France Top 5

[David Davis]

Sitting in the Thalys on the way to Paris to pick up a few other GCA'ers to drink wine and eat baguettes and wondering for those that have played the top courses in France what your personal Top 5 are?

Our best estimate not having played them yet are:

Morfontaine
Les Bordes
St. Germaine
Chantilly
Fontainebleau

In no particular order, through I suspect Morfontaine is likely the top course in Continental Europe.

Any thoughts?

[Ally Mcintosh]

I was supposed to play Fontainebleau last month but had to bail.

I have a sneaky feeling that given a little bit of tree clearing, it is the most underrated course amongst the ones you mention.

[Adam Lawrence]

Lots would include Golf National. Cases could be made for Vidauban and Golf du Medoc. Hardelot Les Pins and Le Touquet La Mer are contenders too; in both cases the works currently under way will strengthen their claims.

[Cristian]

Morfontaine

Fontainebleau (After some tree clearing it would be top 100 in the world material)
St Germain (Is there a better course anywhere on flat terrain?)

Chantilly-Vineuil (not rated as high by me as by some others. I would have liked to play the original routing, which I suspect has built its reputation but the course had already been ruinovated when I was there, with some unimpressive new holes and one of the best holes on the original course lost to the other 18-hole layout).

For no. 5 one could choose between a bunch of great classics, each with setbacks, but also with some wonderful holes and architecture:
Hossegor-Chiberta-Hardelot (Simpson), or Le Touqet la mer (Colt). If one is into this, the inland links at le National may contend. I have not played Les Bordes, but after one look at the aerial I do not have any desire to do so in the future; After the renovation work by Frank Pont and his partner has been completed I would be surprised if La Mer does not take up no. 5 spot at least.

[David Davis]

Christian,

Les Bordes is a mystery to me as well to be honest. I'm excited to play it. For a long time, until taken over it was considered the best course in France and the best course in Continental Europe. It looks very modern to me, very American I believe so you never know I may just love it. ;-)

Interesting comments on the others.

Adam,

I've not played Golf du National but friends have, they liked it which is a good indication I won't ha ha...It's not a priority as it feels like another modern inland links type course like so many being built - read The Dutch, The International, Valley (Munich) etc. Kind of fun, possible to play championships there due to the ability to stretch it really long but otherwise a slog. Just a first impression without playing it. Probably not fair.

Ally,

Yes, I've heard the same. Luckily I packed my mini renegade chainsaw into my bag. (I only wish I had one, could think of other places closer to home to make very good use of it.)

[Tom Kelly]

Has anybody played Les Aisses?

I haven't been there myself but I've seen lots of photos and it looks interesting.

EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjpjOHEJPV4

[Ally Mcintosh]

Has anybody played Les Aisses?

I haven't been there myself but I've seen lots of photos and it looks interesting.

It does, doesn't it?... Lovely land and no containment mounding....

Excellent fly-through on their website

[Adam Lawrence]

Not far from Les Bordes either. Russell Talley's note about it on the top100golfcourses site makes it sound v interesting.

David/Brian et al - you need to sneak another round in while you're down that way.

[Scott Warren]

If there's one better than Morfy, I'll get on a plane from Sydney tonight.

[Stuart Hallett]

The thread is about the top 5 & I think you have them !
The top 5 have become well known on GCA thanks to a number of people, mainly Paul Turner, Noel Freeman & Ran.

However, there are a lot of very good, or potentially good golf courses in France, depends how fussy you are, or may I say, how snobbish you want to be. Colt & Simpson courses are all worth a visit, but many other courses may also surprise you.

There are some high profile works on some courses, and understated works on others, this does not mean that marketing is telling the whole truth. Some exciting projects are also in the pipeline with some big names.

Fontainebleau is underrated, as is the potential of similar sites like Rochefort. Links lovers can't ignore Granville, and purists can't ignore Chiberta or Hossegor. The list goes on ... Saint-Cloud, Biarritz, etc. etc.

[Tom_Doak]

Early returns from The Confidential Guide would have them in this order:

Morfontaine
Granville [based on only one vote]
St. Germain
Chantilly
Morfontaine (Valliere)

and a tie for 6th between Les Bordes, Fontainebleau and Chiberta [all of these at a 6 on the Doak scale].

I have only seen Morfontaine [and not the Valliere], Chantilly and Chiberta, so the relative order may change before publication.

[Keith Durrant]

Wish i could play here every day:

[Paul Gray]

Vidauban? Really? I've only ever driven passed it but it doesn't exactly look compelling.

[John Mayhugh]

David,
I haven't played Les Bordes so cannot comment on it.  I think Hardelot Les Pins and Le Touquet La Mer are both better than either Chantilly Vineuil or Fontainebleau.  Those two have potential, but it's the two Pas-de-Calais courses that are actively restoring & improving. 

