[JNC Lyon]

And I think it's better by a significant margin.

WHY, you ask?

- The routing. While the Red essentially runs in a circle after the initial six-hole loop, the Blue meanders across the property in a much more enjoyable way. The Blue has a very intimate feel to it, with several previews and teases of holes to come. On the other hand, Red's holes are much colder and isolated because of the routing shape.

- The flows of holes. Red stuffs its short par threes and fours into the early part of the round, but the fun ends with the uphill short four at 9. After that, the golfer needs to clamp for a long succession of difficult golf holes. In contrast, Blue jumps around between small ball and big ball throughout the round. The short three and short four at 5 and 6 are sandwiched between the stout 4th and the trouble-laden 7th and 8th. Scoring opportunities come at 13 and 14 after back to back beasts at 11 and 12, but before menacing finishers at 16 and 18.

- The best holes at the Blue outdo the best of the Red. 7, 11, 14 and 16 are phenomenal holes on the Red, but the best holes at the Blue were both more unconventional and more inspiring. I got a kick out of the short three at 5 and the short four at 6, and I've never seen back to back holes where, if creative, the golfer would only have to hit one non-putter shot. 11, for my money, is a tremendous long par four with one of the best greens I've ever seen. It smacked of 13 at Prestwick, which is also one of my favorites in the genre, and I could have spent 20 minutes there trying all kinds of clubs and shots from inside 40 yards. Oh yeah, and the final four holes at the Blue might be my new favorite finishing quartet in golf.

- The greens. I've always preferred bold to subtle, and while there are some understated greens on the Blue (16 immediately comes to mind), the brash contours we are used to from Doak are in full force here.

A quick match play between the courses has Blue winning 4 & 3 (and that's before Blue's killer final three).

I have my opinion. What say you?

[Josh Tarble]

I agree with you on part one. I enjoy SS Blue much more than SS Red and think it's the better course. Like you said, it has a great ebb and flow to it. Hard stretches followed by easy all while being super fun.

I disagree with you on it having the better holes. I do love the ones you mentioned, and for my money 1-7 is right up there with best stretch of holes in the world. However, I think the Red has the best holes. 4,5, 13, 14 are great and in my opinion the best par 3, 4 and 5 are all on the red. 7 is easily the best par 5 for me. 15 is a spectacular par 4 and while 16 is great, I absolutely love the short par 3 8th.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JNC,

Bill Brightly and I tend to agree with you.

I think the Red starts too hard and that the back nine is too hard.
It's certainly a terrific golf course, just too difficult for me to enjoy day in and day out.

The Blue is challenging, but, more fun for me to play.

So, you can add our votes to your poll.

Interestingly, when Bill and I were having dinner with his cronies, we were outvoted on the question by a margin of 11-2.

[JNC Lyon]

JNC,

Bill Brightly and I tend to agree with you.

I think the Red starts too hard and that the back nine is too hard.
It's certainly a terrific golf course, just too difficult for me to enjoy day in and day out.

The Blue is challenging, but, more fun for me to play.

So, you can add our votes to your poll.

Interestingly, when Bill and I were having dinner with his cronies, we were outvoted on the question by a margin of 11-2.

Pat,

I'm glad you and Bill agree. I think the "challenging but fun" idea really sums what the Blue has and what the Red lacks a little bit.

Bill, were those Hackensack guys? If so, I may have to have a chat with Tim Lane...

I agree with you on part one. I enjoy SS Blue much more than SS Red and think it's the better course. Like you said, it has a great ebb and flow to it. Hard stretches followed by easy all while being super fun.

I disagree with you on it having the better holes. I do love the ones you mentioned, and for my money 1-7 is right up there with best stretch of holes in the world. However, I think the Red has the best holes. 4,5, 13, 14 are great and in my opinion the best par 3, 4 and 5 are all on the red. 7 is easily the best par 5 for me. 15 is a spectacular par 4 and while 16 is great, I absolutely love the short par 3 8th.

