Wow, everyone is in agreement?
I guess put me down for a "disagree" then (especially if "by a significant margin").
My reasons:
- Greens: I go the exact opposite way - for the most part, I prefer subtle, and what some call "bold" on Blue, others might call "tricked up"
- Due to its angle of fairways and presence of hazards (sand and water), Red provides more "risk/reward" shots off the tee than Blue
- As to all that water on Red? You need to hit a REALLY bad tee shot for it to come into play on most of the holes. I say this as someone who is not a very precise driver of the golf ball
- Routing: while #7 is a great hole and is fantastic looking, the routing on Blue has to be dinged due to the fact that you need to walk back along that bridge, practically back to the tee. I seem to recall a long walk from #16 Blue to #17 tee as well.
- Speaking of best holes, #16 might be the best Biarritz anywhere
- Finish: as much as I like #18 Blue, the short par 5 #18 on Red is an amazing match play hole and terrific finisher
Bottom line: I loved both courses, but after 2 trips now and ~3-4 rounds on each, I would give the nod to Red over Blue.
OK, with that you can all go back to your sucking up
Kevin,
I did enjoy the finisher at the Red (particularly the green, which is one of the boldest on the course), but I found the 18th at Blue much more thrilling because of the variety of shots you could hit into that green. Also, less related to the architecture, I preferred the setting of 18 Blue, which plunges through the gap in the dunes toward the clubhouse, to 18 Red, which is isolated and gives off a feel of "what, this is 18?".
I don't have a huge problem with the walk over the bridge on 7, especially since you are taking in some of the most unique golf landforms with which I'm familiar along the way. I agree that it isn't ideal, but it doesn't take major points away in my book.
Come on. 7 is a great hole, but if you're making a big deal about the routing, you can't ignore the awkward walk back and bottleneck that occurs as a result
I enjoy the Blue routing more because of its constant change in direction, which is especially effective on a course where wind is everything.
Holes 10-14 essentially play in the same direction. Every time I have played there, it has been dead into a severe wind. Maybe I was just unlucky, but that made this stretch just too brutal for me (especially 11), and a little monotonous. Not sure how you think it's a "constant change?"
In general, I prefer a routing with a few jogs between holes but constant change of direction to a routing that has all tees close to greens but runs in a circle or line. Red doesn't make a perfect circle necessary, but the positioning of the holes gives it a feel of aloofness that is a bit of a turnoff for me.
I think risk/reward is a quality that's broad and difficult to define, but I'll try to list some holes on the Blue where "risk/reward" is abundant:
While I think Blue is terrific, I take some issue with your "risk/reward" assessment:
1. Take on the green side bunkers with driver.
Unless you are HUGE with wind behind, you're not hitting this green. In fact, if wind is coming across, with the elevated tee, I am just happy to be in the fairway. It's a wedge in then so not much "reward" for any risk
2. Gamble with the bunker and scrub on the right to catch the turbo boost.
ok
3. Hug the water to get the shorter approach to the green (particularly from the back decks).
That's a lot of risk for little reward. And there's no penalty for staying well clear of water
4. Hug the bad country left to shorten an otherwise daunting approach.
ok. great hole
6. Driver will risk finding that gnarly fairway bunker 50 yards short, but it could also find the green.
again, only true if you're huge with wind behind. I see this more of a choice of which side of the bunker you go for.
9. Hug the bunkers right for a chance at the green in two (applies to big hitters only)
this will not apply to 99%+ of golfers. that said, I love the tee shot on this hole over the bunkers. reminds me of stonewall north #3
11. Thread the needle left to shorten the approach.
you mean so you can hit 3 wood coming in instead of driver off the deck? I am confused about all the complaints about #1 on Red but none on this one. With wind in the face this isn't a half par hole - it's a 5
13. Pull out the big gun and drive the green, or find all sorts of trouble along the way.
ok. great hole. and yes it has suckered me in pretty much every time
14. Classic diagonal tee shots to start a short par five.
ding ding ding!!! this is EXACTLY what I like about many holes on Red - the angled fairway
17. All about the carry on second shot.
It provides a very interesting 2nd shot on a par 5, but I wouldn't call it "risk/reward". If you can comfortably clear the bunkers with your 2nd shot, you do it. If you can't, you don't.
The other non-par-three holes (8, 12, 15, and 18) carry plenty of drama not otherwise related to "risk/reward" characteristics. Do you think Red has more thrills than this? I can think of plenty of holes on the Red (1, 3, 10, and 12 come to mind immediately) where this is limited risk/reward tradeoff. But unlike the holes listed on the Blue, which still carry plenty of width to allow freedom and creativity, these non-RR holes on the Red are more penal, asking the golfer to buckle down and hit some fairways. It's not the worst type of golf in the world, but I'm much more inspired by what I see at the Blue.
As I said before, I love the Biarritz at 16 Red, but I don't think it's quite long enough. I'll take 9 at Yale, or even 3 at Hackensack, because it calls for a 3-wood instead of a long iron.
I think the greens are more of a personal call than anything. I've always lusted for big contours in my greens, but some guys don't dig that.
Final note on Blue: holes 10-14 essentially play in the same direction. Every time I have played there, it has been dead into a severe wind. Maybe I was just unlucky, but that made this stretch just too brutal for me (especially 11), and a little monotonous.
Now to Red:
1. The much maligned 1st hole is no "gentle handshake" - but it gets the blood pumping. Taking the right side gives you a better approach
2. classic angled fairway - can take a more aggressive line flirting with water, or may need to take less than driver or may end up in sand. great short par 5
3. another angled fairway, this time on a short par 4 - can take driver and have wedge in, or play safe and have a mid iron
4. a truly driveable par 4, yet with a bold (but not over the top) green
5. angled fairway
7. angled fairway with an amazing visual off the tee. reminds me of the 6th at Friar's Head
9. go for green or lay up
10. not risk/reward hole...but has a subtly tricky green
11. go right of center line bunkers for easier approach or safer play short/left?
12. tough, long par 4 - but if you smoke your drive down the left side, you will have a much shorter approach. but you're flirting with trouble and will have a partially blind approach
13. right of center line bunker has shorter approach to green and chance to reach in 2, but more trouble over there
15. not much of a risk reward...but what a terrific looking hole
16. if the pin is back, from the back tees this plays well over 200. with wind in the face this can play 240. how long do you want the hole to be? I think it's a better Biarritz than Yale (which I love).
17. classic angled fairway
18. very reachable par 5 with aggressive line with your tee shot over the left bunker. I think it's appropriate that this hole have the "boldest" green since that allows a shorter but accurate hitter a chance to halve/win the hole
Look - I'm not saying I don't like Blue. Quite the opposite! But Red is terrific and in my book is a slightly better course, and find the notion that Blue is "significantly" better as borderline absurd. I also take issue with it being black and white as "strategic" or "penal" - most courses have elements of both. I agree that Red is more penal, but think it is just as strategic, if not more so.
I think Mike Keiser said he would split 4 rounds at Streamsong 3 at Red and 1 at Blue. I would be 2 on each, but if only had one round to play it would be on Red (though then be sure to hit blue with my next trip!)
How would you split 4 rounds at Streamsong?
Anyway - fun discussion and interesting analysis.
Kevin