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David Davis

  • Karma: +0/-0
I just watched this youtube video from Global Golf Post and was kind of surprised by Jack's answers. Any thoughts? I'm curious how some of  the other architects might of answered these questions. Sure they were perhaps general in nature but still.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=t42fFgKKinA

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Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
The interviewer should have asked "How is a green surrounded by a moat tasteful and not gimmickry?  Same question for island fairways in water hazards?"

Why is "everyone else" guilty of making courses too hard?  Does Doak?  C&C?
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Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Overall, Jack was fine. It is reaching to be too critical.
Tim Weiman

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Has Jack indeed done the things he mentioned on the more recent golf courses he has designed?

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
The interviewer should have asked "How is a green surrounded by a moat tasteful and not gimmickry?  Same question for island fairways in water hazards?"

Why is "everyone else" guilty of making courses too hard?  Does Doak?  C&C?

I have heard C&C criticized for building courses that are quite difficult of late. 

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Are they TOO difficult?  Out of curiousity, which ones?
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Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Are they TOO difficult?  Out of curiousity, which ones?

Streamsong. Even here it is noted how much tougher the C&C course is opposed to Doak's.

Not saying it is or isn't just saying I have heard that about a course or two from C&C. Were they not brought back in to soften Bandon Trails?

Derek_Duncan

  • Karma: +0/-0
I didn't have a problem with his answers. He seems earnest and introspective and self-aware. There is no one right way to approach design and Nicklaus comes across as honest about searching through the options and evolving.
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Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Jack's interview demonstrate the expertise you'd expect of him?
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2014, 09:33:09 AM »
I thought it was interesting.  I loved the last part when he said he now wanted to build golf courses that were difficult for the accomplished golfers, but still playable for the average golfer.  Seems like I've heard that somewhere before.   8)
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Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Does Jack's interview demonstrate the expertise you'd expect of him?
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2014, 10:13:10 AM »
I'm not sure how much "expertise" should shine through in a five minute YouTube video. I, like Derek, thought his answers were very self-aware and practical. They were also too general to glean much from, but they're consistent with some of the development he has shown in the last decade or two as a designer.

I am interested to listen to Jay's radio show now, as it sounds like he thinks interviewers should behave like Fletcher Reede with Samantha Cole on the stand.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

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Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Jack's interview demonstrate the expertise you'd expect of him?
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2014, 11:13:33 AM »
I would like to see what he has put in the dirt to judge if he is listening to himself.    I know at Harbor Shores - although the site is terrible - he does give the average golfer a lot of room to play - it's just hard to judge that course because the routing is so awful/was so limited in what they could do.

Dismal seems to incorporate many of his concepts...anywhere else?

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Jack's interview demonstrate the expertise you'd expect of him?
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2014, 01:49:10 PM »
Other than the fact that he probably unfairly accused "other" architects, I don't see much to disagree with.  I totally agree that too many courses don't appear to have been designed with regular player's enjoyment in mind.

One of the most annoying things I see it that from tees of ~6000 yards, which is where most in that group should be playing, you see far too little variation in the length of holes within one par category.

When a short hitter like me plays courses with pars threes that vary by 100 yards, fours that vary by 200+ yards and fives by more than 150 yards... all while keeping the total under 6200, a light bulb goes on. It's why I feel bad about the fate of Sugar loaf Mtn., and why I love Elie.

One thing Jack claims to have done years ago, and his three-tee comment refers to it, is eliminate the next from the back tees.  He said that at a GCSAA conference several years ago. He said that observing males golfers taught him that guys would go to this tees, instead of the "white" tees where they belonged. But owners wouldn't let him shorten the back tees.

So instead of 7200, 6900, 6500, he said he went straight to the 6500-yard set. I still think that's too long, and I never checked to see if he actually did to. But I thought the comment was interesting.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Does Jack's interview demonstrate the expertise you'd expect of him?
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2014, 06:45:57 PM »
One thing Jack claims to have done years ago, and his three-tee comment refers to it, is eliminate the next from the back tees.  He said that at a GCSAA conference several years ago. He said that observing males golfers taught him that guys would go to this tees, instead of the "white" tees where they belonged. But owners wouldn't let him shorten the back tees.

So instead of 7200, 6900, 6500, he said he went straight to the 6500-yard set. I still think that's too long, and I never checked to see if he actually did to. But I thought the comment was interesting.


He talked about that at Sebonack at the beginning of the project, but we did not wind up doing it that way ... I think the style of blending the tees into big areas of turf changed the dynamic.  It would have helped at Sebonack; most people play it from too far back and get beat up pretty bad.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Jack's interview demonstrate the expertise you'd expect of him?
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2014, 06:53:27 PM »
Translation:

I'm not an idiot. I'm actually quite smart. These minimalist guys seem to be winning the argument and it's only going to continue one way. I'm therefore going to say a lot of things about recognising the need to return to classic architectural values and actually focusing on enjoyment. I know I said those things about wonderful 'new style' championship courses but I was actually only following orders. Like I said, I'm no idiot so, although I haven't entirely got my head around this architecture thing, I have picked up enough phrases to get me by. After all, I won more majors than anyone else and most people will therefore buy whatever I say about design.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Does Jack's interview demonstrate the expertise you'd expect of him?
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2014, 07:46:26 PM »
Paul:

Your translation is pretty harsh.  In truth, the majority of architects say whatever sounds good at the time.  Jack has always built his courses very wide, though plenty difficult inside the turf lines.

Tom Fazio doesn't, and look how he's getting beaten up for it on a parallel thread right now.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Jack's interview demonstrate the expertise you'd expect of him?
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2014, 08:25:42 PM »
Jack's comment on number of tees: I think he's one short. I think you need Advanced Amateur-member-senior/shorter hitter-beginner/really short hitter.

Agree that the questions are too general to be informative for our liking.
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Peter Pallotta

Re: Does Jack's interview demonstrate the expertise you'd expect of him?
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2014, 09:55:56 PM »
As with the majority of architects, I only know JN's courses from what I read and see on here. But despite that, and despite my fondness for  certain kinds of courses, I always find myself defending JN. (And one interview amongst literally thousands doesn't tell me anything in particular one way or another).

Partly it's because I like him as a person; he seems a very decent man. Partly though it's on principle -- the principle being that JN has as much right as any other working architect to have/strive for a) his own ideas and ideals about what golf courses are and should be, b) his own preferences and tendencies based on personal experiences with the game of golf, and c) his own hierarchy of values, i.e. how he himself ranks in order of importance elements such as happy clients, quality designs, satisfied golfers, architectural legacy, money, a thriving business etc etc.

From everything I've ever read, JN's golf courses "work", and they work on several levels. If, as it seems to me, he has tended to design courses on which very good players can score well and on which hacks can get around without too much trouble, and courses that look and are maintained to a level that helps golfers feel their money (in high green fees) was well spent -- well, that seems to me far from a crime; in fact, it seems like one of several viable and understandable and defensible approaches to gca in the 21st century.

(FYI - I used to play with a fellow who was one of the worst (and shortest hitting) golfers I ever played with; we played/mucked our way around a fine golden age courses in California, and then he was up in Toronto and played the sometime home of the Canadian Open, Glen Abbey...and later told me that he loved it, as it was the easiest course he'd ever played.)

Peter
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 10:54:07 PM by PPallotta »

Tom Bacsanyi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Jack's interview demonstrate the expertise you'd expect of him?
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2014, 11:29:17 PM »
Jack's comment on number of tees: I think he's one short. I think you need Advanced Amateur-member-senior/shorter hitter-beginner/really short hitter.

Agree that the questions are too general to be informative for our liking.

I disagree, if you put together a sensible combo tee with USGA rating/slope, it will have the effect of the "one up from back" tee setup.  There are far too many tee boxes at many higher end clubs.  I really think you only need 3, and combo them to 5 setups.
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William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Jack's interview demonstrate the expertise you'd expect of him?
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2014, 12:47:54 AM »
Jack's comment on number of tees: I think he's one short. I think you need Advanced Amateur-member-senior/shorter hitter-beginner/really short hitter.

Agree that the questions are too general to be informative for our liking.

plus a ladies tee   ::)

It's all about the golf!

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Jack's interview demonstrate the expertise you'd expect of him?
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2014, 06:20:30 AM »
Tom:

I confess to throwing in a spoonful of poetic license.

The point really is though that he's performing an honourable climb down while learning from people that didn't build their careers on the back of a hugely successful career in professional golfer. He can't say that of course because that would explode the myth that being a player makes you a good architect.

I'm always reminded of the similar scenario in football (soccer) where ex-players get the managerial position and argue that years playing the game stands them in stead. Then along comes a Jose Mourinho, the professional manager with no playing career to speak of, and a lifetime of studying strategy blows the ex-player away.   
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Does Jack's interview demonstrate the expertise you'd expect of him?
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2014, 09:29:44 AM »
Paul, what Nicklaus courses have you played?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Jack's interview demonstrate the expertise you'd expect of him?
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2014, 09:35:22 AM »
Here we go. Don't knock Jack because he won loads of golf tournaments and can therefore do no wrong.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what he said though. Actually it does, since what he said was centred around his self acknowledged reappraisal.

Tell me Jason, how did you interpret his words?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 10:38:07 AM by Paul Gray »
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Does Jack's interview demonstrate the expertise you'd expect of him?
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2014, 09:55:23 AM »
I'm not Jud, and I've already posted what I thought of Jack's words.

I just want to know if you've ever played a Nicklaus course, because your comments suggest to me a certain lack of firsthand knowledge about his designs. I can see that you're good at retreading popular Nicklaus narratives from GCA, and I can see that you're willing to make assumptions (such as your assumption that I think Jack can do no wrong because he won a ton of tournaments). But really, how many of his courses have you played? I won't even be a dick about the fact that the answer is almost certainly "zero." I do, however, think you should consider the suppositions you're operating under, considering that I could tell the answer was "zero" by only reading 6 or 7 sentences you wrote.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Jack's interview demonstrate the expertise you'd expect of him?
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2014, 10:00:58 AM »
Jack's comment on number of tees: I think he's one short. I think you need Advanced Amateur-member-senior/shorter hitter-beginner/really short hitter.

Agree that the questions are too general to be informative for our liking.

plus a ladies tee   ::)



I think that's the "shorter hitter's tee" which should a color other than red so senior men won't be embarrassed to play there.  I think some combination like blue / white / gold should handle any course, with perhaps a combo set up.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Does Jack's interview demonstrate the expertise you'd expect of him?
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2014, 10:42:42 AM »
Jason (not Jud. Apologies),

Zero. But it just isn't relevant since the whole interview wasn't about his wonderful successes which he himself was trying to defend but actually about him tactfully admitting to errors. If you honestly don't think he's changed his turn somewhat having recognised the rising tide of minimalism, what prism are you looking through?

Again, how did you interpret his comments about returning to (returning to , not continuing with) a more natural and enjoyable approach to the game?
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich