[Jeff Shelman]

My very first newspaper job was in the dump of a town know as Danville, Ill., about 90 minutes west of Indy. I also spent a couple of years living two hours in the other direction in Cincinnati.

I agree that Indy is underrated and there is some good public golf. I like Trophy Club quite a bit and thought Purgatory was pretty good. I don't like Brickyard nearly as much.

It's a nice town with some good golf options.

[Nigel Islam]

My very first newspaper job was in the dump of a town know as Danville, Ill., about 90 minutes west of Indy. I also spent a couple of years living two hours in the other direction in Cincinnati.

I agree that Indy is underrated and there is some good public golf. I like Trophy Club quite a bit and thought Purgatory was pretty good. I don't like Brickyard nearly as much.

It's a nice town with some good golf options.

Brickyard is the place to play golf for the non GCA crowd. It's very cool playing inside the track.

[Josh Tarble]

Josh, I agree with everything you said, but I would probably steer someone in the direction of a Eagle Creek before Sahm if they were doing a Dye tour. Surely the added nine didn't destroy it that bad? I do like Sahm too, but Dye fans are going to recognize more at EC.

BTW I know a great tour guide at Broadmoor

Eagle Creek is an interesting one. I have never really thought much of it, but there are some really good holes out there. The property is excellent.  I never played it before they added the additional nine but have heard they mucked it up pretty badly. To be honest, I probably would point someone to Eagle Creek first, but Sahm may be a bit more interesting just because of the timeframe when it was built.

[Andy Troeger]

Now, it can be difficult to define the line of inclusion for some of these cities- for example, does Raleigh get credit for Pinehurst? But under a "standard" definition I think three of these stand out as the best for golf, and oddly enough they are three of the coldest: Columbus, Indianapolis, and Rochester. The site of this year's PGA Championship, Louisville, probably ranks at the bottom to be honest. Anybody disagree?

Valhalla by itself puts Louisville ahead of some of those other cities. New Orleans seems like it might be at the bottom. I've never heard of anyone going to Virginia Beach either (not counting Williamsburg). Grand Rapids, Hartford, and SLC don't strike me as being ahead of Louisville either.


Josh,
I think the tree removal had commenced at Broadmoor, I played in 2006. To be honest, it is just one of those courses that doesn't do much to inspire me. Taking out more trees could certainly have helped some, and the greens are pretty cool, but I just don't think the terrain allows for enough variety to elevate it to the level of the best courses in the state. I did like #4 and #14.

[John Kavanaugh]

Wolf Run is the only course I have ever played that I would pay to never play again. Simply horrid combination of wetness and pretentiousness. .

[Nigel Islam]

Canyata is only an hour from the airport.  Has it become part of the Indy discussion?

I thought it went with Evansville

[John Kavanaugh]

The OP grew up next to Canyata.  Just giving a homer a chance to throw some love. Oddest thing, Shivas caddied for the owner once back in the day. Me, I love Canyata, great course shit on by a bunch of hipster critics.

[Josh Tarble]

Andy,
That's fair...and there are some relatively basic tee to green holes out there.  I am just enamored with the green complexes though.  I'd say if you enjoy tee and approach shots, you'd probably like Wolf Run and Crooked Stick much better, but if you prefer interesting greens I (as I do) I think Broadmoor would be higher on your list. 

That being said, Wolf has some of the most varied green complexes I've seen.  Tilted, mounded, tiny, large you name it and Wolf has it.  I still don't think they're quite the level of Broadmoor's though.


John,

Wolf did just get a new super, so maybe they saw the same issue you did.  Also, they don't have greenside fans so surprised you didn't like it.  How would you say it compares to Victoria National?

And my issue with Canyata is a little more personal.  I think it could have been a catalyst for golf in our town.  Possibly let some of the locals play a few times a year, allow some kids to caddie in exchange for a high school tournament, stuff like that.  Instead golf in our town is dying. But I'm not building a course anytime soon, so who am I to judge?

[Jud_T]

Josh,

I agree that Indy flies under the radar.  I really liked Broadmoor and Harrison Hills and was pleasantly surprised by Trophy Club.  I'm sure I'd also enjoy the Ross Course at French Lick as well, not to mention Culver and Maxincuckee.  Perhaps no world beaters, but a lot more really solid golf, and very good public access, than one might expect.  Like Milwaukee, the town gets somewhat overshadowed by Chicago.  I agree that the greens at Broadmoor are very good.  I could happily play it every day.  

[Andy Troeger]

Josh,

Don't get me wrong, I like interesting greens. I just don't find that courses that have good (or even great) greens but are lacking elsewhere to be among my favorites. Truthfully, a lot of Ross courses fall into that category. I attempt to make a similar argument about Pinehurst #2.

On the other hand, Crooked Stick could be even better if the greens were more interesting. I think they used to be, but have been flattened over time.

[JLahrman]

How is Coffin these days? I played there once about 15 years ago; I don't remember hating it.

