[Adam Warren]

9. Spyglass Hill
8. Winged Foot (West)
7. PGA West Stadium Course
6. Bethpage Black
5. Sawgrass
4. Kiawah (Ocean Course)
3. Pine Valley
2. Oakmont
1. Whisltling Straits

Of course they are going to stick to more well-known courses, but how much disagreement from you guys?  Thoughts?

http://www.golf.com/photos/9-most-difficult-courses-america/spyglass-hill

[Tom_Doak]

The article is based mostly on course ratings and slopes.

The dumbest part is that they calculate the average 16-handicapper's "expected score", not factoring in that he will be petrified by the green speeds at Oakmont, or that his handicap is based on the top 50% of his rounds.  So they show expected scores of 94-97 for these courses, when most 16-handicappers would be unlikely to break 110 from the back tees.

[Josh Tarble]

I don't think Whistling Straits or Sawgrass are overly difficult if you stay within your game.  Sure there are some tough shots on each, but I feel they are very playable for the thinking player. 

Just as a comparison to the Straits, I think Erin Hills is far more difficult and I think Blackwolf Run River can play really difficult as well.

[Jason Thurman]

I was going to say the same thing. Erin Hills is much more difficult than the Straits. Pete Dye Golf Club is probably the toughest Dye course I've seen.

If we're talking about difficulty relative to rating and slope, I'd feel a lot more comfortable betting on a random 16 handicapper to beat his handicap at Whistling Straits than I would feel about him beating his handicap about Devou Park.

[Chris DeToro]

Any of those courses are very difficult, but I'd have to say any course with a lot of water hazards is going to be very difficult for a 16 handicapper.  PGA National should probably have made it on this list too

[Greg Clark]

I agree with the thoughts on the Straits course.  It looks a lot more difficult than it plays.  I actually don't think it is that tough of a course.  On site the River course is much harder and I think the Irish course is tougher as well.  Also agree that Erin Hills is tougher.

[Chris DeToro]

Agree on Straits as well.  The caddies are a huge help and mitigate a lot of the visual disturbances that the course features

[Andy Troeger]

I've played 7 of the 9 (not Oakmont or Kiawah). If just picking courses with name recognition, then the list is fine. Considering all the courses out there, then none of the ones listed make my top five if we're just considering difficulty. Heck, Nicklaus has designed five that are harder than anything on that list IMO (Old Corkscrew, The Concession, Idaho Club, Red Ledges, and Promontory).

I would tend to agree that Erin Hills is harder than Whistling Straits (or most of the others listed).

Winged Foot West, from the members tees with normal rough, isn't that hard compared to the others listed. Unless you hit it above the hole regularly ;-)

[Michael Felton]

9. Spyglass Hill
8. Winged Foot (West)
7. PGA West Stadium Course
6. Bethpage Black
5. Sawgrass
4. Kiawah (Ocean Course)
3. Pine Valley
2. Oakmont
1. Whisltling Straits

Of course they are going to stick to more well-known courses, but how much disagreement from you guys?  Thoughts?

http://www.golf.com/photos/9-most-difficult-courses-america/spyglass-hill

I've played 5 of the courses on the list. I would rank them thus:

5. Sawgrass
4. Bethpage Black
3. Pine Valley
2. Winged Foot West
1. Kiawah Ocean

Sawgrass I didn't find that difficult. Especially if you play your game sensibly. BPB is far from easy, but it's not that hard. It has room and there are not really any out of bounds or really any water other than on 8 to worry about. BPB would be as hard as WFW if the greens were smaller, better protected and far more sloping. WFW has spots where you can be on the green and you just basically can't make par. BPB has nothing like that. I haven't played PV in a long time and I may misremember it, but I remember it being reasonably playable and quite wide, so long as you don't miss. If you miss, you're in big trouble, more so than any of the others on this list except perhaps Kiawah. Kiawah is ridiculously difficult and from all the way back is almost a joke I think.

[Carl Nichols]

How many folks have played Whistling Straits from the tips in a decent wind?  It's 7800 yards (!) from those tees.  As just one example, 18 is semi-manageable from other tees, but becomes a 520-yard par 4 from the tips with a super-hard second shot.  I don't think its 77.2 course rating is that crazy.

[Josh Tarble]

How many folks have played Whistling Straits from the tips in a decent wind?  It's 7800 yards (!) from those tees.  As just one example, 18 is semi-manageable from other tees, but becomes a 520-yard par 4 from the tips with a super-hard second shot.  I don't think its 77.2 course rating is that crazy.

I have.  It was about 60 degrees that day as well.

I maintain that it isn't that difficult, if you play within your own game.  Fairways are wide, there aren't massive carries and not a ton of water.  Will it be difficult? Yes, but not even close to as hard as the same circumstances as Erin Hills.

[David Bartman]

9. Spyglass Hill
8. Winged Foot (West)
7. PGA West Stadium Course
6. Bethpage Black
5. Sawgrass
4. Kiawah (Ocean Course)
3. Pine Valley
2. Oakmont
1. Whisltling Straits

Of course they are going to stick to more well-known courses, but how much disagreement from you guys?  Thoughts?

http://www.golf.com/photos/9-most-difficult-courses-america/spyglass-hill

Not many if any of these courses would be in the top 9 , but those other courses either don't sell magazines or don't pay to be in them. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Interesting that Golf Mag is not afraid of seeming to disparage the public courses on this list, or of alienating potential advertisers via any implied criticism. In other words, "difficult" is clearly not a dirty word; the very opposite, in fact -- it must be honey to a significant percentage of retail golfing bees. (I wonder if the statisticians among us could find a meaningful relationship between costs/green fee levels and this supposed level of difficulty.)  Who knew that golf's apparent decline isn't at all related to the game's difficulty. Indeed, decision-makers better keep those 15 inch cups as far away as possible from courses like Kiawah, Sawgrass, and Whistling Straits -- and developers should run not walk to worship at Pete Dye's feet!!

Peter

[Neil Johnston]

The hardest course I ever played was in Hawaii, called Ko'olau. Slope is in the 150s, rating 78.2. It's been mentioned in these types of articles before, so I am surprised it was omitted.

It's a decidedly less subtle difficulty than Erin Hills, with cliffs, carries and crazy slopes.

[Greg Taylor]

I've played some of them and only one was a total ball buster and it was Kiawah - in a 40mph wind.

Straits and BPB I thought were long but not in the same league as Kiawah.

[Jeff Evagues]

The hardest course I ever played was in Hawaii, called Ko'olau. Slope is in the 150s, rating 78.2. It's been mentioned in these types of articles before, so I am surprised it was omitted.

It's a decidedly less subtle difficulty than Erin Hills, with cliffs, carries and crazy slopes.

I'll second the vote for Ko'olau.

[Doug Ralston]

I do recall that the PGA had exactly one tournament for the regular pros on PGA West Stadium, and that
many of the players told PGA to NEVER put them there again, and they obliged.  And that course was not
even 'prepared', as in made more difficult' for them. Since they still play Oakmont and others, I must
suspect PGA West must be significantly tougher?

[Erik Mosley]

The hardest course I ever played was in Hawaii, called Ko'olau. Slope is in the 150s, rating 78.2. It's been mentioned in these types of articles before, so I am surprised it was omitted.

It's a decidedly less subtle difficulty than Erin Hills, with cliffs, carries and crazy slopes.

I'll second the vote for Ko'olau.

Agreed - only thing that saved me there was the local rule on the scorecard of playing the jungle as a lateral hazard.  I played it about 7 years ago and would still be out there if it weren't for that rule (assuming unlimited balls of course).

[Ivan Lipko]

I don't understand how you can say anything about the most difficult course. There is no such a thing. It simply doesn't exist.

PGA West  is really benign with no rough. Some unnamed and unknown course in Sweden with thick rough,wind and rain can be tough as nails even at 6800.

[Scott Wintersteen]

I do recall that the PGA had exactly one tournament for the regular pros on PGA West Stadium, and that
many of the players told PGA to NEVER put them there again, and they obliged.  And that course was not
even 'prepared', as in made more difficult' for them. Since they still play Oakmont and others, I must
suspect PGA West must be significantly tougher?

I really think the difficulty of PGA West is overhyped.  I played it over the winter and had psyched myself up for an extremely difficult course but found it to be very playable from the regular tees.  The roughly was very manageable and not too penal. 

[DMoriarty]

What a stupid list.   I hope the magazines aren't trying to return to the era when they automatically equated difficult with good.

[Sean_A]

Talking about the difficulty of a course in 40 or even 20 mph is pointless.  Unless you make a living from golf, so is talking about championship tees.  I didn't find Kiawah that hard from tee lengths I normally play on other courses and in a normalish wind of 10-12 mph.  

Ciao

[Matt OBrien]

Just finished 36 holes at BPB from the back tees and I find it hard to believe there is a tougher golf course tee to green. I have played 5 of the others on the list and I think BPB should be at the top of the list.

[Andrew Buck]

I bet there are dozens of courses with intrusive OB and junk that play much harder. 

I know there is a 6,300 yard course in this area that legend has no one has ever shot par.  Truly an awful course, and if you look at an aerial you have a hard time identifying 18 holes or a routing, but I bet there are many courses that a 16 can't reasonably play without losing a dozen balls.

[Greg Gilson]

I agree with the comment above that this is a pretty stupid list....but it sucked me in!

For me, it comes down to a definition of "difficulty". Is it

(1) the course upon which its hardest to make pars (IMHO Oakmont, WFW, BPB etc) or

(2) the courses where you will potentially run up the biggest numbers (Kiawah, Straits and a number of others not on the list with lots of OOB, water, hay & lost ball potential).

For me, its #2 and theres a long list of those...many of which already mentioned.

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