Something's really, really wrong around here.

[Patrick_Mucci]

And it's Rory's driving distances on a course that some are describing as lush.

I thought driving distances had topped out ?

Rory averaged about 347 on his drives on several holes.

Rory isn't 6'5" and 240 lbs, so why are his drives going so far ?
Farther than he's driven it in the past ?

[William_G]

he hits a mile, mostly carry

[Brent Hutto]

Clubhead speed, delivered squarely to the ball with an upward angle of attack. All with a club/shaft/ball combination that is 100% optimized for his swing.

[jeffwarne]

Nope, you and I are alarmists Pat.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

Driver wedge every hole at a course that was once considered very long and hard, and if this soft the experts would talk about it playing excessively long.

The reality is this is what it looks like when an elite player uses a driver every hole-they often don't, because they often/usually don't have to.
and make no  mistake, Rory is elite.

Golf courses are getting more and more bifurcated every day-adding to the length of time it takes to play golf.
But, though quite educated, this forum mirrors most golfers and we rollbackers are in the minority, so the outcry is shouted down.
This forum has had a dramatic effect on course design, but could do so much more-but many don't want to give up their precious few yards, while the game gets bigger, and less interesting, every year.

Interestingly, if the elite could step away from the equipment endorsement scene for even a minute, they would see they would benefit most from curtailed equipment, which brings greater parity to the game at the expert level, and makes it more difficult for them to separate themselves from players who can simply hit fairway woods and hybrids off tees on courses that no longer fit Tour level players armed with jacked equipment.

Back to my luddite cave now.

[Tom_Doak]

Interestingly, if the elite could step away from the equipment endorsement scene for even a minute, they would see they would benefit most from curtailed equipment, which brings greater parity to the game at the expert level, and makes it more difficult for them to separate themselves from players who can simply hit fairway woods and hybrids off tees on courses that no longer fit Tour level players armed with jacked equipment.

The elite players DO understand this.  They are just reluctant to say so, because of who pays their base salary in a down year.

The problem on this web site is, there isn't anybody who is an elite player ... just many who would like to think of themselves as such.  Those are the guys the equipment companies are REALLY counting on.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Thank G-d Pat's only worried about Rory's driving distances! From the thread title I thought he'd joined PPallotta's Meta Thread Movement.  

[Jay Flemma]

I agree with Jeff and Pat.  We have to do something about this...they are not playing the same game as everyone else.  It's time to go the baseball route and make them use persimmon woods.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shivas,

My last shot on # 18 at Firestone, from 180 was one of my best shaped 4-irons to 15 feet.
These guys are hitting 8-9-W over the trees.

How can an architect design a course to accomodate and challenge all level of players ?

[Adam Warren]

It's because "lush" has different meanings.  Watch the ball bounce and roll when these guys hit it.  Sure, everything is optimized, but almost any course that we play we can't get 60 yards after first ground contact.  Even what we call "firm and fast."  The courses most of these guys play are "firm and fast" in the fairways.  They are cut tight.  They might be green too, but they are cut tight and play to bounce and roll the ball.  We might not hit 360 yard drives (BUBBA 424!!!)  but a number of us would improve our driving distance by 20-30 yards by playing on the conditions these guys do.

[RJ_Daley]

My mind set this evening on this leans towards fogetaboutit.  We are all just howling into the wind with all the notions that we can lobby or post more exasperated laments about the ball and implement technology, bifurcate competition rules and limit them, etc.   We all know and say the same stuff over and over about how this never ending distance race is just costing more and making golf more inefficient in design and maintenance, let alone the more level playing field.  Too much power in the form of profits or even just keeping the register ringing with tightening profits or revenues will work against we few who are probably on the right side rationally, but just aren't going to make a dent against the multi forums of marketing the game from playing associations to equipment to maintenance products.  We just don't have the horsepower to effect change.

And, the average consumer will seemingly pay up the added costs that golf facilities charge in green fees or memberships, to an extent for those high end courses to keep upgrading and lengthening to stay relavant in the competitive arena for the 1% that have the actual skills and length and game to actually play 7500-8000 yard courses.

The vast majority of memberships are not gaining enough in the length category to make use of the lengthened for elite competition players.  The PGA or some elite amateur event may come to your course that has been altered by added length to challenge them.  But, 95% of us are still going to be average 10-15 handicaps and not rationally able to play much over 6600-6800 yards. 

I think the best we can do as those who may have the game's best interests at heart with our continuous cautions about all the bad side effects of technology and distance enhancement, is to encourage remodel and renovation designers and the powers that be that hire them to make their courses elite competitive for the very few elite - to not loose sight of who plays 95% of the rounds and their actual distance and skill ability.  Make sure the modernized designers never by pass the average player skill set, or castigate them as blockheads who aren't good at their design-architecture craft.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tournament golf should require persimmon and balata.

[Greg Tallman]

Rory benefits more than anyone when fairway conditions get soft. How many of his shots today would have bounced deep in the rough?

Not taking anything away from today's most talented player but he has perfected the bomb and gouge game. I still doubt he will display the consistency anywhere that of tiger in his day.

[jeffwarne]

My mind set this evening on this leans towards fogetaboutit.  We are all just howling into the wind with all the notions that we can lobby or post more exasperated laments about the ball and implement technology, bifurcate competition rules and limit them, etc.   We all know and say the same stuff over and over about how this never ending distance race is just costing more and making golf more inefficient in design and maintenance, let alone the more level playing field.  Too much power in the form of profits or even just keeping the register ringing with tightening profits or revenues will work against we few who are probably on the right side rationally, but just aren't going to make a dent against the multi forums of marketing the game from playing associations to equipment to maintenance products.  We just don't have the horsepower to effect change.

And, the average consumer will seemingly pay up the added costs that golf facilities charge in green fees or memberships, to an extent for those high end courses to keep upgrading and lengthening to stay relavant in the competitive arena for the 1% that have the actual skills and length and game to actually play 7500-8000 yard courses.

The vast majority of memberships are not gaining enough in the length category to make use of the lengthened for elite competition players.  The PGA or some elite amateur event may come to your course that has been altered by added length to challenge them.  But, 95% of us are still going to be average 10-15 handicaps and not rationally able to play much over 6600-6800 yards. 

I think the best we can do as those who may have the game's best interests at heart with our continuous cautions about all the bad side effects of technology and distance enhancement, is to encourage remodel and renovation designers and the powers that be that hire them to make their courses elite competitive for the very few elite - to not loose sight of who plays 95% of the rounds and their actual distance and skill ability.  Make sure the modernized designers never by pass the average player skill set, or castigate them as blockheads who aren't good at their design-architecture craft.

Thank God Tom Doak in the 80's didn't have the mindset of "fogetaboutit"
he was pissing into the wind about his unpopular beliefs about mainstream architecture far more than us luddites are about equipment, critiquing the signatures and powers that be in the architecture business, even as it would have been FAR SIMPLER for him professionally to have gone with the establishment and praised the crap that was being built and glorified as good in that era.

The pen can be mightier than the sword, it takes time, and eventually courage, for those who stand to gain by standing with the establishment,
to eventually wake up and smell the coffee. A lot of it is simple education.
and pretty soon everyone thinks it was their idea.

[Pat Burke]

Tournament golf should require persimmon and balata.

Again, I will chime in.  And again, I would be okay with an across the board roll back.

But my question is.  Define tournament golf for me?

If I am playing the PGA (Euro, Japan, etc) and playing wood heads and some form of shorter "tournament ball"
for a couple of years
I will have an ENORMOUS advantage over say, a college kid (or any rookie) that qualifies to play, and has to learn how to adjust to
said equipment.
So, maybe mini tour, college and serious amateurs switch, or are mandated to switch.  Now the pebble rolls down to the next level.

Now, I know that great players could be expected to make an adjustment.  But we have seen players switch manufacturers and disappear.  And that is a far smaller adjustment.  Hell, not too long ago, there were "experts" talking about Rory ruining his career by signing with Nike.

In effect. that is why I would favor any roll back being across the board.

<soapbox exited>

[RJ_Daley]

As devils advocate this eve Tim... so they in a fairytale alternate universe as powers that be of golf, R&A, USGA, PGAs and Masters as a pilot trial require persimmon and ballata.  What are the next set of commercials for B&I you may see?  Perhaps the theme, 'you too can hit it as long as the pros with equipment legal for the average hack' (I don't know how far down the skill set you go to allow the high tech stuff).  So, we get 10-15 handicappers hitting the same 260-270 yard tee balls as the elite who are relegated to persimmon/ballata.  Then, as technology always does, improvements get the hacker actually hitting it further than the average pro distance off tee.  Pretty soon hackers get all ho-hum about the skill set of pros and elite on the distance factor and still then ask that their courses be long enough and wide enough to accommodate their longer games with high tech B&I.  Then, once a high-tech equipment player reaches a certain plateau, they want to compete in more elite events and have to re-learn the whole golf swing and dynamics to play with the regulated persimmon and ballata equipment.  

I just don't see it working out...  

[Tom Fagerli]

My mind set this evening on this leans towards fogetaboutit.  We are all just howling into the wind with all the notions that we can lobby or post more exasperated laments about the ball and implement technology, bifurcate competition rules and limit them, etc.   We all know and say the same stuff over and over about how this never ending distance race is just costing more and making golf more inefficient in design and maintenance, let alone the more level playing field.  Too much power in the form of profits or even just keeping the register ringing with tightening profits or revenues will work against we few who are probably on the right side rationally, but just aren't going to make a dent against the multi forums of marketing the game from playing associations to equipment to maintenance products.  We just don't have the horsepower to effect change.

And, the average consumer will seemingly pay up the added costs that golf facilities charge in green fees or memberships, to an extent for those high end courses to keep upgrading and lengthening to stay relavant in the competitive arena for the 1% that have the actual skills and length and game to actually play 7500-8000 yard courses.

The vast majority of memberships are not gaining enough in the length category to make use of the lengthened for elite competition players.  The PGA or some elite amateur event may come to your course that has been altered by added length to challenge them.  But, 95% of us are still going to be average 10-15 handicaps and not rationally able to play much over 6600-6800 yards. 

I think the best we can do as those who may have the game's best interests at heart with our continuous cautions about all the bad side effects of technology and distance enhancement, is to encourage remodel and renovation designers and the powers that be that hire them to make their courses elite competitive for the very few elite - to not loose sight of who plays 95% of the rounds and their actual distance and skill ability.  Make sure the modernized designers never by pass the average player skill set, or castigate them as blockheads who aren't good at their design-architecture craft.

I think 6000-6200 is a more accurate yardage for most 10-15 handicaps. Maybe even less. Preferably even less!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Clubhead speed, delivered squarely to the ball with an upward angle of attack.
All with a club/shaft/ball combination that is 100% optimized for his swing.

He always did/had that.

[BCowan]

PM,

    Rory put on a lot of muscle in the off season.  Makes a huge difference in combination with his young limber body that is elastic.  Unfortunately he has never won on a Firm course which he has noted himself.  Bold contoured greens and firm conditions will stop any onslaught. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

Ron Prichard wrote to the USGA about this problem 30+ years ago.

This weekend I played with a 62 year old who had sextuple by-pass surgery who hits the ball 300 yards.

So, it's not just the tour pros hitting it incredible distances.

But, back to the topic.

Rory's distance seemed to take a quantum leap this week.

WHY ?

[Bill_McBride]

PM,

    Rory put on a lot of muscle in the off season.  Makes a huge difference in combination with his young limber body that is elastic.  Unfortunately he has never won on a Firm course which he has noted himself.  Bold contoured greens and firm conditions will stop any onslaught. 

I guarantee Hoylake was a lot firmer and faster than Firestone.  Hoylake is a links course whether it's rained or not. 

[BCowan]

PM,

    Rory put on a lot of muscle in the off season.  Makes a huge difference in combination with his young limber body that is elastic.  Unfortunately he has never won on a Firm course which he has noted himself.  Bold contoured greens and firm conditions will stop any onslaught. 

I guarantee Hoylake was a lot firmer and faster than Firestone.  Hoylake is a links course whether it's rained or not. 

Hoylake was firmer (no kidding), but it wasn't 06' Hoylake

[David Lott]

Sports Illustrated, April 1960, describing the last two holes in Arnold Palmer's Masters victory:

Only two holes left now. On the 17th, a par-4, 400 yards downwind, the pin was set in the center well to the back of the green on a mild up-slope. After a good drive, Arnold played an eight-iron pitch that hit the middle of the green and sat down quickly, much more quickly than he had bargained it would. It left him about 27 feet below the cup. . . .

. . . . On to the 18th, a par-4 420 yards long, most of them uphill, and the wind against Palmer. As Palmer later related, his first concern was to make sure of his par and a tie with Venturi. He kept his drive away from the right and had a fine straightaway shot at the pin set on the lower deck, a bit to the right. He won the tournament with his approach shot, a six-iron punched a shade to keep it low into the wind.

Read more: http://www.golf.com/special-features/palmer-wins-1960-masters-tournament#ixzz39NyVoXNP

[David Lott]

Jeff,

. . . .

But, back to the topic.

Rory's distance seemed to take a quantum leap this week.

WHY ?

Three possible answers: (1) It didn't take a quantum leap. It just seemed to because we were paying closer attention: (2) He got his equipment tweaked again, and the tweak worked well; (3) He was airing it out a little more.

[I considered but rejected pharmaceutical assistance or illegal equipment. He does not need them and it would be too stupid for words.]

I would not discount reason three. The guy is in a zone and he's very good. But that does not undercut the argument about distance. It amplifies the problem.

[Peter Pallotta]

Pat - I found this most interesting:

"My last shot on # 18 at Firestone, from 180 was one of my best shaped 4-irons to 15 feet. These guys are hitting 8-9-W over the trees."

I had two thoughts when I read that: 1) Ah, good for Pat - it must feel great hitting (and even just being able to conceive of and trying to hit) that shot. 2) Today's pros are better than ever and tearing up golf courses and making tons of money, but they can't possibly be having the same fun/joy that the old-timers did hitting shots like Pat describes when instead they're flinging PWs over trees and straight at the pin.  

All this is neither here nor there, and not the focus of this thread. But that is what I found myself thinking.

Peter

[Bill_McBride]

PM,

    Rory put on a lot of muscle in the off season.  Makes a huge difference in combination with his young limber body that is elastic.  Unfortunately he has never won on a Firm course which he has noted himself.  Bold contoured greens and firm conditions will stop any onslaught. 

I guarantee Hoylake was a lot firmer and faster than Firestone.  Hoylake is a links course whether it's rained or not. 

Hoylake was firmer (no kidding), but it wasn't 06' Hoylake

There haven't been many that were that fiery.  I played there three months later and had started to green up - in spite of media reports that the course was dead! - to a condition similar to this year at Hoylake. 

By contrast Firestone was soggy.  I have no idea how those carry the ball so far.  Well actually I do know how.....