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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
TOP 10 ENGLAND INLAND
« on: August 19, 2014, 04:36:50 AM »
I had an interesting conversation with an Austrian chap at Perranporth.  He seemed fairly well traveled in the Europe and knew a fair amount about GB&I golf.  His broad take was Ireland and Scotland are for links.  England (and he did add the US) are for inland golf.  I pointed out, in vain, that many of my favourite links are in England.  He agreed, England has bevy of wonderful links, but they organically (his word) feel different and are consequently less attractive.  We never wholly discovered what he meant by "organically", so be it.  His point was England's true strength lie inland.  Mr Austria was planning on making several trips to all parts of England to experience the full enchilata so he asked me what are the best 10 courses I know of in England.  I approached the question with a proviso that if Mr Austria wants to experience the full enchilta of England inland golf he should ask people for the 10 favourites courses.  That way he will obtain a wide range of courses in a wide range of locations.  Again, to no avail, the full enchilata is the "best"  :P.  I took some time writing down the courses as the conversation continued and came up with quite a standard list.  

Alwoodley
Ganton
Little Aston
Royal Worlington & Newmarket
St Georges Hill
Sunningdale Old & New
Swinley Forest
Walton Heath Old
Woking

It would be interesting to see the top 10s of others because I bet the pool of candidates is likely no more than 20ish courses, hardly the full enchilada.  Am I off my rocker, or would folks prefer to know about favourites rather than best?

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 04:40:53 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TOP 10 ENGLAND INLAND
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2014, 04:44:54 AM »
I’m more familiar with the inland courses in England than I am with many of the links… I still haven’t seen Ganton but instinctively know that I would love it…

With that in mind, I’d suggest Alwoodley and Ganton up north, travel past Little Aston (for parkland) on the way south and pick the following Home Counties heathlands: Walton Heath, West Sussex, Sunningdale, St Georges Hill and Woking… I would then supplement these with one modern (someone can recommend which) and one outlier…  Either that or get rid of one of those last two and add Woodhall Spa…

Done.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TOP 10 ENGLAND INLAND
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2014, 05:22:05 AM »
Mine are more orientated towards the north of England includes only courses I have played but in no particular order would be as follows

Alwoodley
Ganton
Lindrick
Little Aston
Swinley Forest
Walton Heath Old
Woking
Strensil (York GC)
Baildon
Ogden (Halifax)
Notts

From Sean's list I have not played but I suspect that they would make the list

Sunningdale Old & New
Royal Worlington & Newmarket
St Georges Hill

Jon
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 06:15:10 AM by Jon Wiggett »

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TOP 10 ENGLAND INLAND
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2014, 07:07:36 AM »
Lo how the mighty Beau Desert are fallen.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TOP 10 ENGLAND INLAND
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2014, 07:23:03 AM »
In no order:

Ganton
Woking
Alwoodley
Walton Heath Old
St George's Hill
Addington

If I played them more I think Delamere Forest and possibly WH New would become favorites.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TOP 10 ENGLAND INLAND
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2014, 07:40:29 AM »
No slight intended, but 'Top-10....' is kind of looking like a 'Most-expensive-10...'. Maybe that's the nature of inland golf what with higher running costs? Maybe it's that, with a few exceptions, most named are located around the main urban areas ?

If Surrey/Berkshire were all clay would theses counties have any highly regarded golf courses?

Makes me think of last years thread about top-20 courses you'd recommend to golfing mates - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,57213.0.html

atb
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 07:44:26 AM by Thomas Dai »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TOP 10 ENGLAND INLAND
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2014, 07:50:58 AM »
In no order:

Ganton
Woking
Alwoodley
Walton Heath Old
St George's Hill
Addington

If I played them more I think Delamere Forest and possibly WH New would become favorites.

As always, favourites is a completely different ball game. 

Alwoodley
Ganton
Little Aston
Royal Worlington & Newmarket
St Georges Hill
Sunningdale Old & New
Swinley Forest
Walton Heath Old
Woking

Camberley Heath
Cavendish
Church Stretton
Cleeve Cloud
Kington
Oxford (haven't seen new pond  :P - could see the course fall completely out of favour with me)
Reddish Vale
Yelverton

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TOP 10 ENGLAND INLAND
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2014, 07:59:19 AM »
I realize we're talking favorites -- Beau Desert is not / was not a favorite of yours?
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TOP 10 ENGLAND INLAND
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2014, 08:17:17 AM »
I realize we're talking favorites -- Beau Desert is not / was not a favorite of yours?

Mark

I think my experience with Cleeve Cloud and Church Stretton and maybe a few others knocked Beau down. Beau is close to the mark, but the trees and rough knock it back a bit.  If the club, in its wisdom, ever figures out that more vegetation=less quality then Beau will definitely hit the mark.  Plus, Beau has jumped on the Home Counties bandwagon with respect to green fees.  It wasn't that long ago I could call up and walk on for £45.  Now the fee is in the £70 and up range.  As a design, I rate Beau extremely high, one of the very best in England. As care takers of the course, I rate the club very low.  

Sheehy

I am very surprised to New Zealand mentioned.  That is a very tight course. Knowing how you feel about that sort of thing....

Ciao  
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 08:20:47 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TOP 10 ENGLAND INLAND
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2014, 09:34:14 AM »
No mention yet of Reddish Vale - Duncan must be busy!

I'd put Prestbury way above Southfield.

What of The Addington, Royal Ashdown, Stoneham, Aldeburgh, Brancepeth Castle or Broadstone?

This is an English list, but does any Welsh inland course come close? Bull Bay perhaps?

Brent Hutto

Re: TOP 10 ENGLAND INLAND
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2014, 09:58:22 AM »
I'm no good on this one, guys. As far as I can remember I've only played nine inland courses in England.

Walton Heath Old
Walton Heath New
Huntercombe
Alwoodley
Crowborough Beacon
Reddish Vale
Ganton
Notts
Wilmslow

I've presented them in the chronological order in which I played them because placing them in order of preference seems to come out slightly differently every time I run through the list.

Is Ganton better than Notts? Quite likely so. Do I prefer Ganton to Notts? Not necessarily, the setting and visuals at Notts are mighty special.

How about Alwoodley versus Walton Heath Old/New? I've got to say the 36 holes on offer at Walton Heath are nearly unbeatable, a day of Old then lunch then New was my first-ever exposure to English golf. But I think Alwoodley is very nearly the equal of either 18-hole course at Walton Heath and arguably the turf was of better quality and with more interesting micro-movement.

And Huntercombe really wowed me the one time I played there in 2006 (again, on my first UK visit). But with so many more courses played in the ensuing seven years I'm not sure it stands out in my memory as clearly superior to some of the other 2nd-tier inland courses I've played since.

So chronological will have to do...except for one statement I'll venture. In my experience Ganton is the best inland course in England but only because it's actually a links course that happens to be 11 miles (or whatever it is) removed from the current shoreline.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 10:09:42 AM by Brent Hutto »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: TOP 10 ENGLAND INLAND
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2014, 10:07:57 AM »
I'm surprised there is no mention of West Sussex yet.  I've only been there once but it was a beautiful spot.  Mitts and Walton Heath would be in my ten also.  Not sure which three of Sean's I would throw out, other than Little Aston, I like all the rest a lot.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TOP 10 ENGLAND INLAND
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2014, 10:15:09 AM »
I love the inland courses in England.  I had two trips dedicated to inland courses.  I haven't played as many as some but my favorites are:
Ganton
Sunningdale Old and New
Walton Heath Old and New
Woodhall Spa (surprised no one has mentioned it)
Cavendish
Beau Desert (not as familiar with it as Sean, with whom I played it and thoroughly enjoyed it)
Wentworth East
Prestbury (Love the greens complexes)
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TOP 10 ENGLAND INLAND
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2014, 10:19:46 AM »
"I'm surprised there is no mention of West Sussex yet."

Tom D.

Ally Mcintosh listed West Sussex in his post.

DT

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TOP 10 ENGLAND INLAND
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2014, 12:43:56 PM »
Ignoring quirk (Kington/Painswick/Minch' Old etc) and bringing ££ and value into the equation and here's are a couple of inlanders for under £50 per round, although the first one is very nearly in Wales.

It's the Rolls of Monmouth. Once-upon-at-time a stately home/country estate - ex-home of the 'Rolls' of Roll-Royce fame. £45/36-holes. Parkland, not treelined but with huge alboretum like yee olde specmen trees that on most holes are strategically routed into play. Hilly and tough, nastily so from the 6,800 yd back-tees. Play it in the Men's Open in May for £25 but don't expect to beat your hcp, very few do. Some distinctly evil/nice sloped greens. In his very early European Tour days Greg Norman 'represented' the course.

Here's another English inland 'sleeper' worth consideration - not a heathland or a downland or an upland or an moorland - just a mere parkland, "gee, a parkland, how boring" (sic) - South Staffs at Wolverhampton, 15 mins from the M6/M54 - originally a Vardon course later tweaked by Colt and Braid - private members club, immaculate condition - £43/round in the week. Play it for choice in the very back-tee 6,700 yd Men's Open Comp in Sept (£30 inc food) and if you can play to within 3 or 4 shots of your hcp you've done damn well. Numerous long par-4's and known locally for it's very quick true rolling greens. Ex-Ryder Cup player Peter Baker is the Pro.

As to others, well even though a haircut may be needed Beau Desert is still fabulous IMO. Getting more pricey? Yes, but maybe that's because folk like us keep mentioning it! Supply and demand and all that. Plus there's good value at places like the delightful Huntercombe and the short-n-cunning like Tadmarton.

atb
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 03:04:53 PM by Thomas Dai »

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TOP 10 ENGLAND INLAND
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2014, 01:09:05 PM »
Applying my rule of min 2 plays means a good no of places I want to get back to more, than almost any on here miss out.  Including both Sunningdales, Pulborough and SGH on that list.  (ok Kington too!).  These are course I like rather than attempt to rate as 'best'.

Addington
Alwoodley
Berkshire REd
Cleeve Cloud
Ganton
Huntercombe
New Zealand
Swinley
worlington
Woking


Honourable mentions to
Thorndon Park
Orsett
Liphook
Hainault Forrest x2
And The Priors (2nd course at Stapleford Abbotts)


Have to add I’d struggle to provide a top 5 inland in any other country. Shows where my priorities lie.

Favourite Modern probably Stockley Park, but that was before they messed with it to add a range.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 05:07:31 PM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TOP 10 ENGLAND INLAND
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2014, 01:12:31 PM »
Any opinions on the Close House Colt tribute course that opened a couple of years ago? Is it a contender for top 10 or 20 inland course in England?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 01:23:03 PM by David_Tepper »

Cristian

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TOP 10 ENGLAND INLAND
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2014, 01:16:16 PM »
Woking
Swinley Forest
St Georges Hill
Walton H old
Alwoodley
Walton H new
Berkshire red
Hankley Common
New Zealand
Royal Ashdown Forest

The top 3 stand out for me.

(I have not played at Sunningdale)

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TOP 10 ENGLAND INLAND
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2014, 05:00:58 PM »
Sean,

To answer your follow up question, I would rather see peoples lists of favourites. At the end of the day the vast majority of people are going to have an awful lot of the "so called" best in their favourites lists anyway, but its people like your good self who help open peoples eyes to more interesting and off the beaten track courses, that are just as good an experience as those best courses, and so seeing peoples favourites lists is more enlightening.

For what its worth, my top 10 inland in England, and these are my favourites:

Notts
Ganton
Walton Heath Old*
Cavendish
Beau Desert
Alwoodley
Liphook
Painswick
Swinley Forest*
New Zealand

Frustrated its not 20 leaves out at least Sutton Coldfield, Berkshire Red, Sacred 9*, Huntercombe*

Usual rules for me, that's today's list and *means only one days experience of the place...

I'm quite happy to back up my favourites list but somehow feel a bit inadequate (for want of a phrase  ::) ) if its a best list as I'm pretty certain some I've not yet played such as Sunningdale are certain to be on that list?

Cheers,

James

ps As for being off your rocker, clearly you are as you don't have Notts in your 10 best list!  ;D
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 05:06:43 PM by James Boon »
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TOP 10 ENGLAND INLAND
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2014, 06:34:17 PM »
No mention yet of Reddish Vale - Duncan must be busy!

I'd put Prestbury way above Southfield.

What of The Addington, Royal Ashdown, Stoneham, Aldeburgh, Brancepeth Castle or Broadstone?

This is an English list, but does any Welsh inland course come close? Bull Bay perhaps?

Mark

None of your suggestions would dent my best of list, but Reddish Vale is a firm favourite.  I would like to play Prestbury again as I was very impressed when we last played.  I always think of the Colt 1st/2nd tier divide in terms of grand sites much more so than there actually being that much difference in quality.  Prestbury, however, does have an element of grandeur that most of the other 2nd tiers lack.  Prestbury isn't quite as "lovely" as say Swinley, but it isn't Harborne, Camberley Heath or Oxford either.  The sticking point when comparing Prestbury and Oxford is the much higher green fee Prestbury commands.  Again, its at that level which is too high to "pop" in for a game and as I want (and do) return often to my favourites this is an important consideration.     

The one course you mention I am firmly not in favour of - Royal Ashdown.  Its a good course, but no way, no how, is it anything remotely as interesting as Kington.  And as Ashdown's fame rests mainly on not having bunkers, this is a serious blow to its reputation.  I am afraid its the London money crowd which keeps Ashdown under the lights.  Ashdown was a huge disappointment for me last year.  This is one of the few times I think Doak bombed in giving a 7. I am dumbfounded as to how he thought Ashdown beat out Deal.  Maybe the new edition will redress this situation  :D

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TOP 10 ENGLAND INLAND
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2014, 06:49:30 PM »
Sean,

To answer your follow up question, I would rather see peoples lists of favourites. At the end of the day the vast majority of people are going to have an awful lot of the "so called" best in their favourites lists anyway, but its people like your good self who help open peoples eyes to more interesting and off the beaten track courses, that are just as good an experience as those best courses, and so seeing peoples favourites lists is more enlightening.

For what its worth, my top 10 inland in England, and these are my favourites:

Notts
Ganton
Walton Heath Old*
Cavendish
Beau Desert
Alwoodley
Liphook
Painswick
Swinley Forest*
New Zealand

Frustrated its not 20 leaves out at least Sutton Coldfield, Berkshire Red, Sacred 9*, Huntercombe*

Usual rules for me, that's today's list and *means only one days experience of the place...

I'm quite happy to back up my favourites list but somehow feel a bit inadequate (for want of a phrase  ::) ) if its a best list as I'm pretty certain some I've not yet played such as Sunningdale are certain to be on that list?

Cheers,

James

ps As for being off your rocker, clearly you are as you don't have Notts in your 10 best list!  ;D


Anyone who includes Painswick in this list fully appreciates the joy of golf!   ;D

I haven't played that many inland courses but love the ones I have played:

Alwoodley
Beau Desert
Delamere Forest
Huntercombe
Walton Heath Old
Liphook
Hankley Common
New Zealand
Painswick
Broadway

(Some top shelf Fowler in that list!)

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: TOP 10 ENGLAND INLAND
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2014, 11:01:18 PM »
I've never played it, but I notice that Queenwood is not mentioned.  Is that an oversight?  Or is it too American?  I've heard mixed things about it.  What is the story?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2014, 02:49:34 PM by Jim Hoak »

Wayne Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TOP 10 ENGLAND INLAND
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2014, 12:51:20 AM »
Two trips to England in the last year have convinced me that the inland courses there are fab:  even so called 2nd tier courses
      like Woking, Worplesdon, New Zealand, Huntercombe, and West Sussex have great merit and are wonderful to play..

         My top ten..                     
                                                 St. George's Hill
                                                 Swinley Forest
                                                 Sunningdale Old
                                                 Sunningdale New
                                                 Woodhall Spa
                                                 Walton Heath
                                                 Ganton
                                                 Alwoodley
                                                 Berkshire Red
                                                 Berkshire Blue

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TOP 10 ENGLAND INLAND
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2014, 02:24:42 AM »
Jim far more Deal members have played Augusta or Cypress Point than Queenwood, it's not really on the radar over here.
Cave Nil Vino

Darragh Garrahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TOP 10 ENGLAND INLAND
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2014, 05:10:28 AM »
I can only weigh in with the two inland courses I've played in England: Sunningdale Old and New. I can't decide which I preferred of the two, but I thought they were stunning and very varied.

How do people compare and contrast the two on GCA?

Darragh