[Frank Pont]

Frank,

Agreed for the vintage Steel holes.
I actually like some of the bunker work they did at Chantilly.
Concerning Simpson bunker styles, what example would you give in France or Belgium as authentic ?

Stuart,

Almost no existing courses still have his style. Maybe Morfontaine main course and Valiere in several places, some spots in Spa and that is it. Patrice and I have tried to bring back the Simpson style bunkers at Hardelot based on old pictures we had of certain holes (eg hole 7).

The sad thing is that it is so obvious. Look at all the old pictures of bunkers at Simpson courses. Look at how Simpson sketched his bunkers, not once, but over and over, with his frilly edges. It's not nuclear physics......

[Stuart Hallett]

Frank,

I'm not so sure.
Take your site for example in the Expertise "Simpson" section. The sketches looked like frilly edges, but the photos a lot less so. I believe the difference is related to unmaintained bunker edges and the presence of rough grasses at the time ?
Certainly, some shapes have been lost, but not to that extent. If you look at the old photo of the 7th at Hardelot, it looks more like a semi-revetted edge, but far from being frilly. I have actually used semi-revetting at Chiberta for example, mainly for stability due to erosion and to create visual impact. The only difference is the maintenance which is more intense these days.

[Frank Pont]

Stuart,

lets go through this point by point.

First Simpson's sketches. Are you really not so sure he always drew AND always described frilly edges for his bunkers? If so I am very happy to post all his sketches I have and post all his text on how he wanted his bunkers edges. Sorry there cannot be any uncertainty about this.

Second the historic pictures. Some of them show frilly edges clearly, such as New Zealand, Berkshire and Spa, others such as Hardelot are more ragged. (In the case of Hardelot that might be because MacKenzie Ross was the man on the ground during construction. BTW we also use revetting in parts of the faces at Hardelot, but that doesn't exclude filly edges).  However, none of the old pictures look as simplified as most of the bunkers look on Simpson courses look right now.

If we combine both points, I think we can safely say that:

a. we know with great certainty how Simpson wanted his bunkers to look, and that
b. virtually nowhere do his bunkers now look like that anymore

[Stuart Hallett]

Frank,

No need to send sketches I have plenty myself thanks.
I agree that Simpson wanted rugged bunkers, but to what extent ? Was it because he knew rough grasses would surround the bunker, hence a realistic sketch ?
The examples of old photos you give on your site clearly shows a smoother line than you seem to suggest as normal. I would suggest that you add much more detail than actually existed. From memory, you have stated that Colt & Simpson bunkers should all be frilly edged, is that correct ?
I just don't think that everything is black & white, but it's not a matter of life or death.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Stuart, Frank,

Definitely interesting to look at that old photo of Hardelot 7 and see the revetted edges to the bunker... I think if you mix a little revetting on the clean sides with native grasses on the rough sides, you can still get quite a natural looking, frilly (but not cookie cutter) style of bunker....

A question to both of you (or any others building bunkers in sandy soils)... What other methods do you use to create bunker lips when you don't want them left with rough grasses and there is no depth of topsoil to create a stable lip / edge?... In the midst of experimenting at the moment but would love to hear others experiences...

Thanks,
Ally

[Frank Pont]

Stuart,

I will post the historic Simpson bunker pics I have tomorrow, a picture is worth more than a 1000 words.

You are right, I have stated, and will continue to state, that Simpson wanted his bunkers frilly edged. Because that is what he wrote and what he drew. In that respect I do not understand you comment: "but to what extent?". Its all there to be seen and read, unless you don't want to.

Lets not bring in Colt bunkers, completely different subject. Colt actually had three different styles of bunkering through his career.

[Stuart Hallett]

Frank,

Interpretation is the key to building what you see on paper or even from old photos. I do agree that photos are interesting, so that's great thanks.

I obviously misunderstood your take on Colt bunkering as I thought you disapproved of smooth edges generally speaking ? Which is why I mentioned it as we where on the subject of frilly/rugged edges. I've rebuilt hundreds of Colt bunkers so I may also have some idea on the subject. As you say, that's another subject, but it could have been relevant.

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Javier Arana's personal archive contains a couple of photos provided by Simpson in which he shows the type of bunkers he liked to build:

[/URL]



In addition to this, some of Arana's drawings include corrections by Simpson where he corrects the simple shapes with ragged edges. Simpson's comments are in red in the drawing below:

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()