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Phil Young

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Hubris and a Point of Honor
« on: July 26, 2014, 06:58:21 AM »
Hubris and a point of honor.

In my interview with Ran I speak of the importance of approaching information with “fresh eyes” and give some detailed experiences that I’ve seen during the course of the research work I have done for some clubs.

Well, I can now I fully understand the depth of my own statement on how one can make mistakes in properly understanding for I’ve fallen into the same trap myself. As a result it turns out that some of the details in the story behind the Tillinghast sketches were incorrect.

So, as a point of honor I am coming forward to admit the mistake, explain how it occurred and detail the actual events as they happened doing so directly from photographs of pages from the 1901 journal of Dr. David Scott-Taylor. I intend to answer any and all questions that may/will be asked and any criticisms leveled against me I will accept as being well-earned.

This is the genesis of the mistake’s discovery. At the beginning of this past week David Moriarty sent me a private email cc’ed to Ran in which he challenged the May 11, 2001, date for Tilly having been to St. Andrews. He said that he checked on shipping manifests and found only one and that it showed that Tilly and his wife arriving in Liverpool on July 20th. This was followed by some newspaper citations that showed Tilly playing in cricket matches in Philadelphia in both early and mid-May which would have made it physically impossible for Tilly to have been in Scotland on May 11th, the date I stated for the dinner at the “Scores” Hotel at which the Road hole sketch was to have been signed by Old Tom, MacKenzie, David Scott-Taylor and Tilly.

David did a very good job of research on this. He deserves the full credit for this find and I thank him for it. He chose to present it privately because he said the he was concerned for the hit I would take to my reputation and I believe that. In fact I’m sure that it will quite surprise most to hear that he & I actually spoke on the phone about the issues raised and did so pleasantly and civilly.

In my essay I credit the details surrounding the supposed May 1901 visit to the journals of Dr. David Scott-Taylor. This is where sloppiness on my part came in. I never actually saw the journal pages at the time I looked into the veracity of the sketches after I had been made aware of them by my friend, Ian Scott-Taylor. So how could I make the claim that the information I wrote about was found in them?

It is odd to come forward and admit to a mistake of this type and ask that some trust be given in what I am about to say, but still, that is what I’m doing. If anyone chooses not to give that trust I will understand.

I have been involved with a series of ongoing research projects for the Scott-Taylor family separate from the Tillinghast drawings. I am currently not at liberty to reveal what they involve and will not do so. They involve information found throughout many different volumes of the journals of Dr. Scott-Taylor and in each case I actually did see photographs of the relevant pages from them. They were exactly correct in backing up what the family had told me about the things they had me researching.
So why then didn’t I go through the process of procuring photographic copies of the journal pages for the Tillinghast sketches? My favorite author once wrote, “Logistics is the assassin of ideas.” That is what occurred here, that and hubris.

The logistics involved in getting the photographs of the journal pages for the other research was a long and laborious process due to a private family situation which I will not speak of here. This was greatly compounded by their being in the custody of the family’s solicitor’s in Scotland. Adding to this, it occurred at a time when I was also involved in far too many other research projects and I was flat out exhausted by the time I got to the Tillinghast sketches.

The hubris of not having the “fresh eyes” that I so pride myself in having comes in my belief that the information provided to me about how and when Dr. David Scott-Taylor received the Road hole sketch was true and accurate and that because on every other occasion when I needed to verify something similar via the journals that they were correct in every single detail.

That is why I accepted what had been told me by the family as being the truth because I knew they believed it and had gotten to the point where I had no reason whatsoever to doubt it. That was my egregious mistake.

Rather than comparing the mistakes with the new information that I will be shortly presenting and reference further on, I’m simply going to outline what the journals state happened and when. This information comes directly from transcripts of the journal pages referred to and was done by myself. The irony in all of this is that a dinner did take place at the Scores Hotel on May 11, 1901, at which time the Road hole sketch was signed by Old Tom Morris, Alister MacKenzie and Dr. David Scott-Taylor. The 4th person at the dinner was Dr. Scott-Taylor’s brother. Tillinghast was nowhere in sight. 

Although there is a great deal more information especially about the relationships between Tilly, MacKenzie and Old Tom, I will leave those details for you to see when the details are properly and fully posted.