Scott,
Saint-Germain is a legitimate challenger to Morfontaine as top course in France.  Throw in the Valliere nine, though, and Morfy is clearly the top destination.

[Adam Lawrence]

Vidauban? Really? I've only ever driven passed it but it doesn't exactly look compelling.

Plenty of issues but it is a glorious spot. The super-exclusiveness adds to its allure I'm sure, but it is routinely listed in France's top 10. Sixth on Top100 fwiw.

[Frank Pont]

Early returns from The Confidential Guide would have them in this order:

Morfontaine
Granville [based on only one vote]
St. Germain
Chantilly
Morfontaine (Valliere)

and a tie for 6th between Les Bordes, Fontainebleau and Chiberta [all of these at a 6 on the Doak scale].

I have only seen Morfontaine [and not the Valliere], Chantilly and Chiberta, so the relative order may change before publication.

That is a strange list Tom, especially Granville, it is a nice links course but too much important holes and details have been lost over time for it to be great. Also, IMO Fontainebleau has a lot more going for it than Chantilly (after they cut a lot of trees). I do not comment on Hardelot and Touquet because I am conflicted on those.

[Frank Pont]

What the heck, I'll try anyway (all courses current state, so not including potential)

1. Morfontaine
2. Fontainebleau
3. St. Germain
4. Hardelot
5. Chantilly
6. Le Touquet
7. Chiberta
8. Les Bordes
9. Granville
10 National

Paging Patrice for the French angle!

[Ulrich Mayring]

If you have played the Eden course, Scotscraig or Fanø, then you know how Granville should be rated. FWIW, I also put Royal North Devon in this group, although it is on a bit of a larger scale than the others. But it has some so-so holes as well.

I'm also surprised not to see Belle Dunes mentioned by anyone. Sure, it's not to everyone's taste, but I thought there should at least be some backers. I have it in the Le Touquet vicinity.

Ulrich

[Frank Pont]

I thought of Belle Dune as well, it has good bones, with the right changes it could be quite a good course. Not sure it is in the same class as Touquet, esspecially once the restoration work there is done

[Patrice Boissonnas]

My personal Top French courses (as they are now) would include Morfontaine, Saint-Germain, Hardelot and National.
With good restoration/renovation work, Fontainebleau and Chantilly would climb very high on the ladder, especially Fontainebleau which I agree might have world class potential.

[Patrice Boissonnas]

Tom, I fully agree with Frank about Granville which is a mix bag of great links holes with goofy par 3s (10 and 16) and rather bland new holes which I was told had been drawn on paper by Hawtree but built in house by the club for cost saving reasons.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Given the other interesting things to do in France, especially in Paris, what courses are worth playing for someone over from North America?  And where do you draw the line and say that my time in France is better spent enjoying Paris, or Bordeaux or wherever, as the golf experience is not appreciably better or more interesting than what one would get back home.

[Patrice Boissonnas]

On an more general note I would say there is a lot of good golf in France but too little great golf.
In my opinion, the best French golf are not as high in my personal ranking as the very best I have seen in GB and USA.
If I was apraising all golf courses in the world from 1 star to 5 stars, I am not sure I would give 5 stars to any French golf at the moment. 5 stars means spectacular site, perfect design, crisp maintenance and nice atmosphere altogether. I can't find that anywhere in France but that doesn't mean what we have is bad or couldn't be improved. My 5 stars probably only apply to the top 50 in the world...
On the other hand, France would have a significant proportions of 4 and 3 stars, some of which could propbably be upgraded to 5 and 4 given some appopriate work.
I agree with Stuart Hallett that France has more to sell than the usual 6/7 courses that are generally commented on GCA. It's up to us to help them reach their maximum potential and let everyone know how good they are.

[Patrice Boissonnas]

Given the other interesting things to do in France, especially in Paris, what courses are worth playing for someone over from North America?  And where do you draw the line and say that my time in France is better spent enjoying Paris, or Bordeaux or wherever, as the golf experience is not appreciably better or more interesting than what one would get back home.

Wayne,
if I was a first time traveler to France, I would certainly have other priorities than golf. But isn't it true for anywhere in the world? (excepting Scotland maybe...)
If you would like to mix tourism with golf then I suggest you focus on the Paris area (Morfontaine etc.) and the South West (Hossegor, Chiberta, Biarritz, Medoc...)

[John Mayhugh]

I'm also surprised not to see Belle Dunes mentioned by anyone. Sure, it's not to everyone's taste, but I thought there should at least be some backers. I have it in the Le Touquet vicinity.

Belle Dune seemed a bit too amateurish to me.  Good site with some excellent holes.  It also has trees in weird places and the bunkering wasn't very strong (either aesthetically or placement in some cases).