[Josh Tarble]

I was under the impression that Dye actually spent several weeks at Broadmoor studying the greens before he built Crooked Stick.  Then in the mid-80s flattened some of the contours out due to green speeds.  That seems very unfortunate to me.


I would call Coffin below average.  There are some decent holes out there, but a lot of it is crammed in and not really conducive property to good golf.  I also think they operate with about 0 budget, so the course is in unplayably bad condition about 80% of the time.  It is a bit unfortunate as I do like the stretch of 13 - 17 especially.

[Adam Warren]

There are about 20 cities in America with a metro population of 1 to 2 million, which is what I would consider "midsize".

Columbus, OH
Indianapolis, IN
Austin, TX
Nashville, TN
Virginia Beach, VA
Providence, RI
Milwaukee, WI
Jacksonville, FL
Memphis, TN
Oklahoma City, OK
Louisville, KY
Richmond, VA
New Orleans, LA
Hartford, CT
Raleigh, NC
Salt Lake City, UT
Birmingham, AL
Buffalo, NY
Rochester, NY
Grand Rapids, MI

Now, it can be difficult to define the line of inclusion for some of these cities- for example, does Raleigh get credit for Pinehurst? But under a "standard" definition I think three of these stand out as the best for golf, and oddly enough they are three of the coldest: Columbus, Indianapolis, and Rochester. The site of this year's PGA Championship, Louisville, probably ranks at the bottom to be honest. Anybody disagree?

Phil I would rank Louisville ahead of at least Nashville.

If we were talking strictly public courses Louisville would be right there at the bottom with the likes of Nashville, New Orleans, etc.  I think the private courses give it a little help- Valhalla, Louisville CC, Big Spring, Hurstbourne, Persimmon Ridge, etc.

For the size, I would like to think Indy is one of the few spots you could go spend a week and play a very nice, interesting course or two each day.  What other cities could you spend 7-10 days playing as many good courses as you can in Indy?  Certainly can't think of any of them on the list provided by Phil.

[Richard Hetzel]

How is Coffin these days? I played there once about 15 years ago; I don't remember hating it.

I played it two summers ago, I can post pics if you like. I didn't hate it, but it isn't a course I would take the time to play again. A few cool holes, some pretty tight holes, and it was in pretty good shape.

[JLahrman]

How is Coffin these days? I played there once about 15 years ago; I don't remember hating it.

I played it two summers ago, I can post pics if you like. I didn't hate it, but it isn't a course I would take the time to play again. A few cool holes, some pretty tight holes, and it was in pretty good shape.

It was in 2001 when I played it, right after I started grad school at IU in Bloomington. A guy in my class took me up there. It seemed to be an OK course at a decent price in a central location. Every city needs a few of those.

[Richard Hetzel]

How is Coffin these days? I played there once about 15 years ago; I don't remember hating it.

I played it two summers ago, I can post pics if you like. I didn't hate it, but it isn't a course I would take the time to play again. A few cool holes, some pretty tight holes, and it was in pretty good shape.

It was in 2001 when I played it, right after I started grad school at IU in Bloomington. A guy in my class took me up there. It seemed to be an OK course at a decent price in a central location. Every city needs a few of those.

A good Muni for sure. I'll see if I can dig up the pics that I took

[John Nixon]

Every hole that Pete Dye constructed for the original Eagle Creek, both the Championship 18 and the 9 hole course, are still there. 9 additional holes were added years later, and 2 full 18 hole courses came out of it. Neither of those is the original Championship course, but I don't think I'd say it's mucked up. You just have to play 2 rounds to get to play all of the original Championship 18   

Coffin has some very tight holes, but so do lots of more highly rated courses. I play it 5-6 times a year. It suffers horribly from lack of proper maintenance. Whether that's due to budget considerations or something else I don't know. I think the quality of its design is underrated.

Sahm's a nice muni. They've just lost a lot of ash trees due to the emerald ash borer. We'll see if that turns out to be a good thing or a bad thing.

[Nigel Islam]

Every hole that Pete Dye constructed for the original Eagle Creek, both the Championship 18 and the 9 hole course, are still there. 9 additional holes were added years later, and 2 full 18 hole courses came out of it. Neither of those is the original Championship course, but I don't think I'd say it's mucked up. You just have to play 2 rounds to get to play all of the original Championship 18   

Coffin has some very tight holes, but so do lots of more highly rated courses. I play it 5-6 times a year. It suffers horribly from lack of proper maintenance. Whether that's due to budget considerations or something else I don't know. I think the quality of its design is underrated.

Sahm's a nice muni. They've just lost a lot of ash trees due to the emerald ash borer. We'll see if that turns out to be a good thing or a bad thing.

John, I always loved the Indy city courses. A very good collection which at times obtained decent maintenance. Eagle Creek was the cream of the crop back around the turn of the century  and Coffin was #2.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Wolf did just get a new super, so maybe they saw the same issue you did.  Also, they don't have greenside fans so surprised you didn't like it.  How would you say it compares to Victoria National?

Josh,

If Wolf Run doesn't believe that they need fans to protect their turf then I owe them an apology.  The people at TurfBreeze list them as a customer.  http://www.malibu-tech.com/Brochure2011.pdf

I really can't compare Wolf Run to Victoria National but would always choose a top tier course without fans over one with.

[Kevin Stark]

Highland Country Club (private) is actually a Willie Park Jr. and Bill Diddel course, although I’m not sure how much of either is still in the ground.

The routing is Willie Park Jr. but the green complexes are Bill Diddel, as he oversaw the construction in the field. Diddel also did a renovation in the early 50's but it appears that this was largely to remove many bunkers and to reshape a few bunkers. The club did a wretched tee and bunker renovation in the early 90's that butchered the place. We completed a bunker renovation this year at the direction of Ron Kern that restored the original style and location of the bunkers originally built by Diddel. We did not recreate all of the original bunkers, as there were over 100 when originally built, but every bunker that exists on the course now is in the location and style of Park/Diddel from the early 1920's.

We've also removed over 400 trees over the past 5-6 years, although one might look at the course today and ask "where?" as we still have quite a bit of work to do on that front. We have approximately 150 trees still to remove to fully implement the master plan that Ron built for us.

[Kevin Stark]

John,

Wolf did just get a new super, so maybe they saw the same issue you did.  Also, they don't have greenside fans so surprised you didn't like it.  How would you say it compares to Victoria National?

Josh,

If Wolf Run doesn't believe that they need fans to protect their turf then I owe them an apology.  The people at TurfBreeze list them as a customer.  http://www.malibu-tech.com/Brochure2011.pdf

I really can't compare Wolf Run to Victoria National but would always choose a top tier course without fans over one with.

The new super has made enormous improvements in the conditioning at Wolf Run. The greens are back to what they were ten years ago and they may be the truest surfaces I've ever played. The "unmaintained" areas need a bit more work, as proper long fescue has been invaded by native shrubery in quite a number of those areas. I suspect that those areas will be brought back over time, if the current path on green and fairway maintenance is any prediction of the future for the rest of the property.

I haven't seen a fan out there this year, but I'm not there frequently. If they would remove trees in the area around Little Eagle Creek and the hill above it, which I believe the new super plans to do this winter, I can't ever envision a need for fans.

[Richard Hetzel]

Josh, I agree with everything you said, but I would probably steer someone in the direction of a Eagle Creek before Sahm if they were doing a Dye tour. Surely the added nine didn't destroy it that bad? I do like Sahm too, but Dye fans are going to recognize more at EC.

BTW I know a great tour guide at Broadmoor

Eagle Creek is an interesting one. I have never really thought much of it, but there are some really good holes out there. The property is excellent.  I never played it before they added the additional nine but have heard they mucked it up pretty badly. To be honest, I probably would point someone to Eagle Creek first, but Sahm may be a bit more interesting just because of the timeframe when it was built.

I think I will try and play 36 at Eagle Creek before fall is over…Indy has much better golf than Cincinnati.

[Josh Tarble]

Highland Country Club (private) is actually a Willie Park Jr. and Bill Diddel course, although I’m not sure how much of either is still in the ground. 

The routing is Willie Park Jr. but the green complexes are Bill Diddel, as he was oversaw the construction in the field. Diddel also did a renovation in the early 50's but it appears that this was largely to remove many bunkers and to reshape a few bunkers. The club did a wretched tee and bunker renovation in the early 90's that butchered the place. We completed a bunker renovation this year at the direction of Ron Kern that restored the original style and location of the bunkers originally built by Diddel. We did not recreate all of the original bunkers, as there were over 100 when originally built, but every bunker that exists on the course now is in the location and style of Park/Diddel from the early 1920's.

We've also removed over 400 trees over the past 5-6 years, although one might look at the course today and ask "where?" as we still have quite a bit of work to do on that front. We have approximately 150 trees still to remove to fully implement the master plan that Ron built for us.

Very interesting Kevin. Admittedly, I don't have much experience with Diddel's work, having only played CCI and Meridian Hills. Both are overly clogged with trees IMO, and it takes out some of the strategic nature of his dogleg holes.  From the sounds of it, Highland could end up being a great example of his work. I need to make an effort to check it out.

[BCowan]

Thought this was interesting regarding Highland G &CC.  (Park Jr & Diddel)


http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/First-phase-of-Highland-Golf-and-Country-Club-restoration-project-concludes

[Nigel Islam]

Thought this was interesting regarding Highland G &CC.  (Park Jr & Diddel)


http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/First-phase-of-Highland-Golf-and-Country-Club-restoration-project-concludes

Yes very interesting. Bill must have been very young at the time. That would have been a tough team to beat in a real match! Highland is a course that I did not get to see when I lived in Indy.

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