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Mark McKeever

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2014, 08:28:58 AM »
You have to add Fishers and Yale to the mix. 

I wish someone had old pictures of the Biarritz at Gibson Island Club.  Bahto thought that could have been one of the best too.

MM
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2014, 09:13:35 AM »

How does Doak's Biarritz green at Old Mac measure up?  Nearly every other Biarritz green I've seen in pictures looks real similar/symmetrical (in shape and contours).  Doak's does not, which might make it different and more interesting, both to putt and hit onto.   

Jim,

I'll be able to comment on OM later this fall


Josh Tarble

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2014, 10:10:28 AM »
What are the opinions of C&Cs Biarritz at Streamsong?

Phil Lipper

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2014, 10:17:02 AM »
Although Forsgate 17 is a great hole it doesnt compare to Yale #9. Yale #9 is not only a better Biarritz you can make a case its as good of an inland par 3 as any in the world.

Ian Mackenzie

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2014, 11:37:39 AM »
Perhaps due to some geographic bias, I would also consider #6 at Shoreacres.
If a certaine premise is that many Biaritz greens are similar, then SA differentiates (to me) by being in such a beautiful setting.

Well bunkered, deep green that can stretch the hole to just short of 220 yards, the sixth at SA also comes at a great time in the routing and sequence of holes.  I played Forsgate only once and it was in 1980 I think. At the time, it was a coveted course and I never knew why.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #30 on: August 15, 2014, 11:46:22 AM »
ECCC #15- so different that no one ever saw Banks' interpretation, just George.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 11:49:13 AM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Bill Crane

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #31 on: August 15, 2014, 01:00:54 PM »
Yale beats Forsgate, no question.

One of the most fun tournaments I have ever played in was the Outpost Club - "Punchbowl" in late October last year.

Picture 64 golfers, most drinking scotch, all playing the Yale 9th together after 26 holes of golf.   Loads of fun comments as each participant prepared to tee off - one at a time.

Most impressive shot - Colin Sheehan smokes a 4 iron 236 yards downhill over the pond to the back pin placement.

Despite the strong bunkering at Forsgate, it is a pretty level shot.  The combination of the downhill shot over the pond to the classic Yale green are the winner.  The setting and green are just superb.

Wm Flynnfan
_________________________________________________________________
( s k a Wm Flynnfan }

Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2014, 04:24:16 PM »
Maybe because of a lack of playing other Biarritz holes, but Shoreacres is by far the weakest and worst version of this template.  The dip is about 18 inches to 2 feet and the green has mundane contouring at best. The eden and short may belong in a best of conversation,  but of the  23 I've played, Shoreacres Biarritz is by far the least inspiring.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2014, 10:35:18 PM »

Although Forsgate 17 is a great hole it doesnt compare to Yale #9. Yale #9 is not only a better Biarritz you can make a case its as good of an inland par 3 as any in the world.

Phil Lipper & Bill Crane,

Yale's GREEN is vastly inferior to Forsgate's.

Have you played both ?


Malcolm Mckinnon

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2014, 03:46:29 PM »
I propose that the 16th green at North Berwick West "The Gate" is the most unique and nastiest "Biarritz" style green.

It is long but unlike most "Biarritz" greens is also quite narrow. Rather than straight on the green presents itself to the player at a 45 degree angle to the line of play. No green side bunkering but the green is pushed up about eight feet from it's surrounds. The Swale is not perpendicular but instead traverses the green at a diagonal and is at least a six foot depression. Once you make it up on the putting surface there is still plenty of movement.

What a green! Playable but just barely.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 03:59:32 PM by Malcolm Mckinnon »

Mike Sweeney

Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2014, 08:41:09 PM »


The 11th at The Creek is simply the best.[/b][/color]

Mike, the 11th at the Creek is a terrific HOLE, but, the GREEN at Forsgate is exceptional, perhaps the best Biarritz green in golf




Pat,

Only a MORON would disagree with Pat Mucci  ;) :D :-*
« Last Edit: August 16, 2014, 08:46:00 PM by Mike Sweeney »

Jim Nugent

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2014, 12:12:41 AM »

Yale's GREEN is vastly inferior to Forsgate's.


