Willie Park Jr (Course Listings) and (Photo tours)

[Ryan Taylor]

Detroit (5 courses) - Meadowbrook, Pine Lake?, Cascade Hills?, Flint?, Red Run?

Meadowbrook- he did 6 holes or just 6 greens.  Pine Lake-not much left my friends say.  Flint- pretty much intact, have played once. Red Run is, a one or two new holes.  

Red Run GC was originally designed in 1914 by Bendelow and redesigned in 1916 by Park, Jr. Red Run has some fantastic false fronts that are on display when conditions are firm and fast - #1, #3, #7, #12, #14, #16 and #18.

Mr. Park, Jr. would hardly recognize Red Run, Pine Lake and Meadowbrook due to overplanting. Park, Jr. courses in particular seem to be overplanted more than most. Maybe we should investigate the reasons why?? One theory - because of the subtle nature of his designs superintendents / course committee members are more likely to rely on trees for defense. If a Park, Jr. golf course is not maintained firm and fast the brilliance is hard to experience and see.

I found this quote from The Game of Golf relevant, "Trees are never a fair hazard if at all near the line of play, as a well-hit shot may be completely spoiled by catching in the branches. An occasional wall or fence or stream of water or pond to be crossed cannot always be avoided, but I do not recommend the making of such hazards merely as hazards." - Willie Park, Jr.

[BCowan]

Mr. Park, Jr. would hardly recognize Red Run, Pine Lake and Meadowbrook due to overplanting. Park, Jr. courses in particular seem to be overplanted more than most. Maybe we should investigate the reasons why?? One theory - because of the subtle nature of his designs superintendents / course committee members are more likely to rely on trees for defense. If a Park, Jr. golf course is not maintained firm and fast the brilliance is hard to experience and see.

  Very good theory.  Will have to look further into this.  It is rather hard to maint. greens Firm when greens are running at 11-12 and they are surrounded by trees.  It would be great for firmness to be the defense rather than trees.  I agree completely with your last sentence. 

[Sven Nilsen]

One more for the list.

John Jacob Astor's private course in Rhinebeck, NY (Aug. 20, 1895 Los Angeles Herald).

[Mark Steffey]

Mark,

    I will make a note of that with a ?.  Thanks

Ben,

Park did lay out 9h at Indiana, PA - 6 of which remain today.  #s 5, 9 & 11 are as laid out by Park designed them.  the 10th was shortened ~30yds when a new shorter tee was created to build a putting green.  #12 had a new green built due to drainage issues and the tee was moved up when a new hole was put in behind it.  the 13th green was tightened to add greenside bunkers.  (thanks for ICC head pro Daniel Braun for this)

the holes that remain true to form are pretty neat.  5 & 11 are par 5s and 9 is a short 4 par.  each green is a treat to putt.  5 has two levels separated by a spine that runs right down the middle front to back.  11 had a pimple on the left side that has to be traveled.  and 9 has so much going on there is really no straight putt no matter how close one is.  i have seen many putts there roll off the front too with people putting from the back or the sides of the green.

[BCowan]

Thanks Mark, I updated it and made notes

Sven,

   Is John Jacob Astor's course NLE? 

[Sven Nilsen]

I have also seen passing references to Park having worked at Canoe Brook, Cherry Valley and Goshen.  Nothing concrete enough to look into further.

Some followup on Canoe Brook.  The North course dates back to 1902, and was significantly remodeled by Travis around 1916.  In the early 20's the club considered purchasing adjacent land for a new 18 hole course, and it was here that Park was involved.  My guess is that he was consulted on the suitability of the new land, and may have even done a routing.

For whatever reason, the club did not proceed with the new project until a few years later, at which point Alison was hired to design the South course (perhaps Park was unavailable at this point).  All of the greens on the South course were subsequently remodeled by Maj. R. A. Jones of Baltusrol.

So any design credit for Park at Canoe Brook would be "Design Only," if even that.

[Sven Nilsen]

May 1923 - Golf Illustrated



Ocean City and Pemberbrook (known by another name?) are news to me.  This also confirms Park's work in Lynchburg, a course he did a plan for but the project was completed by Fred Findlay later on.

Sven

[MCirba]

Sven,

Ocean City is today's Greate  Bay.  Mostly original Park to this day.

[GLawson]

Ben,

I didn't see Formby in the UK on your list.

Best,
Gordon

[BCowan]

Mr Lawson,

   Thanks, I updated.  

http://www.formbygolfclub.co.uk/formby-golf-club-experience/course-history-championship-links-formby-golf-club/


Sven,

   I put Canoe Brook North in with possible routing, thanks

[BCowan]

''Metacomet in RI is another Ross design that is actually the work of Willie Park-Jr''- TMac


''As for Metacomet, that's as pure a Ross as you'll find; I have the 1921 routing plan to prove it. I'm curous what Park's involvement might have been. I know some claim that other courses in R.I. owe their heritage elsewhere.''- Brad Klein

''Park advertised in the major golf magazines of the day that he designed Metacomet. He also listed it on a pamphlet of golf courses he designed (published in 1922-23). Park noted he did not oversee Metcomet's construction and it appears he was often reliant on others (like O.Smith and R.White) to construct his golf courses. In Rhode Island Ross (or the Ross organization) would have been a natural choice, perhaps they collaborated. Robert White is often credited for Shorehaven, but it was designed by Park''- T Mac

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,776.0.html


Has anyone played Metacomet?  thoughts?  It says that the club was founded in 1921.  Could of Willie designed it and Ross renovated a few holes? 

[Bret Lawrence]

Ben,


I have played Metacomet in Rhode Island and it definitely feels like a Ross course.  If you look in the Compilation of Routing Maps thread there is a Donald Ross layout dated 1925 for Metacomet.  Look under the reply numbered 469.


 I also have a Willie Park Jr. advertisement prior to 1925 that lists Metacomet as a Willie Park Jr. course.  Metacomet was founded in 1901, so they had a golf course for many years before Ross showed up.


As for Robert White at Shorehaven, I found an article in Golf Illustrated-October 1925 titled "Shorehaven-A Perfect Course in Record Time".  There is a four or five page story on the building of Shorehaven.  The article never mentions Willie Park Jr., but does include Robert White.  I am having trouble accessing articles on SEGL right now, otherwise I would post it for you.


I have seen several instances where New Canaan CC in Connecticut claims Willie Park Jr. designed nine holes for their club.  I didn't see New Canaan on your list on the first page.  I have always wondered what year Willie Park Jr. was at New Canaan?


Bret

[MCirba]

One of the things that makes nailing down Park's US work difficult is that a number of his courses were designed prior to WWI and built in the years after the war, often by others but based on Park's plans.   Off the top of my head in the PA and NJ area those include Schuylkill, Ashbourne (NLE), Greate Bay (formerly Ocean City), and Philmont North.

My buddy Joe Bausch is largely responsible for finding all of the above, often to the great surprise of the various clubs.

[Bret Lawrence]

Ben,


Regarding Metacomet, I recently looked at the Tufts Archive Online Exhibit, which includes all of the Donald Ross field drawings for Metacomet and a handwritten letter to the club. 


In the letter to the club, Ross mentions that he would use some of the greens "presently in use" and for that reason did not include working plans for a few of the green sites.


After reading the diagrams, it appears several of the holes were designed over a pre-existing golf course.  On the 5th hole diagram you can see the location of the present number 1 tee.  If you read the 10th hole diagram, you will notice Ross used the present number 1 green, leaving the back 60' as it is, with modifications to the front portion of the green.  If you connect the dots (old 1st tee, old 1st green) you can get a sense of how the old first hole played before this Ross design. 


There are many references in these plans to present bunkers, present tees and present greens.  Ross made many modifications to the golf course, but did mention using the present 13th, 15th and 16th greens. Coincidentally, these are the only holes that do not have additional green diagrams to accompany the hole diagram.


Neither the letter or individual plans are dated so I can not be sure if these plans are relating to reconstruction of an earlier Ross design or to a course that existed before Ross ever showed up on the property? If the plans are related to an earlier Willie Park Jr. design, there may still be some remnants of his course at Metacomet.



I also realized Country Club of New Canaan is on your list of Park courses. I am still curious which year Willie Park Jr. built nine holes for New Canaan?


Bret

[Pete Blaisdell]

Ben


  John Cain and Newport (NH) Golf Club are one and the same.

[BCowan]

Thanks for the posts.  I believe i made updates.  Joe Bausch, if you have any more photo tours I'm missing let me know. 

[Niall C]

Ben


I note you list Biggar as one of Park's courses in Scotland. I'd be interested to know what your source is as I think it was a David Adams design.


Niall

[BCowan]

http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-architects/willie-park-jr.html

Niall,

   Used this as a base.  Then I received info from other GCA Posters.  Mungo was nice enough to reach out to me today and is going to send ur side of the pond course listings.  The list I'm sure is far from accurate to the T.  It's a work in progress. 

