Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)

[Joe Bausch]

I'm quite confident Park did Princess Anne:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57224.msg1333753.html#msg1333753

[BCowan]

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=12603.25;wap2

Here is a Park Jr thread I found looking for Info on Ashland GC in Ohio.  TMac says that Park did 9 of the holes there and that they have plans.  Haven't read through it all 

[Bret Lawrence]

Mungo:


Here is an obituary for Arthur D. Peterson to confirm he was in fact involved with Peterson, Sinclaire and Miller, Inc.



Peterson, Sinclaire and Miller Inc. also produced The Golf Course, which was a pamphlet sent out to any club interested in green keeping and construction information.  This pamphlet was published in conjunction with Carters Tested Seeds.  Tillinghast wrote several columns for this pamphlet sharing some of his course drawings and even some of his golf poetry. 


The editor of the magazine was R. O. Sinclaire.  The only name I can not tie down is Miller.  My only logical thought would be T. H. Riggs Miller was the Miller involved.  Sven added an article from June 1, 1916 that mentions T. H. Riggs Miller as the construction engineer for the Willie Park golf course in Goshen, NY.  That same month(June 1916), The Golf Course announced in a small paragraph on the first page: "The Publishers take this opportunity in announcing that Mr. T.H. Riggs Miller  is no longer associated with Peterson, Sinclaire, & Miller Inc."

[Mungo Park]

Bret, thanks that's an interesting obit. Seems as though Peterson was a key man in the American golf boom. I should like to know more about him - when was the obituary published?

Ben's earlier thread is interesting. In it Craig Disher asks if WP ever visited Ashdown Forest. I think he may have done, as I was sent a crumpled sepia picture of WP from Ashdown Forest minute book. Although the photo itself doesn't look as though it was taken there, it indicates that he might have visited - a bit circumstantial, I know. . . .

Mungo

[Bret Lawrence]

Mungo:


Pemberbrook is most likely a typo.  I believe they were referring to Tumble Brook which is in Bloomfield, CT, near Hartford.


Philmont CC has a North and a South course.  The North course at Philmont is attributed to Willie Park and the South course is attributed to John Reid with changes made by Hugh Wilson.


Do you have anymore information on Elm Terrace in West Haven, CT? I have never seen a reference to this course before and I am from CT.  There was an Elm Terrace Inn in Woodmont, CT which is right next to West Haven, but I can not find any information on the golf course.


Bret

[Bret Lawrence]

Mungo:


The Arthur D. Peterson obituary was in the March 1946 issue of Golfdom, retrieved from the Michigan State University Archives website.


Bret

[Tim Martin]

Mungo:


Pemberbrook is most likely a typo.  I believe they were referring to Tumble Brook which is in Bloomfield, CT, near Hartford.


Philmont CC has a North and a South course.  The North course at Philmont is attributed to Willie Park and the South course is attributed to John Reid with changes made by Hugh Wilson.


Do you have anymore information on Elm Terrace in West Haven, CT? I have never seen a reference to this course before and I am from CT.  There was an Elm Terrace Inn in Woodmont, CT which is right next to West Haven, but I can not find any information on the golf course.


Bret

Bret-Woodmont aka Woodmont by the Sea borders West Haven and is a section of Milford. I have never heard of any golf course in that area although it would have provided a prime site as it is right on LI Sound. I would be surprised if it was located in the aforementioned area. My curiosity is definitely piqued.

[Mungo Park]

All, It looks as though Pemberbrook is for deletion, unless anyone has some positive ID for it. There is a 'Penderbrook' but it was designed in 1980, and posthumous design was not as far as I know, a WP skill.
With regard to Elm Terrace, I have a feeling this came from Joe Bausch or Sven? but otherwise it might have been Tony Pioppi or Kyle Harris. It was before I was making a note of the attribution. I think it was indeed the Elm Terrace Inn, but I can't find the source at the moment. Can anyone help out?

Bret, thanks for the Peterson date - it would be good to build up a picture of the company, which seems to have been a driving force. I have an image of Carters Tested Seeds HQ in Raynes Park, UK. I wonder whether they moved to America or from it?

Here is my latest revision of the list, with those still in need of corroboration indicated by indents and / or questions (to follow via Ben I hope - I am still grappling with my unrecognizable avatar, whatever that is)

I am sure I have a Farmington CT reference for 1895 or 96, but cannot pin it down.
Is Ashland OH different from Ashland KY (Bellefonte) - I presume so?