Josh,

On the Red, 5 is a solid par four, but it's not something I haven't seen before. I also enjoyed 4, but, from what I've seen, it's really just a template hole for Crenshaw and Coore. I agree with you that 7 Red is a phenomenal par five, but I thought 17 Blue was nearly as good. For short par threes, I much preferred 5 Blue, which seems like it would provide more variety on a day-to-day basis (including the opportunity to putt to a front pin from the tee) while also giving the golfer a greater sense of terror because of the abyss to the left. I'm a sucker for a good Biarritz, so I love 16 Red, but I'd argue it's a little short for the full Biarritz effect.

15 Red is a slightly different question for me. Yes, it is a tremendous long par four, but it also comes after you've been pummeled by long fours at 10, 11, and 12 and then probed by a fearsome ridge-line three at 14. Individually, all of those holes are solid, solid, solid. When you take them right on top of one another, it's overwhelming unless you are striping your long irons that day.

When I look at a course, I'll try to assess the holes individually, and then I'll try to decide whether those holes work well together as a collection. Blue meets both criteria, while Red, for me, only meets the first.

[Rees Milikin]

I agree with you but it took me multiple rounds on both to come to this conclusion. 

[Tim_Weiman]

JNC,

Bill Brightly and I tend to agree with you.

I think the Red starts too hard and that the back nine is too hard.
It's certainly a terrific golf course, just too difficult for me to enjoy day in and day out.

The Blue is challenging, but, more fun for me to play.

So, you can add our votes to your poll.

Interestingly, when Bill and I were having dinner with his cronies, we were outvoted on the question by a margin of 11-2.

Pat,

I also concluded that the start of the Red took away a lot of enjoyment from the course. Much preferred the Blue.

[Bill Brightly]

Bill, were those Hackensack guys? If so, I may have to have a chat with Tim Lane...

All Hackensack guys except for Pat and one Arcola guy. I recall the vote being a little closer, but ALL of the low single digit handicaps preferred the Red and I know why. The Red presents it's challenges in a straightforward manner, while the Blue confuses and frustrates good players. Doak is an acquired taste.I really like the Red but I find it better if you move up a set on the back nine, except the par 5's, which I think are better from the tips. I think that is a problem if an average-length hitter like me feels compelled to alter tees like that.

[Josh Tarble]

JNC,

I agree that Blue 17 is a fantastic par 5, but it really only asks whether or not you can carry the cross-bunkers on the second shot.  I prefer Red 7 because the strategy is a bit more subtle.  Go left and tempt the water to avoid the upside down bunker or play safe and have a blind shot over a unique hazard. 

I also really liked Blue 5, that is definitely the second best par 3 on the property IMO.  However, I excluded it from being the best because the back of the green is so severe.

Like you, I think the holes work together better on the Blue though.  It's sum is greater than the parts, which is impressive because the individual holes are so good on their own.

Regardless, you could do much worse than playing the Red or Blue on a daily basis.

[Jim Franklin]

I got Blue winning 1 up.

[Mark Fedeli]

Count me in agreement on pretty much all that you mentioned.

Strategically, Blue was far more interesting than Red. It required decision-making that you just don't typically encounter in that number on modern public courses. There were stretches of Red that I thought had a beautiful, casual flow, sitting very nicely and naturally on the land (8,9,10,11 come to mind), but they didn't make up for the lack of bold, uniquely interesting strategic holes. Plus, though I didn't find myself in it, I thought water was brought into play far too often on Red, which only added to the sense of sameness.

[Jon Cavalier]

Whenever anyone asks me about to compare the courses at Streamsong, I always give the same answer:

Red is prettier, Blue is the better golf course.

[Richard Choi]

JNC, your brown-nosing is strong...

[Joe Bausch]

I've been in a handful of conversations where this 'Red vs Blue' topic has come up.  And the split probably favors the Blue, but it hasn't been overwhelming.

And rarely do I hear anyone say they dislike either course.  It just seems to be degrees of love.   

Sure appears SS has done a real nice job with these two courses.  If they build more on the site, I hope they'll be received as well as the originals.

[Kevin_D]

Wow, everyone is in agreement? 

I guess put me down for a "disagree" then (especially if "by a significant margin").