[Niall C]

Ben


It looks to me that Park might have done the original course. According to club website the course moved a couple of times and indeed I think it was a nine holer up until 30 or 40 years ago (as usual, could be wrong). Pretty sure Adams did the original nine in the last move.


Look forward what Mungo has.


Niall

[MCirba]

Ben,

I came across info today where it appears the architect responsible for the current state of all 3 courses at Gullane was likely Willie Park Jr. 

The original 1884 18 hole course that existed prior to #2 was considerably different than #1 of today and by the time #3 was finished in 1910, also attributed to Park Jr, the #1 course was almost exactly as today.

[Bret Lawrence]

Ben


I recently came across an article from 1920 discussing 10 clubs in Canada that were associated with Willie Park Jr.  According to the article, Park had recently renovated and brought the courses up to date or built entirely new layouts for these clubs:


1.  Mount Bruno C.C. near Montreal
2.  Beaconsfield C.C. of Montreal
3.  Royal Montreal Golf Club
4.  St. Ann's near Montreal
5.  Whetlock C.C. of Halifax
6.  Winnipeg C.C.
7.  Ottawa C.C.
8.  Toronto C.C.
9.  Abitibi C.C.
10. Lake Minotaur C.C.


My knowledge of courses in Canada is very limited.   I see several of the courses in this article are already on your list, but there are a few not included.  I am not sure if these courses go by a different name today or if they no longer exist?


I also see your listing of Whitlock C.C. had some questions associated with it.  Maybe this listing for Whetlock in Halifax will help? 


Here is a link to the article (2nd column):


http://fultonhistory.com/highlighter/highlight-for-xml?uri=http%3A%2F%2Ffultonhistory.com%2FNewspapers%25206%2FNew%2520York%2520NY%2520Evening%2520Telegram%2FNew%2520York%2520NY%2520Evening%2520Telegram%25201920%2520Mar-%2520Apr%2520Grayscale%2FNew%2520York%2520NY%2520Evening%2520Telegram%25201920%2520Marl-%2520Apr%2520Grayscale%2520-%25201145.pdf&xml=http%3A%2F%2Ffultonhistory.com%2FdtSearch%2Fdtisapi6.dll%3Fcmd%3Dgetpdfhits%26u%3D4705463%26DocId%3D11838043%26Index%3DZ%253a%255cIndex%2520I%252dE%252dV%26HitCount%3D9%26hits%3D76%2B20e%2B254%2B255%2B427%2B442%2B47d%2B502%2Bede%2B%26SearchForm%3D%252fFulton%255fNew%255fform%252ehtml%26.pdf&openFirstHlPage=false


Bret

[Yannick Pilon]

I can't help but notice that Islesmere GC in Montreal has been removed from the list....


What is the reasoning behind this? I can't seem to find anything on that in the thread. Both Ian Andrew and I have woked there in the past and i beleive Ian had some strong evidence confirming the course has been designed by Park....


YP

[BCowan]

Yannick and rest,

   I'll have to get back to you on that. 

[Bret Lawrence]

Ben,


It appears that Willie Park did visit Shorehaven GC in East Norwalk, CT.  This article mentions Robert White laid out the Shorehaven GC course.  It goes on to say: "The holes are all laid out and are very much along the same line as those laid out by the expert Willie Park, who went over the course a year ago, but who has been incapicated since because of illness." 


Here is a link to the article from December 25, 1923:


https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1898&dat=19231225&id=kI0pAAAAIBAJ&sjid=vW0FAAAAIBAJ&pg=1929,4416499&hl=en

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

I just stumbled on this thread and forgive me for not reading all the posts. It's interesting and I'll get to it eventually.


As far as Tumble Brook in Bloomfield, Conn., which is listed as a 9-hole Park course, I think the first 18 was his design. In the Hartford Courant of Nov. 26, 1922, is a detailed story on the building of Tumble Brook including a photo of Park on site. The course is listed as 18 holes and gives yardages for each.The second  nine is officially listed as an Orrin Smith-William Mitchell design. Smith, from Connecticut, worked for Park and was construction superintendent for the nearby Shuttle Meadow, a Park design, in about 1916. The newspaper accounts of Tumble Brook that I have seen do not, as far as I can recall, list Smith as being on site. However, when you play the original 18 in order the yardages match up to the Hartford Courant article. (There is a third nine designed by George Fazio.) I also think the hole styles and especially the greens of the second 9 match Park's work. Some alterations have taken place over the years that have messed up one  hole, a par-4, and improved another that was originally and uphill, 90-degree dogleg par-4. If I can remember how to post articles, I'll do that here.