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Bill Brightly

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #100 on: August 21, 2014, 10:50:28 AM »

I think EVERY Biarritz hole should have the front section maitained at fairway height.

Do you mean at green height?

Yes, sorry. Modified post. Thanks.

Bill Brightly

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #101 on: August 21, 2014, 11:29:46 AM »
Enough to know that Modern Apizza is better than either of Pepe's or Sally's.

Enough to know how long of a walk it is from the Golf Course to the Yale Bowl.

Enough to know that the name on the bench by the first tee is that of my old Judo master.

Enough to know that it is possible to run a shot on to the back tier.

Sven,

How much and how often are you willing to make that bet.

For you, the betting window will remain perpetually open.

I've hit good, low drivers that landed on the first tier and not one of them managed to get more than a foot above the swale leading to the back tier.

Most ended up back in the swale.

And that's with a ProV1 and a graphite shafted Taylor driver.


Pat's reaction to the difficulty of reaching the back section at Yale really makes the point: the difficulty of the demand at Yale was so great that the designed approach needed to be modified to allow for front pin locations. That is natural and logical. If a very fine golfer such as Pat finds it virtually impossible to run a ball through the swale, how could the powers in charge of the course at Yale expect the membership as a whole to play this hole? It's logical that Yale was the first (or second) course to make this change.

What is NOT logical is to think that Seth Raynor came up with this idea and designed the hole with a front and back section. That would have been a FANTASTIC example of Seth breaking out of CBM's template feature instructions. The problem Pat has is that Raynor did NOT break out in this type of way. He may have "scaled up" the features but he did not improvise. If Raynor planned on two putting surfaces at Yale, why did he not repeat this at later courses? Why did Banks not do this at any of his courses? The logical answer is that the front putting section was a "committee-inspired" change, perhaps an attempt to shut up people like Pat. :)



In writing about Lido in Scotland's Gift we get a great insight into Macdonald. He says "I knew that no improvement could be made over the great holes which I had reproduced at The National." In other words, he would not react favorably to Raynor altering the BASIC design concepts of a Biarritz. Although Macdonald did not build a Biarritz at National, he did build these holes at subsequent courses. Use logic to imagine what CBM would have said if Raynor decided to make such a MAJOR alteration at Yale... Even if you believe that Macdonald approved the change, it would have been so noteworthy that he certainly would have written about this new fangled Biarritz in Scotland's Gift.  Rather, he simply includes the scorecard which shows a hole of 210 yards from the regular tees...
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 11:40:58 AM by Bill Brightly »

Jim Nugent

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #102 on: August 21, 2014, 02:08:02 PM »
Bill, once again, Raynor designed and built a flat Alps hole.  Why is it such a stretch to believe he might put the swale in the green on a Biarritz? 

Bill Brightly

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #103 on: August 21, 2014, 03:00:47 PM »
Jim,

Where is the flat Alps hole? Sorry, I don't want to read this whole thread again.

Raynor would not build a front putting surface because that defeats the entire purpose of a Biarritz hole. The idea was to hit a low running shot through an APPROACH flanked by hazards. Put a pin on the approach and the entire strategy is changed.

The Biarritz was a critical part of Macdonald's overall design strategy: a great course must have one shotters of varied length: a Short to test the accuracy of a player's short irons, an Eden for mid irons, a Redan of slightly longer length and the Biarritz, the longest par three which required the player's maximium distance. Read Scotland's Gift, CBM went over the top discussing precise lengths. He was not shy... he was emphatic about length of holes.

Putting a pin on the approach of of a Biarritz is fun, perhaps you could call it whimsical. Macdonald didn't design that way and neither did Raynor.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 03:41:57 PM by Bill Brightly »

Jim Nugent

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #104 on: August 21, 2014, 03:50:29 PM »
The flat Alps is at Yeaman's Hall. 

Jim Nugent

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #105 on: August 21, 2014, 04:59:07 PM »
One reason Raynor may have designed and built Yale's Biarritz to include the swale: because the tee is so elevated, and he knew it would be hard to impossible to run a shot from the front to the back, unless both were part of the green.  i.e. the very reason someone suggested earlier in this thread, only instead of it taking place after the course opened, Raynor with CBM's counsel foresaw the problem during design.  I'm no architect, and I've only seen the course in pictures, but it was one of the first thoughts that crossed my mind. 

This also could be why he did not design Fishers that way.  That hole does not play downhill, and doesn't need that extra boost to chase balls to the back. 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #106 on: August 21, 2014, 07:05:22 PM »
One reason Raynor may have designed and built Yale's Biarritz to include the swale: because the tee is so elevated, and he knew it would be hard to impossible to run a shot from the front to the back, unless both were part of the green.  i.e. the very reason someone suggested earlier in this thread, only instead of it taking place after the course opened, Raynor with CBM's counsel foresaw the problem during design.  I'm no architect, and I've only seen the course in pictures, but it was one of the first thoughts that crossed my mind. 

Jim,

Given the depth of that swale, it's almost impossible to run a ball through it.
A ball would run much further back if there were no swale.


This also could be why he did not design Fishers that way. 
That hole does not play downhill, and doesn't need that extra boost to chase balls to the back. 

The extra boost you speak of doesn't exist in physics.
If you take a ball, place it at the crest of the front tier, and just nudge it forward, it will not gain sufficient momentum to propel it half way up the slope on the far side of the hill.

The notion that the swale somehow increases the speed of the ball, from entry to exit, is a myth.


Sven Nilsen

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #107 on: August 21, 2014, 07:33:11 PM »
Here's Bahto on an unrelated topic:

"Along the same line of thinking (we've spoken about this before), to simulate agood Redan today it should be BARELY reachable on the fly by the best players. When the bulk of golden age Redans were built the better players were only carrying the ball 180-190 yards in the air."

So if good players were carrying the ball 180-190 in the air, how would it have been possible for them to have flown the ball all the way to the back portion of the green back then.  Pat has insinuated that the hole has been lengthened since the course opened, but by all early accounts the hole measured 225 on opening day from the back tees.  Even if those measurements were to the middle of the back section, shots would have to have been played short and run up. 

A key component to all Biarritz holes is judging the landing spot, the bounce and the run out.  Hit it into the swale, and the ball might land on the upslope and not release.  Hit it short and let its momentum carry it through the swale, and you had a chance.

On Pat's contention that a ball could not run through the swale, I'd ask him if its possible to putt from the front to the back. 
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #108 on: August 21, 2014, 09:45:49 PM »
Here's Bahto on an unrelated topic:

"Along the same line of thinking (we've spoken about this before), to simulate agood Redan today it should be BARELY reachable on the fly by the best players. When the bulk of golden age Redans were built the better players were only carrying the ball 180-190 yards in the air."

So if good players were carrying the ball 180-190 in the air, how would it have been possible for them to have flown the ball all the way to the back portion of the green back then.  Pat has insinuated that the hole has been lengthened since the course opened, but by all early accounts the hole measured 225 on opening day from the back tees.  Even if those measurements were to the middle of the back section, shots would have to have been played short and run up. 

A key component to all Biarritz holes is judging the landing spot, the bounce and the run out.  Hit it into the swale, and the ball might land on the upslope and not release.  Hit it short and let its momentum carry it through the swale, and you had a chance.

This proves my point.
With a 225 yard hole with a green measuring 65 yards, front to back, the mid-point of the green would be 197 yards.

If the best golfers only carried the ball 180-190 yards, they couldn't reach the swale on the fly.
And those are the best golfers.
Hence your theory about golfers playing the hole by landing on the downslope of the swale is flawed because they couldn't reach the downslope on the fly.

Balls landing on the front tier would have no chance of rolling on the front tier, down and up the slopes of the swale and onto the back tier., especially if it was owed asfairwayversus green


On Pat's contention that a ball could not run through the swale, I'd ask him if its possible to putt from the front to the back. 

Neil Regan might be able to execute that shot without destroying the green


Sven Nilsen

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #109 on: August 21, 2014, 10:14:51 PM »
Yet the back area was grassed as green and was pinned.  How could the anyone get to that back location without running the ball back there?

And if they couldn't fly it there, and as you say, reach it by running it back there, why was it grassed as a green?
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

DMoriarty

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #110 on: August 21, 2014, 11:40:25 PM »
Yet the back area was grassed as green and was pinned.  How could the anyone get to that back location without running the ball back there?

And if they couldn't fly it there, and as you say, reach it by running it back there, why was it grassed as a green?

Mystery solved. The hole was apparently a par four.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #111 on: August 22, 2014, 12:38:29 AM »
Yet the back area was grassed as green and was pinned.  How could the anyone get to that back location without running the ball back there?

And if they couldn't fly it there, and as you say, reach it by running it back there, why was it grassed as a green?

Mystery solved. The hole was apparently a par four.

Now that is funny.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Bill Brightly

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #112 on: August 22, 2014, 08:20:12 AM »

On Pat's contention that a ball could not run through the swale, I'd ask him if its possible to putt from the front to the back. 

Of course Pat could. And if Pat's driver only flew 190 in the air and he hit it with overspin or a draw, that would also go through the swale and reach the putting surface. Especially if the first bounce was on a non-irrigated, hardpan approach. Tough shot? Absolutely. But not impossible.

Tim Martin

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #113 on: August 22, 2014, 08:26:59 AM »

Tough shot? Absolutely. But not impossible.

There you have it. As far as Pat booking all bets why wouldn't he as the deck is stacked in his favor. Probable no but impossible hardly.


Bill Brightly

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #114 on: August 22, 2014, 12:42:22 PM »
This is the point in a long thread where Pat usually says: "you guys are right, I was wrong." :)

But I'll take his bet as long as I get to putt from any part of the front section with a clear line to a back pin. I will emulate the roll that Raynor envisioned!

I mean, for cripes sake, we are talking about Seth "the Engineer" Raynor here, not Tom Doak or Bill Coore ... Do you think Seth said, "Oh my God, this beautiful natural swale is too steep for a typical Biarritz shot to work. I certainly don't want to move dirt and alter the swale and/or the height of the putting surface, so I'll just chuck Macdonald's Biarritz concept out the window and create a cool new hole type. Old Charlie just loves it when I wing it and take what the land gives me. I'll just get me some more charcoal and create a FRONT AND BACK putting surface! It'll be great, but I will never repeat this again, because I don't like to repeat things."

 
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 12:50:00 PM by Bill Brightly »

Jim Nugent

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #115 on: August 22, 2014, 01:10:38 PM »
Bill, maybe Charlie suggested the idea.  CBM was an important consultant at Yale. 

As for why Raynor never repeated the concept, he didn't have the opportunity: he passed away, before Yale even opened IIRC. 

Bill Brightly

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #116 on: August 22, 2014, 02:15:25 PM »
Bill, maybe Charlie suggested the idea.  CBM was an important consultant at Yale.  

As for why Raynor never repeated the concept, he didn't have the opportunity: he passed away, before Yale even opened IIRC.  

Raynor died in 1926. The planning for Yale began in 1923. Yeamans Hall, Fox Chapel, Blue Mound, Wailee, CC of Charleston and Fishers Island all were built later. Raynor did not conceive of a two-part green at Yale nor any of these subsequent courses... Charles Banks, who was with him at Yale, finished several of the courses above, and built about a dozen of his own Biarritz holes, all with fairway-height approaches. Banks wrote far more than Raynor, yet he never wrote about a two-section putting surface at Yale, did he?

The idea that Macdonald came up with the concept is really far-fetched. Call him pompous if you want; he was convinced that his ideal holes were so good that there was no room for improvement. Macdonald wrote about Yale and never talked about a two-sectioned green. If you know anything about CBM, you can be certain that he would have taken full ownership of this MAJOR deviation to the design and play of the Biarritz. This would have probably received a full chapter in Scotland's Gift... Yet all he talks about is how much land had to be cleared, how much it cost, and what a great test of golf the course presented.

What you and Pat seem to fail to grasp is that a Biarritz hole is ALL about creating a difficult approach, an approach flanked by sand or water hazards. When you cut holes in the approach and call it putting surface, you create a nice, mid-range par three, but it is no longer a Biarritz. There is no more long one shotter on the course; no more test of a player's ability to hit a low, running tee shot.  If Sven is disappointed when he has to play to a front pin, imagine what Macdonald would have said? He must be spinning in his grave!
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 02:40:22 PM by Bill Brightly »

Jon Cavalier

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #117 on: August 22, 2014, 03:49:34 PM »
"Oh my God, this beautiful natural swale is too steep for a typical Biarritz shot to work. I certainly don't want to move dirt and alter the swale and/or the height of the putting surface, so I'll just chuck Macdonald's Biarritz concept out the window and create a cool new hole type. Old Charlie just loves it when I wing it and take what the land gives me. I'll just get me some more charcoal and create a FRONT AND BACK putting surface! It'll be great, but I will never repeat this again, because I don't like to repeat things."