What do you think of the overall holes?  With such a worse green, for Yale's Biarritz to be better, it must do a hell of a better job tee to green. 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2014, 07:26:24 AM »
Jim,

There's two, or perhaps more, ways to look at your question .

One is in the context of setting.
The statement has often been made that if holes 6, 7, 8, 9 & 10 at Pebble Beach were in Kansas, they wouldn't be so well regarded.
Ditto #'s 15, 16 & 17 at CPC.

So,compare the settings and tell me what you think.

Another context is playability as it relates to the general architectural intent.

I've always had an issue with drop shot holes, be they ""shorts" or "Biarritz's.

I think Biarritz's FUNCTION better when the elevation differential between tee and green isn't so great.
I think the 17th at Forsgate functions far better than the 9th at Yale in terms of playability, especially to a back hole location.

I also think that the much bigger swale provides more hole locations at Forsgate

Jim Nugent

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2014, 08:06:37 AM »
Pat, I've always wondered about the Yale Biarritz, for the reasons you gave.  That back pin looks like a bear to reach; and the front pin removes much of the uniqueness of the template. 

Would the ocean holes at Pebble and CPC be as highly regarded in Kansas?  One question is, what takes the place of the ocean?  If it's a canyon, those holes might really stand out in the golfing world.  If it's a cow pasture marked with OB, not so much.   

Whatever it is, pretty unlikely it creates the drama and beauty the ocean does. 

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2014, 09:44:43 AM »
The Biarritz green at Wexford Plantation is exceptional. I can't compare it to Forsgate as I've never played there. Here are a couple of snaps of Wexford:




"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2014, 10:43:37 AM »
Michael,

It looks interesting.

What's the elevation differential between tee and green and what's the hole's length from the back tee ?

Jim,

As the elevation differential equalizes, the playing options to the swale and back tier increase, adding more variety to the play of the hole.

The back tier at Yale is sloped significantly, perhaps to hold the incoming tee shot.  While the back tier at Forsgate is also sloped, it's not as steep

In addition, the slope continues  beyond the putting surface, which makes a direct aerial assault on a back hole location more attractive.

Forsgate's green has the thumbprint, which means that just reaching the back plateau doesn't guarantee a two putt.
This is probably an important feature as reaching the back plateau is statistically weighted on the recovery, not the tee shot.

Malcolm Mckinnon

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2014, 06:09:40 PM »
What , no response to "the gate" sixteenth at North Berwick West being the finest Biarritz green?

I have been waiting for someone to say that it is not a real Biarritz because it is not a par three or some other lame reason. Fact is is this is the original "Biarritz" of them all! Tom Dunn grew up playing the golf course at North Berwick West and was well acquainted with the "gate" 16th green as a youth. He modified the green at North Berwick and created a template which he further used in Biarritz, France.

Quod erat demonstrandum....

The Dunn's were more than a family business
By Douglas Seaton
North Berwick Factfile
WILLIE DUNN SNR. was born in Musselburgh in 1821 and along with his twin brother Jamie, played in many challenge matches between 1840-1860. Willie Dunn Snr. apprenticed under the Gourlay family, and was keeper of the green at Blackheath until 1864 when he returned to the Thistle Golf Club at Leith Links. Willie worked as a club and ball maker from his house at Primrose Cottage, Lochend, Leith. In 1867 the Thistle Club leased No.8 Vanburgh Place as their clubhouse where Willie Dunn resided with his workshop situated behind in Vanburgh Place Lane.

Dunn had two sons Thomas who apprenticed as a club maker under his father at Musselburgh and Willie Dunn Jnr. who trained under his older brother from the age of thirteen. Tom Dunn started his professional career at North Berwick in 1869. The following year he moved to Wimbledon and later joined his father at Leith Links where they lived and worked at No.7 Vanburgh Place. Willie Dunn Snr remained at Leith Links for ten years before settling at North Berwick. He died at Millhill, Inveresk in 1878 at the age of 59 years.

