mention use the same large gang mowers for cutting fairways?

I think Barnbougle has some gang mowers.  We also used those at High Pointe way back when, haven't had anybody else take us up on it until Dismal.  But all those courses do have very large fairway units, and they cut everything at the same height, which is the reason it's so efficient.

[Bill_McBride]

Honestly, I don't think TOC is a good example of width anymore.  Some critical areas of the course have been slowly narrowed to the point where the course largely rides on the width of 1/18 for being a wide course.  To me, TOC is just normal width, nothing particularly special in this department.

Ciao

What about the use of double fairways for added width?

With the easiest holes (1, 18, 9 & 10) making up most of the double fairway action, a lot of the width in double fairways only works for longish hitters.  It seems to me that on some critical holes where width is important, ie 4, 7, 12, 14, 16, 17, there isn't all that much width or one has to be reasonably long to gain the width.  Holes like 13 and 15 are good examples of width helping out.  I honestly couldn't believe how much width had been lost on TOC on my last visit.

Ciao

Haven't been to St Andrews since 2008 so don't know for sure, but what I've heard about the rough left of the Principal's Nose makes me want to cry. 

[Don Mahaffey]

Width is affordable at the Red because of the combined genius of Mahaffey and Jagger Mandrell. Efficient irrigation and idealized mowing patterns cut to fit specialized machinery makes for a one of a kind solution.

No offense to Don and Jagger, but this is not a one of a kind solution.  Pacific Dunes, Barnbougle, Ballyneal, Old Macdonald, The Renaissance Club, and others before them [named above] all had efficient irrigation and idealized mowing and the one thing you left out -- fescue !! -- to make width affordable.  Streamsong does it pretty well on bermudagrass, too.

The one place where our width is not so affordable is at Sebonack.  When they opted to go with Colonial bent in the fairways instead of fescue, we should have reduced the width of the design, and especially all the short grass around the tees.  It's a great feature esthetically, but it costs a fortune there because of their maintenance standard and the need to spray it regularly.

Tom, it may not be one of a kind but it is damn rare.
Lets compare staff sizes and equipment fleets between Old Mac and DR. Throw in Streamsong as well.

[Lyndell Young]

I don't think so, for me I'm a pretty good player but on a tight course I seem too restricted. At Dismal I seemed to hit my Driver much better I think due to width. I think most golfers have similar results as me. Most players also come from playing tree lined or even worse housing lined fairways so the width I've seen on Doak courses is refreshing . Width also opens up vistas of contrasting grasses and land features which to me add to the playing experience. Also Options!

[Mike Bowen]

If someone could message me info on large fairway mowers or gang mowers it would be greatly appreciated.  Brands and models please.

[Mike Bowen]

Tom,

Would you care to elaborate on Pinehurst No. 2?