Here then is the chronology of events as told directly in the pages of the journal of Dr. David Scott-Taylor:

May, 4, 2011:
      “Mum gave me my mail at breakfast, got a letter from the United States. Tilly sent with a letter more like a book chapter about golf and cricket, also with 4 hole drawings in it. He promised them at Christmas, guess he forgot.
      “The road hole St Andrews, 4th Machrihanish, 11th Prestwick and Callender golf club, I guess Old Tom made an impression on Tilly the last visit here. I’ll put these with the other two he gave me when I met him, a nice set they’ll make too. All signed by Tilly 1901. By the looks of things Tilly will be here on July 1st so lots to catch up on and he wants to see a first class match whilst he’s here.
      “Must remember to ask Mac next week about the next Roses match at Headingly or Old Trafford and if there is one, can we get Tilly there.”

So Tilly mailed the sketch of the Road hole to him and he received it on May 4, 1901. Two things to note: First that he was planning on asking “Mac” to make arrangements for Tilly to attend a cricket match. A later page details this as actually happening. Second, that it states that it was signed by Tilly “1901.” On the sketch you will see that the word “May” has been added. It is believed that Dr. Scott-Taylor himself wrote that word in possibly to provide a more exact date for when he received it.

May 11, 2001:
      “Well after we finished we down to Old Toms shop in The links Close, you can’t miss it, it has a street lamp outside it, that just happens to light the shop sign, a standing joke with Old Tom who knew the town engineer.
      “I had A.W.Tillinghast’s sketch of the road hole with me and asked Old Tom what he thought and would he sign it?
      “The gruff old bugger looked at me and then the sketch “Mmmm” he said, “does it really look like that to an American now?”
      “He looked at me again and chuckled” I sign it wee David for a price of a dinner,” Done’ said I.’
      “When I told Old Tom that Alister MacKenzie would be there, he gleamed with a mischievous look I have not seen before or since. I also offered Andra [Andra Kirkaldy who is also mentioned by name as being there in the shop] to join us but he had a previous engagement at the Royal Hotel.  Tom explained “drinking buddies.”

Further down:
      “At Dinner Old Tom and Mac where deep in to golf course design and what each would do with ‘Hell’ bunker on the old course, I took this opportunity of pushing Tilly’s sketch up the table to the jousting heroes. 
      “Mac and Old Tom dissected then the Road hole with its good and bad points, the green shape, the Road bunker, my brother was so bored he left for bed, excused himself and left.
      “The Table of three where left to our own devices and conversation.
      “At the end of the night we all laughed loudly, it was a good night.
      “I asked Old Tom to sign the drawing as agreed and to my surprise Mac insisted to add his signature to the drawing. 
      “What a collection for me, and one for the scrapbook, with a grand after dinner story for the future.”

So here we see that the story behind Dr. Scott-Taylor having taken the sketch into Old Tom’s shop, asking him to sign it and agreeing to do so for the price of the dinner is correct and that there actually was a dinner on May 11, 1901, at the “Scores” Hotel at which the sketch was signed by Old Tom and Alister MacKenzie.

May 28, 1901:
      “Got a parcel from Tilly yesterday with the medical journal in it I asked him to get. Will read it in the train on way down.
      “I also got a note from him thanking me for my hospitality in St Andrews, typical of him. He’s a good friend.”

So here we see the irony of the thank-you note. It was written by Tilly on May 12th and because it was in the family documents it became assumed that the reference to the “hospitality in St. Andrews” was referring to the dinner from the night before on May 11th. That is also how the family mixed in Tilly to the dinner by the mistake of not having reviewed the journal pages themselves for a number of years. By that I’m not even beginning to imply that this is their mistake, rather it is stated so that an understanding of how the mistake occurred may be understood by all.

In addition, when you get to read the actual journal page I’m quite certain that all will be intrigued by the reference to what was contained in the medical journal that Tilly sent him.

July 20, 1901:
      “An old friend arrives today with his wife whom I have not met, so this will be a first.
      “The telegram said the ship was to arrive today in Liverpool at the Cunard docks. Tilly and his wife are traveling first class on the Campania, very posh.
      “Arrived in Liverpool around 3pm when I got out of the Station I bought a Daily Post afternoon edition for a read and to see if the Campania had arrived. After finding a café on the High St for tea and bun, I walked over to the hotel. As elegant as ever ‘The Midland’ all the attendants rushing around in white coats very posh indeed. I enquired at the desk if Mr. & Mrs. Tillinghast from America had arrived.
      “The desk clerk informed me they had and he would inform them I was waiting.
      “I felt I was in Parliament.
      “I sat in the foyer waiting for them reading the days news of which there wasn’t much apart from the House of Lord sitting on the Taff Valley case and Morocco signing a deal with France. Tilly walked up with this elegant lady. After our greeting of old friends Tilly introduced his wife Lillian, she was timid and to me a little shy of Tilly. Mmm got me wondering that did.
      “By the sound of things they had a good passage and where glad to be back on dry land.
      “I thanked Tilly for his drawings and told him about the Old Tom dinner, he laughed, and remarked, he would have loved to have been there to join in the discussion.  He remarked he was looking forward to seeing Old Tom and chatting. I‘d like to be a fly on the wall for that I think, so would Mac. Now there’s a dinner table.
      “He also asked if I got the Journal on Heart surgery. I said I did and thanked him for it along with the note. I also informed him of Mac’s (Alister MacKenzie) invitation to Old Trafford on the 25th to see Lancashire and Gloucestershire play cricket and to Leeds to visit Mac before they traveled north to Scotland.

Further down:
      “Tilly was excited in both, though I think Lillian was not as pleased. I think this trip is going to be hard for her, Tilly is quite enamored with the golf course visiting. He produced this box thing, a camera he said looked more like a box for holding tea in to me, well there you go.”

It ends with this observation:
      “I left Tilly sitting in the Lounge ordering another brandy and soda. I just managed to catch the Mail train from Lime Street to Crewe. I got home at about 1.30 am exhausted from the evenings events. It was wonderful to see Tillinghast again and meet Lillian, with much pondering on the train home, she has her hands full and the golf world has a genius or mad man knocking at the door, only time will tell.”

So here we see that the date Tilly arrived in Liverpool matches exactly with the date in the Journal and that both the dinner with Old Tom & MacKenzie and the receiving of his thank-you letter was discussed.

With Ran’s permission I am preparing detailed corrections to the essay that will be inserted and replace the mistaken passages mentioned above. These will include photographs of the actual journal pages so that all will have an opportunity to judge their veracity for themselves and to compare the quotations I cited from them above for accuracy. I will refrain from answering any questions until that is put up as my answers will only reflect the information found there. I would suggest that questions hold until it is put up.

I will, though, answer one of the questions already raised right now. I’m doing so because the answer has been sitting in the wonderful Ed Oden thread “A Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings.” I received the following from Mike Cirba who found it, but first the questions/comments that it answers:

Niall Carlton commented in post #21:
Secondly, the Road Hole sketch defines the fairway. Off the top of my head I'm not sure I've seen this before on sketches of this type. Could be wrong but I thought there was lack of definition back then due to sheep and other grazing animals being unable to graze in a straight line   

David asked this in post #22:
If anyone has any examples of Circa 1900 sketches that include specific fairway lines and/or detailed drawings of the shapes of the tees, I'd love to see them.

I believe this is a proper answer. It is found on page 14 of the thread, comment #347. Cristian’s text accompanying it says, “This is a picture of the 1898 routing of RSG (Sandwich), which is visible on the wall of the men's locker room. It is a beautiful copy of a drawing which my photo does not do justice (especially holes 13 and 14).” Note the fairway lines:


Once again my apologies for making these mistakes. They were made solely by me and I own them. Any criticism for making them is deserved and accepted.

Ian Andrew

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Re: Hubris and a Point of Honor
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2014, 07:59:30 AM »
Phil,

I'm very impressed with what you just shared.
I look forward to reading more of your research.

Sincerely,

Ian

With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Hubris and a Point of Honor
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2014, 08:08:24 AM »

So here we see that the story behind Dr. Scott-Taylor having taken the sketch into Old Tom’s shop, asking him to sign it and agreeing to do so for the price of the dinner is correct and that there actually was a dinner on May 11, 1901, at the “Scores” Hotel at which the sketch was signed by Old Tom and Alister MacKenzie.



If this is true then it is of great interest to us MacKenzie nuts.

All previous information has MacKenzie in Leeds at this time having just returned from the Boer War and resuming his medical practice. That he was discussing golf course architecture with OTM in St Andrews is a great surprise.

MacKenzie appears to have been a relative newcomer to golf in 1901, struggling to break 100 consistently. Why would OTM take his views seriously?

http://www.alistermackenzie.co.uk/


Are you sure that 'Mac' is indeed a reference to Dr MacKenzie?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 08:17:04 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Hubris and a Point of Honor
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2014, 08:49:07 AM »
Duncan. It is indeed a reference to Alister Mackenzie. In the upcoming 18th revision of the Mackenzie a Chronology I have been able to push his earliest golf record back to 1898 at the Leeds Golf Club. He had returned from the Boer War in early 1901 and his experiences there seemed to have piqued his interest in golf design and camouflage.  Why would OTM take his opinions seriously? He wouldn't have I expect if he knew nothing or was talking rubbish but it would seem they could converse happily on this topic.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Hubris and a Point of Honor
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2014, 09:01:28 AM »
Good lord, Phil. If this is what comes of you making mistakes and your hubris and all, please derail us with a thousand more mistakes before whatever comes.

I used to imagine the "man love" scene in "Golf In The Kingdom" as the greatest get-together I'd never attend; now this whole thing with Dr. David, Old Tom, MacKenzie and their ilk replaces it in my log.

I can't say enough of the Personal Message (PM) feature of this site. I'm very happy that you and David were able to communicate behind doors. It demonstrates a remarkable kinship that this site foments. I hope that you two collaborate more and we are able to learn deeply about AWT and his nuanced, early work.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Phil Young

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Re: Hubris and a Point of Honor
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2014, 01:54:43 PM »
I would like to thank all who've shown me such wonderful support both on this thread and privately. It means a great deal...

Bob_Huntley

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Re: Hubris and a Point of Honor
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2014, 03:15:56 PM »
Phil,

Show me a man that has never made a mistake and you will see a man that has never made anything.

I think that David Moriarty deserves gold medal for doing this on IM than through the tree house.  

Bob

Keith OHalloran

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Re: Hubris and a Point of Honor
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2014, 03:16:25 PM »
Phil,
On the other thread, the idea that the drawing were made for artistic purposes was brought up. If I read you correctly, part of your answer was that AWT took trips to study golf courses and the timing of the drawing coincides with a trip and therefore these drawings are architectural and not just artistic (I could have read you wrong). In the diary, it is stated that the drawing were promised for Christmas, and came in May. Does that quote change your opinion at all? Do you feel that these may have been a gift, and therefore artistic in nature?

Phil Young

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Re: Hubris and a Point of Honor
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2014, 10:25:30 PM »
Bob, Thank you for the kind words.

Keith, To answer your question, I am more convinced than ever that these were drawings for study and not artistic work, although Tilly painted and drew throughout his life. I'll give you a longer response in this tomorrow. I came on to share this photograph that was sent to me. It shows sheep grazing on the Old Course in 1897. Note the clearly defined fairway/rough line. The photograph is credited to St. Andrews University.


Jon Cavalier

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Re: Hubris and a Point of Honor
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2014, 12:34:33 AM »
Good lord, Phil. If this is what comes of you making mistakes and your hubris and all, please derail us with a thousand more mistakes before whatever comes.

Hear, hear. What a fascinating post! Thanks so much for the info.
Golf Photos via
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Sean_A

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Re: Hubris and a Point of Honor
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2014, 06:37:30 AM »
Bob, Thank you for the kind words.

Keith, To answer your question, I am more convinced than ever that these were drawings for study and not artistic work, although Tilly painted and drew throughout his life. I'll give you a longer response in this tomorrow. I came on to share this photograph that was sent to me. It shows sheep grazing on the Old Course in 1897. Note the clearly defined fairway/rough line. The photograph is credited to St. Andrews University.



Very fine Phil.  Mistakes aren't often terribly important.  Its what happens afterwards which usually matters much more. 

I see the cut line in the pphoto, but what intrigues me more is the flag in the rough.  Whats the story?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Hubris and a Point of Honor
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2014, 07:38:16 AM »

I see the cut line in the pphoto, but what intrigues me more is the flag in the rough.  Whats the story?

Ciao

Sheep's Revenge Day at the club. They could cut holes wherever they opted. Sheep are vengeful and never forget.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Bill_McBride

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Re: Hubris and a Point of Honor
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2014, 09:34:06 AM »
Bob, Thank you for the kind words.

Keith, To answer your question, I am more convinced than ever that these were drawings for study and not artistic work, although Tilly painted and drew throughout his life. I'll give you a longer response in this tomorrow. I came on to share this photograph that was sent to me. It shows sheep grazing on the Old Course in 1897. Note the clearly defined fairway/rough line. The photograph is credited to St. Andrews University.



How did the sheep know to stop at that neat looking cut line?  Well trained.

Ran Morrissett

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Re: Hubris and a Point of Honor
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2014, 05:41:49 PM »
One thing you never see on this site is someone saying he is wrong. Until now. Phil took it upon himself to set the record straight immediately upon realizing he made some false assumptions. The initial version complete with errors re: the dinner and the genesis of the signing of the Road Hole drawing will stay under the Best of Golf section for the next 5 days. Then, it will be replaced with the updated one with the corrected material/facts as described in Phil’s post above.
 
Bringing such startling material forward as Phil has done re: these two Tillinghast drawings is fraught with concern. And no harsher place than GolfClubAtlas.com with its ever active Discussion Group churning away like a hive of bees! The authentication process goes on and on … and on. You can test the paper (as has been done), you can test the signatures (as has been done), but what about …. the ink?Regardless of this test or that, some people may always doubt the authenticity of the material. Certainly, David Moriarty has a list of concerns which he has voiced directly to Phil. This is all fine and as it should be. Nonetheless, I feel sorry for Phil in some ways because he is precluded from talking about certain matters. So be it.

What I can speak directly to is that I have personally seen with my own eyes proof positive that the paper/journals have been in the care of the lawyers and stored by their firm at their offices since the death of David Scott-Taylor in 1933. To me, that means we are looking at material of age.
 
Phil is heading to the UK in the spring to cull through the journals with the prospect of writing a book on this fellow Scott-Taylor. My understanding is that D S-T is a fascinating man, fighting for instance for health care rights for coal miners forced to work in abysmal conditions. He seems to have been a true gentleman with far ranging interests, a real Renaissance man.
 
Anyway, congrats to David Moriarty for discerning Tillinghast’s stateside presence in May 1901 and congratulations to Phil for promptly - and publically - correcting/updating his research.

Best,

Phil Young

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Re: Hubris and a Point of Honor
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2014, 08:45:11 PM »
Mike Cirba asked me to post this for him:

All,

I found the questions around fairway lines to be very intriguing. Indeed, when did fairways as we know come to be, as sheep certainly aren't discriminating?

Earlier I sent Phil a course drawing from 1898 of Sandwich which seems to indicate fairway lines which he was kind enough to post. However, finding drawings of "single holes" during that time period seems quite the task, which is part of what makes these findings so historically interesting.

In my research, I've found two terms predominantly used; "fairgreen", or "fair green", and "fairway" or "fair way". "Fairway" was a nautical term, which shouldn't be surprising given the growth of the game along seaports.

Here are some early American examples. The first, from a terrific November 3rd Boston Globe article chronicling the clubs around the city, uses both terms interchangeably.



Next, this from the Chicago Inter-Ocean from January 1, 1899;



This one from the Philadelphia Times, November 15, 1901



Craig Disher's photos clearly showing fairway lines at St. Andrews during this time leads me to believe that perhaps mower technology was being used already to supplement the sheep. What light can folks shed on this?

Thanks for an interesting discussion.

Mike


DMoriarty

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Re: Hubris and a Point of Honor
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2014, 02:20:36 AM »
I strongly disagree with Ran's plan to delete the current version of Phil's article in five days. I don't think golfclubatlas.com ought to shield this article (and its problems) from the eyes of future readers or potential purchasers of the Taylor-Scott material.  

At the very least, Phil Young (with the help of Mr. Ian Taylor-Scott) had published a largely erroneous article, and falsely claimed that the details found in the article were from David Taylor-Scott's personal journals. Now they are trying to reverse course by denying that they had been relying on the May 1901 journal entries at all.

Surely, in the minds of some, this brings into question not only their credibility but also the authenticity of the Taylor-Scott collection. The article itself (and the problems therein) are now an important event in the "chain of title."  Future interested parties ought to be able to read the entire story and make their own decisions about the credibility of Phil and Mr. Taylor-Scott and the authenticity of the materials in question.  

Suppose a collector becomes interested in these sketches long after this current discussion has died down. Surely it would be important for the collector to know that Phil Young (with the help of Ian Taylor-Scott) had published a the largely erroneous article, and also that Phil falsely claimed that the details of their article were documented in David Taylor-Scott's personal journals.

Rather than replacing the article, why can't Phil instead attach an addendum at the end of the article explaining and correcting the mistakes?   That way future readers could decide for themselves whether or not the mistakes and changes impact their views on Phil's and Mr. Taylor-Scott's credibility and on the authenticity of the material.

Phil speaks of honor, but where is the honor in trying to erase the evidence of his mistake and taking a mulligan?


___________________________

As Ran suggested, I do have strong reservations about the veracity of the new story and about the authenticity of the supporting materials.  I have brought my concerns to both Ran and Phil privately in the hopes that they would distance themselves and the website from this episode, to no avail.   I will probably raise my concerns publicly before too long, but may try to figure a few more things out first.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 02:23:00 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Sean_A

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Re: Hubris and a Point of Honor
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2014, 04:08:58 AM »
It seems to me that correcting a mistake is the right thing to do.  The approach of newspapers may be apt. Detail the error(s) at the bottom of the piece then make the corrections.  I don't see the point of leaving known mistakes published on a website.  If it were my site, that wouldn't fly.

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Phil Young

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Re: Hubris and a Point of Honor
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2014, 06:44:13 AM »
Sean,

Corrections in newspapers, magazines, journals, etc... are always made in a following issue and usually in a manner that calls as little light to it as possible. In fact, in the case of newspapers, in order to even see ones made even in the last few years, one has to pay a fee in order to see specific individual articles. Anyone who has searched the New York Times archives, for example, is well aware of that.

In addition, one still has to go through the process of locating the correction which becomes nearly impossible. An example of this: many times corrections to articles in journals are made via a "Questions to Readers" section and the correction included right after the one raised. Expecting this to come up in a search via the internet using detailed search terms that greatly limit the search will invariably not show the correction.

The decision to go the route of taking the old essay down and putting the new one up was not taken lightly. The bottom line is that even though the esssay with the incorrect information will not be there, the information detailing them and how it was corrected will be. That is one of the reasons why I started this specific thread. In the future, anyone interested in the history of the "Tillinghast Sketches" will only have to enter those two words into the gca search engine and this topic for discussion will come up. The information will always be there. 

In addition, the corrected essay contains many more photographic images, transcripts and detailed information. Inserting them into specific areas of the existing essay under a different font or text color will produce a document that will be highly confusing. The important thing here is that the information displayed is correct.

Sean_A

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Re: Hubris and a Point of Honor
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2014, 06:54:46 AM »
Phil

I think you get the gist of what I am saying.  Newspapers admit there was an error and then offer a correction.  The important thing is that errors are corrected, but it may not be a bad thing to keep the error on record as appended notes or something like that.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Phil Young

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Re: Hubris and a Point of Honor
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2014, 07:03:14 AM »
Sean,

By the time this thread becomes part of gca's past I'm quite certain that the specific details in question will have been directly quoted here and discussed. This is but one way that they will remain available... 

Phil Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Hubris and a Point of Honor
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2014, 08:40:43 AM »
One other thing that I keep forgetting to answer is a question asked in private messages (not from David) about the flag in the photograph below. The question is "Why is that flag there?"

The answer is that no one can state definitively, especially because its in balck and white. What has been told me is that areas of the course that are near the beach have red and white flags to show that a beach area is nearby. If the flag is red and white, and it certainly hints at that, this may provide teh answer... then again it may not!


Niall C

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Re: Hubris and a Point of Honor
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2014, 12:25:48 PM »
To Mike and others, I heartily recommend Scott Macphersons book on the evolution of golf at St Andrews. If one thing this stooshie has done it has caused me to reread it. In it are various photos similar to the ones posted on this thread that show sheep (c.1914 from memory) as well as fairly undefined areas of short grass. I dare say there are also mentions of mowing machines as well. All I'll say is that it certainly wasn't the convention to show defined fairway lines back then and indeed many representations of St Andrews continued to show no lines for many years to come, witness MacKenzies plan.

Phil

Unless the flag was at the 7th/11th green (which it doesn't look like) then I can't see how it was near a beach.

Niall

Phil Young

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Re: Hubris and a Point of Honor
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2014, 01:53:30 PM »
Niall,

I didn't mean to over imply that was the explanation, just that it might possibly have been one. I haven't been able to find any information on it other than that possibility.

As for defined fairway lines on contemporary plans, the one previously posted above of Sandwhich dated 1898 and which hangs in the clubhouse has definite fairway lines drawn on it as well as definitive teeing areas shaped in different ways to include different ones on holes such as those on 3 & 9.

This means that having these features on ahole drawing wasn't unheard of and I would almost certainly believe that Tilly would have played Sandwhich on at least one of his trips.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 01:59:08 PM by Phil Young »

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Hubris and a Point of Honor
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2014, 02:27:08 PM »
Fascinating read, all of it.
Mistkaesae just that, when corrected all is good....great reasearch anyway, a superb read which conjours up images of staemers and ols style hotel loby meetings....wonderful stuff.