Tom Dunn married Isabella Gourlay and they moved to Royal Wimbledon Golf Club living in Windmill Cottage where John Duncan Dunn (1872), William Gourlay Dunn (1874) and Isabella May Gourlay Dunn (1880) were born. Tom Dunn employed two men as club makers and his 17 year old brother Willie Dunn was his apprentice. Tom Dunn and his family returned to North Berwick in 1882 where Norah Eleanor Dunn (1886) and Seymour Dunn (1882) were born.

According to his birth certificate Seymour was born on the West Links, and as the only building on the golf course was his father's club makers workshop we can only assume he was born in the timber building beside the first tee. Dunn purchased the property at Dunedin Lodge, 60 Forth Street in May 1883 and his children attended North Berwick Public School until the age of twelve when John and Seymour were sent to Clydesdale College in Hamilton to continue their private education. John studied up to the age of 15 years with a view to becoming a doctor and sat the entrance examine for Edinburgh University.

In 'The Golf Book of East Lothian' published in 1896, Rev.John Kerr wrote. 'When Thomas Dunn entered on his duties in November 1881, he found the green very much cut up with iron marks and holes all over the place, and the putting-greens and teeing grounds in very bad order. Having got a sum of between two and three hundred pounds raised by subscription, he set to work with a gang of men to get things put right, and by next season the condition of the course was the admiration of all who played over it.' It was at this time Tom Dunn extended the 16th green with its unique deep swale bisecting the middle.

Tom was diagnosed with blood poisoning and advised to recuperate in the South of France while his son John looked after the business in North Berwick. In the winter of 1887 Tom Dunn joined his brother Willie at Biarritz Golf Club in France where they laid out the Le Phare course. He used the three level layout on the 16th at North Berwick on several greens at Biarritz and the design is now called a 'Biarritz Green'.

Tom Dunn was employed by the West Links Green Committee as Keeper Of The Green and by the North Berwick New Club as their Clubmaster. When the members complained that he was not carrying out his duties in the clubhouse and this was followed by Dunn's request to have his house completely redecorated, this was the last straw and his employment as Clubmaster was terminated in September 1886. He received ten pounds to soften the blow and continued to be employed by the Green Committee as Keeper of The Green.

Seymour's instruction methods were used by the top pro's including Walter Hagen, Gene Sarazen and Jim Barnes.

On a Saturday morning Tom Dunn stood at the first tee where he would dispose of two big sacks of remade 'six pennies' to trainloads of golfing youth out for a day from Edinburgh. The timber club makers workshop on the West Links, North Berwick was taken down in 1887 and a new building designed by Tom Dunn erected. It had a workshop and a large ajoining room with lockers for rent which Tantallon Golf Club used for their meetings. This building remains as the present professional's shop beside the first tee.

In 1889, Dunn left for France without informing the Greens Committee and his employment was terminated by letter. On 8th November 1889 Tom Dunn replied.

« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 06:15:38 PM by Malcolm Mckinnon »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2014, 06:47:34 PM »
Malcolm,

Why would you expect me to comment on the play of a hole that I've never seen or don't recollect ?

Do you have any photos ?

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2014, 12:59:13 AM »
Michael,

It looks interesting.

What's the elevation differential between tee and green and what's the hole's length from the back tee ?

Jim,

As the elevation differential equalizes, the playing options to the swale and back tier increase, adding more variety to the play of the hole.

The back tier at Yale is sloped significantly, perhaps to hold the incoming tee shot.  While the back tier at Forsgate is also sloped, it's not as steep

In addition, the slope continues  beyond the putting surface, which makes a direct aerial assault on a back hole location more attractive.

Forsgate's green has the thumbprint, which means that just reaching the back plateau doesn't guarantee a two putt.
This is probably an important feature as reaching the back plateau is statistically weighted on the recovery, not the tee shot.

Patrick - it is a 415yd par 4, so the angle and distance into the green will vary based on the tee shot.