Bill, I can't say whether Raynor built the front of the 9th at Yale as fairway or green, but I sure as hell enjoyed imagining him standing on site and saying these words. Well put.
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Neil Regan

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #118 on: August 22, 2014, 10:02:02 PM »

On Pat's contention that a ball could not run through the swale, I'd ask him if its possible to putt from the front to the back. 

Neil Regan might be able to execute that shot without destroying the green



Pat,
  The most recent time that I played Yale, the pin on #9 was cut in the front, tight right, two paces from the gully.
My tee shot finished back left, about as deep as a pin might be cut.
The putt through the gully is one that I have never left that green without trying.
My putt was good, just 5 feet past the cup. My friend Doug, from the gully with the same break, drained his.

Don't ask how my tee shot got to the back left.
You don't want to know.  ;)



Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #119 on: August 22, 2014, 10:14:24 PM »
Are we ready to put this one to bed yet?
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

DMoriarty

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #120 on: August 23, 2014, 06:46:18 PM »
Quote from: Neil Regan link=topic=59352.msg1397781#msg1397781 date=1408759322
Don't ask how my tee shot got to the back left.
You don't want to know.  ;)
[/quote

Driver, wedge?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jud_T

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #121 on: August 23, 2014, 10:15:38 PM »
Perhaps due to some geographic bias, I would also consider #6 at Shoreacres.
If a certaine premise is that many Biaritz greens are similar, then SA differentiates (to me) by being in such a beautiful setting.

Well bunkered, deep green that can stretch the hole to just short of 220 yards, the sixth at SA also comes at a great time in the routing and sequence of holes.

I love Shoreacres, but I think the Biarritz is one of the weaker holes on the course.  IMO Yale is in a class by itself and Tamarack is the best of the traditional biarritz's I've seen.  Chicago Golf would be in the discussion if they maintained the front section to receive a running shot.  Old Mac is a very interesting interpretation as well. Now I guess I need to make a better effort to see Forsgate.  
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 10:18:33 PM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #122 on: August 24, 2014, 12:54:10 AM »
Jud T,

You won't be disappointed.

While the setting and elevation don't match Yale, the green is vastly superior.

The swale is of significant size, allowing for various hole locations and the back tier is quite unique, with the horseshoe spine.

Since the tee and green are similarly elevated, the hole presents more options of play than those Biarritz's where the tee is elevated far above the green.

You'll like Forsgate as it has a good number of interesting holes.

DMoriarty

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #123 on: August 24, 2014, 01:20:09 AM »
Jud,

No. 8 at Old Mac is a really neat hole, and I love the wild swale in the green, but I have trouble thinking of it as a Biarritz because in IMO it lacks what to me is the most essential element of the original biarritz concept - length. 

Variety was the key to CBM's approach to design, and this meant that he was careful to build holes of different lengths to offer golfers different challenges on as many holes as possible. Thus the spacing between the distances of the par threes, with the Biarritz (where built) requiring a long tee shot where even the good golfer might not be able to carry to the green surface.

This is also why I respectfully disagree with Patrick's argument re Yale.  The Biarritz greens were supposed tempt but just be just out of reach of all but the best shots, and I have a hard time believing he/Raynor would have designed a watered down version of the concept at Yale.   Not trying to open up on Yale again just stating my opinion.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jud_T

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Re: Is the 17th at Forsgate the best Biarritz green in golf ?
« Reply #124 on: August 24, 2014, 07:54:00 AM »
Those of you who haven't seen Tamarack need to get out there if for no other reason than to see the 12th (the Punchbowl 11th isn't too shabby either).  The hole plays 222 from the tips, the tee is level with or even slightly below the green, the bunkers are fearsome, particularly on the left side where they extend well below the green, the swale could conceal all the little people from the Wizard if Oz holding a square dance and there is also the horseshoe element to the back tier.  I've never seen them pin the front section.  Unless you can spin a sky high 6 iron from 215, a running shot is the only way to get it to hold the back tier successfully.  I may have some pictures I will try to dig up later..
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 08:16:24 AM by Jud_T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak