Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

I believe that Yale is an unusual Biarritz amongst CBM's collection because it mandates a heroic forced carry over water.

I don't believe that any other CBM Biarritz mandates a forced carry over water with no alternate method of playing the hole.

At 225 yards to the mid-point of a 65 yard green, that's a incredible challenge in the 1920's.
In the 1920's George Bahto indicated that the "better" players only carried the ball 180-190 yards.
Now add in another factor......"wind".

With all the studying CBM engaged in, he had to be cognizant of what he wasdemanding from the golfer on the 9th hole.

Added to the above is the fact that Scott Ramsey discovered, vis a vis numerous core samples, that the front tier and swale were built as putting surface.

If the front tier and swale were fairway,maintained at the high heights of the times, a ball could never make it from the front tier, through the swale and up onto the meat of the back tier.

Many of those with positions to the contrary never played golf in the 1950's and earlier, hence they have no idea as to fairway height.

Lastly, tell me how fairway mowing equipment, the tractor pulled gang mowers, would mow the front tier and swale as fairway.
That's a very deep, steep, sharp swale.

In order to mow the swale the tractor and gang mowers would have to come up, onto the back tier after climbing that steep slope, and if the didn't get stuck they would ruin the swale and back tier putting surface.

Early photos show the swale and front tier mowed as putting surface and it wasn't with tractor pulled, large gang mowers.

[DMoriarty]

Patrick,  the 225 yardage figure cuts directly against your argument, as do the other tee yardages.  

Banks listed the hole at 225 - 210 - 190.

Those yardages only fit the tees if one measures from the middle of the back portion.   They do not fit at all of one measures from the middle of the 65 yard approach/green strip.

If the yardages don't fit, your theory is . . . . flawed.

[Jim_Kennedy]

There were power mowers available in 1925 that could easily maintain the front section of Yale's 9th without causing damage:  



It's easy to see the whole complex as being built like a putting green, cinders and all, even if the front wasn't initially going to be used as one - the drop shot would need a firm surface to send the ball to the back section. A mower like the one pictured could keep the cut at fairway height, 1" or so, and that would still allow the ball to run back.

But I don't think it was long before someone saw the utility of using the whole surface as putting green, and started greensmowing all of it.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

If the front portion was intended as fairway they never would have spent the money and constructed the sub-surface as putting green, something that they didn't do anywhere else on the course.

Are those metal wheels ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,  the 225 yardage figure cuts directly against your argument, as do the other tee yardages.  

Banks listed the hole at 225 - 210 - 190.

David,

What does the hole measure, today, from the back tee to the middle of the green ?

Those yardages only fit the tees if one measures from the middle of the back portion.  

I'm not sure that I agree with you, but even if I did, the best players of the day still couldn't reach the back tier on a fly.
That would require a carry of approximately 210, and he best player could only carry 180-190


They do not fit at all of one measures from the middle of the 65 yard approach/green strip.

If the yardages don't fit, your theory is . . . . flawed.

My theory remains...... intact 

[DMoriarty]

Using the 2008 Google Earth image it looks like it is about 210 yards from the middle of the back portion of the tee to the middle of the green.

Not sure how you could disagree if you haven't checked the measures yourself.  All you need to do to see for yourself is:
1. Look at the location of the three tees on the old aerials.  
2. Use google earth to measure from the middle of each of those tees to the middle of the current green, and also to the middle of the back portion of the green.
3. Compare that to the numbers provided by Banks (225-210-190)

You'll see that his measures were to the middle of the back portion of the green.  

As for how far they hit the ball in the air in 1925, I think your 180-190 yards may be a bit short for the longest golfers.  Nonetheless, even if we use your figures, you have to remember that the back portion of the biarritz was supposed to be just on the borderline of in reach or out of reach for the very longest players.  They had to make a choice.  Either try to carry the back surface and risk hitting into the upslope of the swale or bouncing over, or try a running shot using the first plateau.    That is how the hole was supposed to work.  The fact that the green was a bit long to easily reach in the air meant it was working properly!  

I don't think your theory is still intact.  Your numbers don't work.   Check all three tees.  

[DMoriarty]

Patrick,

Both the lines below are 225 yards.   The white line represents your theory, where the hole measured 225 yards from the middle of the entire complex. The yellow line represents a 225 measure from the middle of the back green area. 



What do you say we put this one to rest? 

[Jay Flemma]

239 yards from back tee to the Middle of the green.

Huge green 75 yards deep, huge swale with plenty of hole locations, thumb print in back tier.

Great bunkering.

From the perspective of the perfect Biarritz green, is Forsgate the best there is ?

What Biarritz green is better ?  And why ?

It's actually 99 yards from front to back. The swale is six feet deep and about twenty feet across! Plus there are excellent internal contours on both the front and back portions