My reasons:
- Greens: I go the exact opposite way - for the most part, I prefer subtle, and what some call "bold" on Blue, others might call "tricked up"
- Due to its angle of fairways and presence of hazards (sand and water), Red provides more "risk/reward" shots off the tee than Blue
- As to all that water on Red?  You need to hit a REALLY bad tee shot for it to come into play on most of the holes.  I say this as someone who is not a very precise driver of the golf ball 
- Routing: while #7 is a great hole and is fantastic looking, the routing on Blue has to be dinged due to the fact that you need to walk back along that bridge, practically back to the tee.  I seem to recall a long walk from #16 Blue to #17 tee as well.
- Speaking of best holes, #16 might be the best Biarritz anywhere
- Finish: as much as I like #18 Blue, the short par 5 #18 on Red is an amazing match play hole and terrific finisher

Bottom line: I loved both courses, but after 2 trips now and ~3-4 rounds on each, I would give the nod to Red over Blue.

OK, with that you can all go back to your sucking up 

[Joe Bausch]

Just coincidentally I have reprocessed both of my SS photo albums based upon two visits in the past couple of years. 

I think they are nicely improved:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/SSBlue/

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/SSRed/

[Tom_Doak]

I look at this thread with bemusement, because I routed some of the holes on the Red course that have been singled out as the least attractive, and Bill routed some of the holes on the Blue course that are seen among the most attractive.  [Of course, that would likely be the case, since Bill did a couple of 18-hole routings using the whole site, before I tried to expand it to 36 holes.]

The parts of the ground that we chose last, to get to 36 holes, were 1-6 and 9-13 on the Red course, and 9-14 on the Blue.  It was inevitable that some of those holes weren't going to be as dramatic as the others.  It was a tough call that we had to sacrifice a bit of one 18-hole course to build a second 18, but Mosaic definitely wanted two courses, and we didn't think any of the other sites they had would be nearly as good as expanding the main site to 36 holes.  It sounds like they are going to build another course someday, so maybe then we will see whether we were right.

The magazine raters still seem to have the two courses very close together ... they were just rated #12 and #14 among the 100 Best Courses You Can Play by GOLF Magazine [Red slightly higher].  I haven't seen the whole list yet, but that sounds like pretty good company.

[Chris DeToro]

I just noticed that in Golf Magazine as well.  I think the cool part about the whole Streamsong facility is how both courses seem to sort of act in tandem as opposed to competing with each other which adds to the "which one is better" conversation

[Rees Milikin]

I look forward to seeing what the future holds for Streamsong.  The potential for more great courses is there and I wouldn't be surprised to hear something soon in regards to a 3rd course.

[JNC Lyon]

JNC, your brown-nosing is strong...

I'll take Smails if nobody wants him…

Wow, everyone is in agreement?  

I guess put me down for a "disagree" then (especially if "by a significant margin").

My reasons:
- Greens: I go the exact opposite way - for the most part, I prefer subtle, and what some call "bold" on Blue, others might call "tricked up"
- Due to its angle of fairways and presence of hazards (sand and water), Red provides more "risk/reward" shots off the tee than Blue
- As to all that water on Red?  You need to hit a REALLY bad tee shot for it to come into play on most of the holes.  I say this as someone who is not a very precise driver of the golf ball  
- Routing: while #7 is a great hole and is fantastic looking, the routing on Blue has to be dinged due to the fact that you need to walk back along that bridge, practically back to the tee.  I seem to recall a long walk from #16 Blue to #17 tee as well.
- Speaking of best holes, #16 might be the best Biarritz anywhere
- Finish: as much as I like #18 Blue, the short par 5 #18 on Red is an amazing match play hole and terrific finisher

Bottom line: I loved both courses, but after 2 trips now and ~3-4 rounds on each, I would give the nod to Red over Blue.

OK, with that you can all go back to your sucking up  

Kevin,

I did enjoy the finisher at the Red (particularly the green, which is one of the boldest on the course), but I found the 18th at Blue much more thrilling because of the variety of shots you could hit into that green. Also, less related to the architecture, I preferred the setting of 18 Blue, which plunges through the gap in the dunes toward the clubhouse, to 18 Red, which is isolated and gives off a feel of "what, this is 18?".

I don't have a huge problem with the walk over the bridge on 7, especially since you are taking in some of the most unique golf landforms with which I'm familiar along the way. I agree that it isn't ideal, but it doesn't take major points away in my book. I enjoy the Blue routing more because of its constant change in direction, which is especially effective on a course where wind is everything. In general, I prefer a routing with a few jogs between holes but constant change of direction to a routing that has all tees close to greens but runs in a circle or line. Red doesn't make a perfect circle necessary, but the positioning of the holes gives it a feel of aloofness that is a bit of a turnoff for me.

I think risk/reward is a quality that's broad and difficult to define, but I'll try to list some holes on the Blue where "risk/reward" is abundant:

1. Take on the green side bunkers with driver.
2. Gamble with the bunker and scrub on the right to catch the turbo boost.
3. Hug the water to get the shorter approach to the green (particularly from the back decks).
4. Hug the bad country left to shorten an otherwise daunting approach.
6. Driver will risk finding that gnarly fairway bunker 50 yards short, but it could also find the green.
9. Hug the bunkers right for a chance at the green in two (applies to big hitters only)
11. Thread the needle left to shorten the approach.
13. Pull out the big gun and drive the green, or find all sorts of trouble along the way.
14. Classic diagonal tee shots to start a short par five.
17. All about the carry on second shot.

The other non-par-three holes (8, 12, 15, and 18) carry plenty of drama not otherwise related to "risk/reward" characteristics. Do you think Red has more thrills than this? I can think of plenty of holes on the Red (1, 3, 10, and 12 come to mind immediately) where this is limited risk/reward tradeoff. But unlike the holes listed on the Blue, which still carry plenty of width to allow freedom and creativity, these non-RR holes on the Red are more penal, asking the golfer to buckle down and hit some fairways. It's not the worst type of golf in the world, but I'm much more inspired by what I see at the Blue.

As I said before, I love the Biarritz at 16 Red, but I don't think it's quite long enough. I'll take 9 at Yale, or even 3 at Hackensack, because it calls for a 3-wood instead of a long iron.

I think the greens are more of a personal call than anything. I've always lusted for big contours in my greens, but some guys don't dig that.

[Rob Marshall]

I'm heading to Clearwater in November and I'm going to head down there one day to play one of the two courses. I haven't had much luck with caddies lately and I was wondering if both courses require a lot of local knowledge or can  I make it around ok with a yardage book? I'm a scratch player. When I played in Ireland there were some courses that you wouldn't have clue where to hit without some help. Is streamsong like that? Thanks.

[Bill_McBride]

I'm heading to Clearwater in November and I'm going to head down there one day to play one of the two courses. I haven't had much luck with caddies lately and I was wondering if both courses require a lot of local knowledge or can  I make it around ok with a yardage book? I'm a scratch player. When I played in Ireland there were some courses that you wouldn't have clue where to hit without some help. Is streamsong like that? Thanks.

First time around there could be some head scratching, but the yardage books are good. 

In November you're unlikely to play alone, and someone in the group is bound to have a caddy who will at least point in the right direction. 

[Rees Milikin]

I'm heading to Clearwater in November and I'm going to head down there one day to play one of the two courses. I haven't had much luck with caddies lately and I was wondering if both courses require a lot of local knowledge or can  I make it around ok with a yardage book? I'm a scratch player. When I played in Ireland there were some courses that you wouldn't have clue where to hit without some help. Is streamsong like that? Thanks.

I have done just fine without a caddy.  The yardage book and the abundance of sprinkler heads with FMB yardages are more than enough help.  The only issue you will have is knowing pin placement, which a range finder will help you, but not enough.

[Chris DeToro]

Agreed--no caddy here and didn't have an issue.  The courses are pretty much out in front of you.  There are tricks that you certainly wouldn't know without having played it a few times, but definitely manageable

[Rob Marshall]

Thanks guys.

[Jason Topp]

I prefer Red.  Hole by hole the courses come about even with Red 3 up after 9 and Blue evening it out on the back.  I prefer Blue tee to green but Red once you get there. 

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