Mungo

[BCowan]

Update on Page 10

[Sven Nilsen]

Mungo:


You have the Miami Beach Flamingo course on there twice.  I'd delete the first reference.


Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

With regard to Elm Terrace, I have a feeling this came from Joe Bausch or Sven? but otherwise it might have been Tony Pioppi or Kyle Harris. It was before I was making a note of the attribution. I think it was indeed the Elm Terrace Inn, but I can't find the source at the moment. Can anyone help out?

Pretty sure Elm Terrace didn't come from me, I don't have anything on a course by that name, and I don't have any courses in West Haven at all. 


Sven

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

218 77 St. Louis Amateur Athletic Association (St. Louis, MO) aka Tr?i?p?le? A CC 

Ben,

Thanks, never knew this was once a Willie Park. Triple A was a 9 hole private facility built within our main urban park, Forest Park. It had two sets of tees so you could play it twice and somewhat have a different 18 hole experience. Unlike the other 27 holes where the park went around the course, at Triple A you had  jogging and bike path crossings everywhere so you had to keep an eye out for pedestrians.

Its main claim to fame was it was the training ground for Judy Rankin, and Arthur Ashe for tennis.

It was re-designed by a Hale Irwin associate and now serves as our First Tee chapter. Short and quirky. It was nothing special before, though if it restored to Park's original design maybe it could have been better.

[Sven Nilsen]

218 77 St. Louis Amateur Athletic Association (St. Louis, MO) aka Tr?i?p?le? A CC 

Ben,

Thanks, never knew this was once a Willie Park. Triple A was a 9 hole private facility built within our main urban park, Forest Park. It had two sets of tees so you could play it twice and somewhat have a different 18 hole experience. Unlike the other 27 holes where the park went around the course, at Triple A you had  jogging and bike path crossings everywhere so you had to keep an eye out for pedestrians.

Its main claim to fame was it was the training ground for Judy Rankin, and Arthur Ashe for tennis.

It was re-designed by a Hale Irwin associate and now serves as our First Tee chapter. Short and quirky. It was nothing special before, though if it restored to Park's original design maybe it could have been better.

Ryan:


Of all the courses on the list, Triple A is probably the least likely to have been a Willie Park design.  The timing doesn't match, as he'd already returned to the UK.


Sven

[Bret Lawrence]

Mungo:


I found some information on Elm Terrace Country Club in West Haven, CT, including a map.  The course did not last long.  Advertisements as early as 1926 announced the course being converted to a housing development.  The 1934 aerial shows mostly open land with very little development at this point.  Here is the link: 
http://tinyurl.com/guj2dhk

[Sven Nilsen]

Mungo:


Here are the courses I'd remove from your list:


152 - Canton is the same as Hoosic-Whisick (aka Milton-Hoosick).
158 - Detroit - not sure what this is a reference to.
175 - Maidstone - Do we have a source for his work at Maidstone in 1895?  If not, the later date is the only one that should be noted.
188 - New Britain - You already have Shuttle Meadow on the list.
191 - Newport (RI) - I'd mark his involvement with a major asterisk, we don't have anything concrete yet saying he actually did work.
200 - Pemberbrook should definitely come off (as noted it is the same as Tumble Brook).
202 - Philmont (South) - he did the North course here.
218 - Triple A - Timing doesn't match up.


I'd like to see any source materials for nos. 156 (CC of Farmington), 157 (Defiance) and 216 (St. Andrews).

[Bret Lawrence]

The link in my last post is not working properly, here is the map of Elm Terrace in West Haven, CT:

[Sven Nilsen]

Bret:

Nice find.

Here's a Jan. 1922 Concrete Magazine blurb on Elm Terrace and Thompson noting he had plans for a course.

[Sven Nilsen]

It appears that Elm Terrace was around until at least 1941


From A Guide to Summer Recreation printed by the New Haven Council of Social Agencies dated 1941 -

[Bret Lawrence]

Sven,


Interesting find.  I must have been wrong.  I just looked on historicaerials.com and you can definitely make out a few greens on the 1949 aerial.  By 1951 (CT Library aerial) this land was turned into a development. 


However, looking at the 1934 aerial, I can not seem to make out any holes on this property.  I have even looked on the CT Library slides that are much clearer than historic aerials.  I have contacted the West Haven Historical Society, so I am waiting to hear back from them with more information.


Bret

[Mungo Park]

Bret, Sven - Interesting finds on Elm Terrace, which seems to confirm Joe's earlier find. I just wish I knew where I had come across it.

In response to Sven suggested 'omits', and to Niall's 'adds' from when I was away,

I have added the private course for Count Althann in Vienna, which apart from the Prater course is the only one I know about (p71, J Adams, The Parks of Musselburgh)
Versaille is already on the list as La Boulie aka 'Le Racing Club de France' (RCF)
Matlock Bath has been added, on the basis of a one line mention in J Adams (p 71/72) opened in 1903

Sven: -
I have left Newport in, as from your and Bret's refs WP seems to have visited and given his opinion - how much more seems uncertain, as it was shortly before he left for Scotland
WP had some early involvement at The Maidstone, with his brother John. The Minutes report in 1899 that it was decided to pay Willie and Jack Park $53.30 for their work. Willie was not in the country at that time, so precisely what his involvement was is unclear to me.
Canton omitted - doubles  up with Hoosie-Whisick
Detroit omitted - double with Pine Lake
New Britain omitted as a double with Shuttle Meadow
Pemberbrook omitted
Triple AAA is omitted as insufficiently safe
St Andrews - Mount Hope was discussed in previous posts and thought to be safe, I think?
also Farmington CC omitted . . . . not quite sure where it came from - or why. I shall track back my notes and re-instate if I can demonstrate the case.

Defiance in Defiance OH is listed by WP on the flyer of about 1922, shown on p130 of J Adams, so I shall leave it in, but I have nothing else on it, and I don't think it is there now.

I shall re-post the list after any further comments.

Mungo

[BCowan]

Mungo,

   I have played Defiance Kettering many times, It has been awhile.  My guess is Willie may have done only 9 holes.  I'll contact the club this spring and look in archives for that one.  I've been curious about that one as well.  Toledo CC is still a question mark.  TMac attributed Watson with that one.  The course has been altered so many times.  Pink Lake CC has basically no Park left in it.  I believe it was completely renovated post Automobile GC. 

[Bret Lawrence]

Here is an article from Golf Illustrated-May 1920 mentioning Willie Park at Canoe Brook.  As Sven mentioned earlier, this course was not built to Parks plans:



The second article is from The Salt Lake Tribune-December 18, 1910:

[Mungo Park]

Bret,
That's another interesting one - not because of what it says but because of what it doesn't. Killarney and Grantown I knew about - but what in Gloucestershire? Adrian Stiff or Alan Jackson may know. . . or John and Marie Llewellyn. Anyone have any ideas?

Mungo

[MCirba]

Regarding Maidstone, I used to have David Goddard's terrific little book, "The Maidstone Links" but I think I lent it to Tom Paul several years ago and forget to ask for it back.   These days both our respective memories are getting a little fuzzy.      

In any case, I recall that book did a pretty nice job in laying out the earliest days and where the original holes were located, such that my prior notes show Willie Tucker designing the original nine in 1896 and then Willie Park with prominent member Adrian Larkin in 1899 bringing the course to 18 holes.

However, doing some quick research I came across the following.   Perhaps others who have the Goddard book might be able to compare and contrast so that we can learn more about what those club minutes say about Willie Park's early role;

Yonkers Statesman, April 29th 1895




NY Evening Post, Feb 17th 1898




East Hampton (NY) Star, 1942

[Mungo Park]

Mike,
I never saw a copy of David Goddard's book - I should like to. I visited the Club with him as he was in the process of researching it; he was cursing the inevitable golf clubhouse fire, which had destroyed many of the records.

The date in The Maidstone Story is a curious one as in 1899 WP was in Britain, although John might have been on site. The Maidstone centennial history 'The Second Fifty Years' says, "In November 1897 the East Hampton Star announced that work was in progress on an eighteen hole golf course. The Golf committee selected William Park, Jr to plan the new course.". . . and again "When Willie came to East Hampton in 1897 to design the new course, he was accompanied by his brother John, who later returned in 1915 to become the second golf pro for Maidstone". I am guessing that John may have also stayed on to do the work in 1897, completing it in 1899 when he was also pro at the Essex County Country Club.

Most of the East Hampton Star article is taken verbatim from 'The First Fifty Years'.

Mungo