Open at Portrush

[Bill Gayne]

Summary of changes and approval at General Membership meeting.

http://www.irishgolfdesk.com/news-files/2014/8/30/royal-portrush-votes-yes-to-the-open-and-dunluce-changes-235-in-favour-just-2-against

[Tony_Muldoon]

I wonder if Dawson is hoping M&E will employ him next year?  He obviously fancies himself as a Golf Course Architect and Trump said he'd suggested M&E for Turnberry.  There's nothing like starting at the top.


Anyone know if his Job Description is available for inspection?

[Ally Mcintosh]

I am going to take a visit this October for a couple of days to spend some time with the two courses before they go under the knife.

It seems to me that given the opportunity to evaluate a classic course, many (most?) architects can't help themselves in advising more changes than are necessary or even desirable. I have seen too many plans for superfluous change to some very classic courses over the past year. Enough to be a little depressing. And although usually driven by committees wanting to make a difference, in each case the architect has taken it a few steps further in his recommended alterations.

Note I do not reference Portrush in the above sentences - I don't know the course well enough. Hence my planned visit.

[Adam Lawrence]

I wonder if Dawson is hoping M&E will employ him next year?  He obviously fancies himself as a Golf Course Architect and Trump said he'd suggested M&E for Turnberry.  There's nothing like starting at the top.


Anyone know if his Job Description is available for inspection?

FWIW Martin Ebert has been advising Turnberry for many years.

[Josh Stevens]

never played it, but gosh it looks a gorgeous piece of land from the air.  That faded khaki colour and all those crumples.   Like being on the moon

[Clyde Johnson]

Not sure why anyone would want to change that eighth into a two-tiered green?   

[Josh Stevens]

does it perhaps smack of the 17th at Birkdale.  a tad out of place?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Great news for Portrush and Northern Ireland.

235 - 2 was the vote in favour. Not great news for the minor head, perhaps some of you will learn that your opinions are not worth a ****. I expect if GCA.com would have been allowed to vote the margin would have been less convincing.

[Sean_A]

Great news for Portrush and Northern Ireland.

235 - 2 was the vote in favour. Not great news for the minor head, perhaps some of you will learn that your opinions are not worth a ****. I expect if GCA.com would have been allowed to vote the margin would have been less convincing.

Adrian

To be honest, I am far more concerned with the preservation the Valley Links. I am not sure what the final plans are, so I don't know how I would have hypothetically voted 

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

perhaps some of you will learn that your opinions are not worth a ****.

Classy.

[Cristian]

Not sure why anyone would want to change that eighth into a two-tiered green?   

+1
I thought the 8th was one of the most interesting holes on the property.

2-tiered certainly does not remind me of Colt. (Calling Frank Pont)

[Simon Holt]

What I find interesting is that this will be the course the members play when its finished.  According to an attendee of the meeting, the current 17 and 18 will be left as practise holes.  It sounds like the general consensus is that the new holes will fit in after 13 so there is the option of a two tee start from 1 and current 10.

Since the changes are now inevitable, at least the finished article will be for everyday play and not just for The Open every 10 years.

The new par 5 on the back 9 will be a beefy one; over 600 yards by all accounts.

[Thomas Dai]

Anyone know if RPGC actually 'own' The Valley course (and the adjacent par-3 course for that matter) and permit others, like Rathmore GC members and pay-n-play folk, the opportunity to play over it or is The Valley/par-3 course actually owned by the local municipal authority?

I'd be somewhat peeved if I was a Rathmore GC member or pay-n-play player and found that the lovely Valley course that I'd been playing on for decades was going to be changed and that some of it was now going to effectively 'disappear' and be incorporated into the private RPGC-Dunluce course.

Just curious.

atb

[Rob Marshall]

Seems a little extreme to me to make all those changes to  a classic course. I played it last year and I did think that 17 and  18 were pretty anticlimactic, but completely replace them? I also played the Valley and loved it.  Neat little fun course. Had pint with a member who's Parents have a house on the Dunluce.  Gave us some history of the course and tales of Darren, Graeme, and Rory.  Would love to go back.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Seems a little extreme to me to make all those changes to  a classic course. I played it last year and I did think that 17 and  18 were pretty anticlimactic, but completely replace them? I also played the Valley and loved it.  Neat little fun course. Had pint with a member who's Parents have a house on the Dunluce.  Gave us some history of the course and tales of Darren, Graeme, and Rory.  Would love to go back.

Seems absolute common sense to me and 235 - 2 was the vote. What is more unbelievable is you thought 17 and 18 were pretty anticlimatic.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Anyone know if RPGC actually 'own' The Valley course (and the adjacent par-3 course for that matter) and permit others, like Rathmore GC members and pay-n-play folk, the opportunity to play over it or is The Valley/par-3 course actually owned by the local municipal authority?

I'd be somewhat peeved if I was a Rathmore GC member or pay-n-play player and found that the lovely Valley course that I'd been playing on for decades was going to be changed and that some of it was now going to effectively 'disappear' and be incorporated into the private RPGC-Dunluce course.

Just curious.

atb

97.2648% sure it's all owned by RPGC.   Ramore is a lovely Club who have (limited) rights to play on The Valley and can play Dunluce once a month (83.276% sure of that one).  To be a member I think you have to live in Portrush (area) (89.443%).  An undisclosed but "significant" percentage of RPGC members primarily reside in Belfast.



At least until he bought a gaff in Florida, their Weekend Medal  was regularly won by a Mr G McDowell.  What ever he wins for that would sit very nicely beside the replica  US Open trophy that he keeps 71.63%/(kept 100%) in the Ramore silverware display case.

[Rob Marshall]

Seems a little extreme to me to make all those changes to  a classic course. I played it last year and I did think that 17 and  18 were pretty anticlimactic, but completely replace them? I also played the Valley and loved it.  Neat little fun course. Had pint with a member who's Parents have a house on the Dunluce.  Gave us some history of the course and tales of Darren, Graeme, and Rory.  Would love to go back.

Seems absolute common sense to me and 235 - 2 was the vote. What is more unbelievable is you thought 17 and 18 were pretty anticlimatic.

I just don't see the need for extreme changes to a course that is fantastic. Voting to have to the tournament is a no brainer. Like the president of the club said the two no voters must have been joking. 17 and 18 were the two weakest holes on the course IMO. If they were two of the best why would they be talking about replacing them for the championship? Just for tents? After getting the crap kicked out of me from the 5th hole to 16th. 17 and 18 were a welcome relief but I wouldn't build two new holes to replace them.

[Paul Gray]

Not sure why anyone would want to change that eighth into a two-tiered green?   

+1
I thought the 8th was one of the most interesting holes on the property.

2-tiered certainly does not remind me of Colt. (Calling Frank Pont)

I'm afraid the humility required to leave well alone is not a quality the R&A are looking for. Better to tamper than to consider the notion that a guy 100 years ago might just have known his stuff better than anyone around today.

[Frank Pont]

I'm afraid the humility required to leave well alone is not a quality the R&A are looking for. Better to tamper than to consider the notion that a guy 100 years ago might just have known his stuff better than anyone around today.

Lets just be glad the R&A brass are not the custodians of the old Dutch master pieces hanging in the Rijksmuseum.

[Frank Pont]

Not sure why anyone would want to change that eighth into a two-tiered green?   

+1
I thought the 8th was one of the most interesting holes on the property.

2-tiered certainly does not remind me of Colt. (Calling Frank Pont)

Two tiered greens are very rare for Colt but do exist, eg the second at Tandridge and B5 at Kennemer. The famous par 3 at St. Cloud also has two tiers.

Usually they are used when the green is on a severe (side) slope where a tiered green was necessary to build a green without massive eartmoving.

[Thomas Dai]

Anyone know if RPGC actually 'own' The Valley course (and the adjacent par-3 course for that matter) and permit others, like Rathmore GC members and pay-n-play folk, the opportunity to play over it or is The Valley/par-3 course actually owned by the local municipal authority?
I'd be somewhat peeved if I was a Rathmore GC member or pay-n-play player and found that the lovely Valley course that I'd been playing on for decades was going to be changed and that some of it was now going to effectively 'disappear' and be incorporated into the private RPGC-Dunluce course.
Just curious.
atb

97.2648% sure it's all owned by RPGC.   Ramore is a lovely Club who have (limited) rights to play on The Valley and can play Dunluce once a month (83.276% sure of that one).  To be a member I think you have to live in Portrush (area) (89.443%).  An undisclosed but "significant" percentage of RPGC members primarily reside in Belfast.
At least until he bought a gaff in Florida, their Weekend Medal  was regularly won by a Mr G McDowell.  What ever he wins for that would sit very nicely beside the replica  US Open trophy that he keeps 71.63%/(kept 100%) in the Ramore silverware display case.

Here's the trophy cabinet just inside the main entrance to the Rathmore GC clubhouse. As I was taking this photograph a chap came up to me and mentioned how he was the current holder of the larger crystal-glass trophy (near bottom right) that was presented by G-Mac to be played for by the club members. I think he said it was called (not surprisingly) the 'G-Mac Trophy'. He also indicated to me the contents how many bottles of Magners he had managed to fill the trophy with. It was quite a significant number.
atb


PS - "Lets just be glad the R&A brass are not the custodians of the old Dutch master pieces hanging in the Rijksmuseum." Great line Frank.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Not sure why anyone would want to change that eighth into a two-tiered green?   

+1
I thought the 8th was one of the most interesting holes on the property.

2-tiered certainly does not remind me of Colt. (Calling Frank Pont)

I'm afraid the humility required to leave well alone is not a quality the R&A are looking for. Better to tamper than to consider the notion that a guy 100 years ago might just have known his stuff better than anyone around today.

Modern architects results are better because we now have machines to move problems that previously they lived with. The minor opinion maybe leave alone but things move on and courses change they always have done when better opportunities become available or even sometimes situations constrict. Historically and statistically there are very few of the 3000+ GB&I courses that have not had some surgery in the last 25 years, extend that to 50 years, 75 and then 100 and it really is a very small percentage without a routing change. Perhaps an interesting exercise is what GB & I top 100 course have not had the knife. Hardly any golf course owner or members club want to stay static, almost always there is something to make better in the opinions of the people that matter.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Seems a little extreme to me to make all those changes to  a classic course. I played it last year and I did think that 17 and  18 were pretty anticlimactic, but completely replace them? I also played the Valley and loved it.  Neat little fun course. Had pint with a member who's Parents have a house on the Dunluce.  Gave us some history of the course and tales of Darren, Graeme, and Rory.  Would love to go back.

Seems absolute common sense to me and 235 - 2 was the vote. What is more unbelievable is you thought 17 and 18 were pretty anticlimatic.

I just don't see the need for extreme changes to a course that is fantastic. Voting to have to the tournament is a no brainer. Like the president of the club said the two no voters must have been joking. 17 and 18 were the two weakest holes on the course IMO. If they were two of the best why would they be talking about replacing them for the championship? Just for tents? After getting the crap kicked out of me from the 5th hole to 16th. 17 and 18 were a welcome relief but I wouldn't build two new holes to replace them.

Certain areas are key to the jigsaw. To make RP work for an Open several things had to be done. So you have to take all the plus and minus and weigh that up versus staging the championship. The best two to chop were obviously 17 and 18. Reason being not enough space around these holes to finish and the area was great for the tented village. I don't know the courses at all, only from TV and Google Earth. I would have thought that two holes on the Vallley course could have housed two new holes for the Dunluce and the loss of the up and back Valley holes could be substituted by 17 and 18 from the Dunluce to the valley. They have obviously looked at all the differing scenarios, but change was inevitable for the championship to return it was not going to work as it was, simply because of the logistical and commercial importance. Open championship courses tick logistical and commercial boxes first.

[Scott Warren]

Modern architects results are better because we now have machines to move problems that previously they lived with.

What's ironic is that you never hear this sort of self-gratifying statement from the modern architects who are actually building courses comparable to the best of the ODG courses.

And I'd be really happy for the modernists to have their courses and stay away from the classics (seeing as they seem to care quite little for their qualities), but of course they want not only to build brawny, uncharismatic "championship courses", they want to drag the classics kicking and screaming past some arbitrary length and par as well.

I'm thinking of joining a church so I can pray more meaningfully that The Open never, ever returns to Deal.

[Rob Marshall]

Seems a little extreme to me to make all those changes to  a classic course. I played it last year and I did think that 17 and  18 were pretty anticlimactic, but completely replace them? I also played the Valley and loved it.  Neat little fun course. Had pint with a member who's Parents have a house on the Dunluce.  Gave us some history of the course and tales of Darren, Graeme, and Rory.  Would love to go back.

Seems absolute common sense to me and 235 - 2 was the vote. What is more unbelievable is you thought 17 and 18 were pretty anticlimatic.

I just don't see the need for extreme changes to a course that is fantastic. Voting to have to the tournament is a no brainer. Like the president of the club said the two no voters must have been joking. 17 and 18 were the two weakest holes on the course IMO. If they were two of the best why would they be talking about replacing them for the championship? Just for tents? After getting the crap kicked out of me from the 5th hole to 16th. 17 and 18 were a welcome relief but I wouldn't build two new holes to replace them.

Certain areas are key to the jigsaw. To make RP work for an Open several things had to be done. So you have to take all the plus and minus and weigh that up versus staging the championship. The best two to chop were obviously 17 and 18. Reason being not enough space around these holes to finish and the area was great for the tented village. I don't know the courses at all, only from TV and Google Earth. I would have thought that two holes on the Vallley course could have housed two new holes for the Dunluce and the loss of the up and back Valley holes could be substituted by 17 and 18 from the Dunluce to the valley. They have obviously looked at all the differing scenarios, but change was inevitable for the championship to return it was not going to work as it was, simply because of the logistical and commercial importance. Open championship courses tick logistical and commercial boxes first.

You find it "unbelievable" that I found 17 and 18 anticlimactic, yet you've never seen or played the course.  Hopefully someday you are lucky enough to get there. Just don't stay at the Eglington hotel.