Here is a photo from the tee so you can get a feel for the total hole:

"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Bill Brightly

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2014, 08:38:33 AM »
Forgate's Biarritz, sorry I don't have better photo of the green.



The Creek.





Fox Chapel




« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 09:06:04 AM by Bill Brightly »

Sean_A

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2014, 08:52:29 AM »
I wonder why the Biarritz concept wasn't used for short 4s or 5s originally.  It seems to me that one of the key features of a B is the head-on shot.  Wouldn't it be cool if the player had to earn the head-on shot rather than it being gifted?  I can see the value of trying to get home one stroke early on a 4 or 5 in an effort to avoid earning the head-on approach.  Of course, that may mean an awful recovery from a bunker.  As long 3s it seems to me most golfers just bash it up there because they can't reach with much degree of accuracy.  It would be interesting to flip the coin and ask good players if they want to bash it up there without much degree of accuracy.  This is definitely the one template I am not overly keen on.

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 11:21:05 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark McKeever

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2014, 09:36:27 AM »
What , no response to "the gate" sixteenth at North Berwick West being the finest Biarritz green?

I have been waiting for someone to say that it is not a real Biarritz because it is not a par three or some other lame reason. Fact is is this is the original "Biarritz" of them all! Tom Dunn grew up playing the golf course at North Berwick West and was well acquainted with the "gate" 16th green as a youth. He modified the green at North Berwick and created a template which he further used in Biarritz, France.

Quod erat demonstrandum....

The Dunn's were more than a family business
By Douglas Seaton
North Berwick Factfile
WILLIE DUNN SNR. was born in Musselburgh in 1821 and along with his twin brother Jamie, played in many challenge matches between 1840-1860. Willie Dunn Snr. apprenticed under the Gourlay family, and was keeper of the green at Blackheath until 1864 when he returned to the Thistle Golf Club at Leith Links. Willie worked as a club and ball maker from his house at Primrose Cottage, Lochend, Leith. In 1867 the Thistle Club leased No.8 Vanburgh Place as their clubhouse where Willie Dunn resided with his workshop situated behind in Vanburgh Place Lane.

Dunn had two sons Thomas who apprenticed as a club maker under his father at Musselburgh and Willie Dunn Jnr. who trained under his older brother from the age of thirteen. Tom Dunn started his professional career at North Berwick in 1869. The following year he moved to Wimbledon and later joined his father at Leith Links where they lived and worked at No.7 Vanburgh Place. Willie Dunn Snr remained at Leith Links for ten years before settling at North Berwick. He died at Millhill, Inveresk in 1878 at the age of 59 years.

Tom Dunn married Isabella Gourlay and they moved to Royal Wimbledon Golf Club living in Windmill Cottage where John Duncan Dunn (1872), William Gourlay Dunn (1874) and Isabella May Gourlay Dunn (1880) were born. Tom Dunn employed two men as club makers and his 17 year old brother Willie Dunn was his apprentice. Tom Dunn and his family returned to North Berwick in 1882 where Norah Eleanor Dunn (1886) and Seymour Dunn (1882) were born.

According to his birth certificate Seymour was born on the West Links, and as the only building on the golf course was his father's club makers workshop we can only assume he was born in the timber building beside the first tee. Dunn purchased the property at Dunedin Lodge, 60 Forth Street in May 1883 and his children attended North Berwick Public School until the age of twelve when John and Seymour were sent to Clydesdale College in Hamilton to continue their private education. John studied up to the age of 15 years with a view to becoming a doctor and sat the entrance examine for Edinburgh University.

In 'The Golf Book of East Lothian' published in 1896, Rev.John Kerr wrote. 'When Thomas Dunn entered on his duties in November 1881, he found the green very much cut up with iron marks and holes all over the place, and the putting-greens and teeing grounds in very bad order. Having got a sum of between two and three hundred pounds raised by subscription, he set to work with a gang of men to get things put right, and by next season the condition of the course was the admiration of all who played over it.' It was at this time Tom Dunn extended the 16th green with its unique deep swale bisecting the middle.

Tom was diagnosed with blood poisoning and advised to recuperate in the South of France while his son John looked after the business in North Berwick. In the winter of 1887 Tom Dunn joined his brother Willie at Biarritz Golf Club in France where they laid out the Le Phare course. He used the three level layout on the 16th at North Berwick on several greens at Biarritz and the design is now called a 'Biarritz Green'.

Tom Dunn was employed by the West Links Green Committee as Keeper Of The Green and by the North Berwick New Club as their Clubmaster. When the members complained that he was not carrying out his duties in the clubhouse and this was followed by Dunn's request to have his house completely redecorated, this was the last straw and his employment as Clubmaster was terminated in September 1886. He received ten pounds to soften the blow and continued to be employed by the Green Committee as Keeper of The Green.

Seymour's instruction methods were used by the top pro's including Walter Hagen, Gene Sarazen and Jim Barnes.

On a Saturday morning Tom Dunn stood at the first tee where he would dispose of two big sacks of remade 'six pennies' to trainloads of golfing youth out for a day from Edinburgh. The timber club makers workshop on the West Links, North Berwick was taken down in 1887 and a new building designed by Tom Dunn erected. It had a workshop and a large ajoining room with lockers for rent which Tantallon Golf Club used for their meetings. This building remains as the present professional's shop beside the first tee.

In 1889, Dunn left for France without informing the Greens Committee and his employment was terminated by letter. On 8th November 1889 Tom Dunn replied.



Good call regarding the Gate green at North Berwick.  Simply stunning.

MM
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #47 on: August 18, 2014, 09:51:30 AM »
What , no response to "the gate" sixteenth at North Berwick West being the finest Biarritz green?

I have been waiting for someone to say that it is not a real Biarritz because it is not a par three or some other lame reason. Fact is is this is the original "Biarritz" of them all! Tom Dunn grew up playing the golf course at North Berwick West and was well acquainted with the "gate" 16th green as a youth. He modified the green at North Berwick and created a template which he further used in Biarritz, France.



Tom was diagnosed with blood poisoning and advised to recuperate in the South of France while his son John looked after the business in North Berwick. In the winter of 1887 Tom Dunn joined his brother Willie at Biarritz Golf Club in France where they laid out the Le Phare course. He used the three level layout on the 16th at North Berwick on several greens at Biarritz and the design is now called a 'Biarritz Green'.




Malcolm:

Three thoughts:

First, we're talking about the MRB template hole here, which is derived from what CBM saw when he visited Biarritz.  The direct inspiration for these holes was the course in France, not North Berwick.

Second, CBM's wrote about the particular hole at Biarritz that he borrowed the concept from, and those words specifically note features short of the green, not a green with a swale running through it.  In particular, he discussed a hogsback feature that had to be played over short of the green.

Third, I'd like to know where the author of the piece you cited got the information in the quote I included.  Specifically, in all of the old photos of the Biarritz course I've seen (which I admit are limited), I have not seen anything that looks like the green at North Berwick.  If indeed Dunn built several three tiered greens at Biarritz, it would be interesting to know what holes, and to know if they were still in existence when CBM visited (as we now know the famous Chasm Hole was not there when he first played the course, and was not the inspiration for the Biarritz template).

All the best,

Sven

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #48 on: August 18, 2014, 10:11:25 AM »
Sean,

I think it just may have been the lay of the land rather than a green constructed by man

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #49 on: August 18, 2014, 10:18:40 AM »
Sven brings up a very good point. The "green" on a Biarritz hole is past the swale. Anything short of the swale is the approach, whether it is maintained as putting surface or fairway height.

Modern adaptations, including the holes I posted photos, may be able to pin the front (or even the swale: yuck!) but that was NEVER the intent of the design. I like front sections maintained as putting surface because that promotes a fast and firm approach, but the pin should never be up front, unless you are just fooling around...

I think it is important for those of us on GCA.COM to note this, and NOT use the phrase "Biarritz Green" to mean a double-sided green divided by a swale.

So Mucci, your thread really deals with what is past the swale at Forsgate!

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