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Andrew Buck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #175 on: July 31, 2014, 04:50:29 PM »
The problem with the article is that its "facts" are so questionably sourced and poorly stated. It cites a decline in play among Millenials. As some have noted, that decline probably makes sense if it's comparing Millenial participation from 10 years ago (when many were teenagers without responsibilities) to Millenial participation today (when many have jobs, children, and bills that keep them off the course). If that's the decline it's referencing, then it's no big deal. However, if the decline is actually in number of players between the ages of 25 and 40, year over year, and if play among that group has comprised 50% of the total decline in golfers, then it's a huge deal. If participation in golf historically shrinks among people between 25 and 40, but grows among people after the age of 40, then the number of golfers in each age group should be pretty consistent from year to year. If there has actually been a precipitous year over year drop among players from age 25-40, then that's a big problem for the game that would signal that younger people are not interested in the game in the same way that they have been historically.

It would be great if we had data showing the historic growth of the game among players in different age ranges that could validate and help make sense of some of the numbers and anecdotal observations being thrown around. For instance, do people really flock to the game as they reach their late 30s/early 40s? What age range comprises the bulk of golfers? What percentage of golfers are comprised by people between the ages of 25 and 40 historically, and how does that number compare to the current number?

I would suspect that the window that people are away from regular golf is a little longer today than a generation ago as well.  I know the average age of first marriage and average age of first child are 3 - 4 years later than 25 years ago.  This gap is likely wider among professionals that are more likely to play golf as well.  That said, I don't think people are golfing that much more in the post school/pre marriage phase as they would in the phase when kids are getting older.  

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #176 on: August 01, 2014, 11:24:43 AM »
The problem with the article is that its "facts" are so questionably sourced and poorly stated. It cites a decline in play among Millenials. As some have noted, that decline probably makes sense if it's comparing Millenial participation from 10 years ago (when many were teenagers without responsibilities) to Millenial participation today (when many have jobs, children, and bills that keep them off the course). If that's the decline it's referencing, then it's no big deal. However, if the decline is actually in number of players between the ages of 25 and 40, year over year, and if play among that group has comprised 50% of the total decline in golfers, then it's a huge deal. If participation in golf historically shrinks among people between 25 and 40, but grows among people after the age of 40, then the number of golfers in each age group should be pretty consistent from year to year. If there has actually been a precipitous year over year drop among players from age 25-40, then that's a big problem for the game that would signal that younger people are not interested in the game in the same way that they have been historically.

It would be great if we had data showing the historic growth of the game among players in different age ranges that could validate and help make sense of some of the numbers and anecdotal observations being thrown around. For instance, do people really flock to the game as they reach their late 30s/early 40s? What age range comprises the bulk of golfers? What percentage of golfers are comprised by people between the ages of 25 and 40 historically, and how does that number compare to the current number?

If they're talking simply about the raw number players in the young adult age range or the ratio of millenials playing to boomers, isn't it true that there are simply fewer millennials than there are are boomers?   Of course, you've adult play compared to young adult play when the boomers shoved their way into the mainstream is down.  It pretty much has to be. 



Yup.  Would be interesting to know, for every 5- or 10-year period going back a few decades, what the ratio of rounds to population  is for various cohorts (25-35, 35-45, 45-55, etc.).  All things being equal, if the population is smaller, you'd expect fewer rounds.   

Josh Tarble

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #177 on: August 01, 2014, 11:26:47 AM »
The problem with the article is that its "facts" are so questionably sourced and poorly stated. It cites a decline in play among Millenials. As some have noted, that decline probably makes sense if it's comparing Millenial participation from 10 years ago (when many were teenagers without responsibilities) to Millenial participation today (when many have jobs, children, and bills that keep them off the course). If that's the decline it's referencing, then it's no big deal. However, if the decline is actually in number of players between the ages of 25 and 40, year over year, and if play among that group has comprised 50% of the total decline in golfers, then it's a huge deal. If participation in golf historically shrinks among people between 25 and 40, but grows among people after the age of 40, then the number of golfers in each age group should be pretty consistent from year to year. If there has actually been a precipitous year over year drop among players from age 25-40, then that's a big problem for the game that would signal that younger people are not interested in the game in the same way that they have been historically.

It would be great if we had data showing the historic growth of the game among players in different age ranges that could validate and help make sense of some of the numbers and anecdotal observations being thrown around. For instance, do people really flock to the game as they reach their late 30s/early 40s? What age range comprises the bulk of golfers? What percentage of golfers are comprised by people between the ages of 25 and 40 historically, and how does that number compare to the current number?

If they're talking simply about the raw number players in the young adult age range or the ratio of millenials playing to boomers, isn't it true that there are simply fewer millennials than there are are boomers?   Of course, you've adult play compared to young adult play when the boomers shoved their way into the mainstream is down.  It pretty much has to be. 



Yup.  Would be interesting to know, for every 5- or 10-year period going back a few decades, what the ratio of rounds to population  is for various cohorts (25-35, 35-45, 45-55, etc.).  All things being equal, if the population is smaller, you'd expect fewer rounds.   

Far too nuanced...much better to scream "golf is dying!"

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #178 on: August 01, 2014, 03:03:28 PM »

. . . .

Yup.  Would be interesting to know, for every 5- or 10-year period going back a few decades, what the ratio of rounds to population  is for various cohorts (25-35, 35-45, 45-55, etc.).  All things being equal, if the population is smaller, you'd expect fewer rounds.    

Far too nuanced...much better to scream "golf is dying!"

Agreed 100%.  I started a similar post a week or so ago, suggesting it would be nice to know numbers of this sort, and more, but then decided, "Who cares?" and dropped it.  I think my experience could play out for many people.  I played a little with my dad and my friends at our family country club from ages 12 to 15.  After that I didn't seen to have the time, and sometimes, the money.  In my early 50s, with kids college paid for and them out on their own, any my own business successful, I decided golf would be a good old-age sport.  I joined a golf club 19 years ago, played weekends when a could, and now in retirement, in my early 70s, must play about three days a week, most of the year.  Sure, there will be exceptions, but why wouldn't lots of millennial folks work it out the same way?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 03:05:14 PM by Carl Johnson »

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #179 on: August 01, 2014, 03:17:38 PM »
Agreed 100%.  I started a similar post a week or so ago, suggesting it would be nice to know numbers of this sort, and more, but then decided, "Who cares?" and dropped it.  I think my experience could play out for many people.  I played a little with my dad and my friends at our family country club from ages 12 to 15.  After that I didn't seen to have the time, and sometimes, the money.  In my early 50s, with kids college paid for and them out on their own, any my own business successful, I decided golf would be a good old-age sport.  I joined a golf club 19 years ago, played weekends when a could, and now in retirement, in my early 70s, must play about three days a week, most of the year.  Sure, there will be exceptions, but why wouldn't lots of millennial folks work it out the same way?

Exactly right, Carl.

I grew up playing golf as a kid with my two grandfathers, both of whom only took up the game when they retired. From the age of around 16 however - when I discovered beer and pussy - I played probably 8 times in 34 years.

On my 50th birthday I bought myself a set of golf clubs and hit the range. Club membership soon followed. Now, four years later, I'm playing 2/3 times a week and am a hopeless addict. My wife has been forced to take up the game if she is ever to see me.

This all seems perfectly normal to me.

Golf is a game for middle aged (and older) men.  Sod the millennials. They'll grow old soon enough.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #180 on: August 01, 2014, 05:03:39 PM »
Duncan,

Certainly you're on to something and I was already convinced this was all a storm in a teacup.

Certainly at 37 I fit the category you refer to at your club. I played avidly as a junior, put my clubs down when I moved away to university at 18 and didn't really pick them up again until 4 years ago. Now I've rejoined the club I grew up at and they can finally make some money out of me. Those junior years, while not profitable for the club at the time, cemented the place as 'home.'

And again, why the obsession with millennials when our little straw poll suggests golf is a game frequently abandoned by those in their late teens and only rediscovered later in life? Getting into golf as a junior gave me an addiction for life which I was able to put down for 15 years or so. But there's no cure for addiction and once I had another hit or two in my early thirties my drug of choice was back in full effect. 

Focusing on the kids is key for long term growth but you have to accept a lose at first. Any self respecting drug dealer will tell you that the young and vulnerable get their first hit for free.  ;D
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #181 on: August 01, 2014, 10:53:40 PM »
The golf course used to be a place where a parent could drop a kid for 4 hours for some peace and quiet away from them.  Now, they hover over the kids and it's the kids that want to get away for 4 hours.   Simple as that.  It's all the parents' fault.  100%.
Drop your kid off at the range and tell 'em you'll see them in 4 hours.  AND DO IT! 

They'll fall in love with the game in droves. 

A+

Children 4-16 have been robbed of their "leisure" - constant and unceasing schedules of activity have hurried children into forgoing one of their assets--that the world moves slowly for them.. And in that newer pace, there is scarcely any time to acquire nuance and process new discoveries...and it also means that there is less time to "compare notes" with peers in private, away from the larger groups and the eyes of adults.

Golf courses and driving ranges...scruffy, knockabout, anachronistic, 9- hole demi-executive courses around here used to be a veritable haven for gangs of 12-16 year old boys...on weekends, sometimes their fathers were playing two hours ahead of them drinking beer. but that's just about gone now.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #182 on: August 02, 2014, 04:59:00 AM »
Note to 2035 self-  when you see all the threads about us elderly club members whining about how all these new millennial members don't appreciate the history and ettiquette of the game it's not déjà vu; or is it...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #183 on: August 02, 2014, 08:13:44 AM »
David Schmidt is onto something....

I was watching the great hour-long show about Andre Reed's road to the NFL Hall of Fame.  He told a story about how his mother would kick the kids out of the house in the morning and yell for them when it was dinner time.

I'm a couple of years older than Reed (honestly), and that's EXACTLY what my neighborhood was like in the 70's.  We were NEVER inside when we could be outside.  Whether it was riding my bike to play at the muni, spending time in the town swimming pool, or playing endless games of football or road hockey, we were ALWAYS outside.

I don't see many kids outdoors these days, let alone on a golf course (unless they're playing soccer with helicopter parents hovering nearby).

Actually, helicopter parents may be one of the biggest reasons for the golf/Millenial issue.  These nut jobs are even trying to integrate themselves into their kid's careers! http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/02/living/cnn-parents-helicopter-parenting-job-search 
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 08:22:45 AM by Dan Herrmann »

BCowan

Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #184 on: August 02, 2014, 11:06:03 AM »
David Schmidt is onto something....

I was watching the great hour-long show about Andre Reed's road to the NFL Hall of Fame.  He told a story about how his mother would kick the kids out of the house in the morning and yell for them when it was dinner time.

I'm a couple of years older than Reed (honestly), and that's EXACTLY what my neighborhood was like in the 70's.  We were NEVER inside when we could be outside.  Whether it was riding my bike to play at the muni, spending time in the town swimming pool, or playing endless games of football or road hockey, we were ALWAYS outside.

I don't see many kids outdoors these days, let alone on a golf course (unless they're playing soccer with helicopter parents hovering nearby).

Actually, helicopter parents may be one of the biggest reasons for the golf/Millenial issue.  These nut jobs are even trying to integrate themselves into their kid's careers! http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/02/living/cnn-parents-helicopter-parenting-job-search 

+1 excellent.  Carlin had great bits on this     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6wOt2iXdc4

Mike Sweeney

Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #185 on: August 02, 2014, 06:06:58 PM »
Yea I thought so.  If you lived it 24 hours a day for 20 years, two or three times over, then relate your expertise, otherwise don't think reading articles, and watching CNN  qualifies you as an expert.

Yes, the standard "it was better back when I was a kid" answer/argument is silly.

Am I a helicopter parent? Of course I am, I have an Autistic son so I have to be one. Back in my parents generation, kids like my son were institutionalized, other kids were sexually abused by parish priest (and others) and parents were either looking the other way or did not want to confront authoritative, tradition bound institutions.

Think I am exaggerating the other way to make a point? Well the Headmaster of my older son's school was arrested now over 10 years ago for sending underage girls inappropriate messages (none of the girls were from my son's school) - http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/28/nyregion/headmaster-accused-of-seeking-minors-on-the-internet.html

The "helicopter parents" on the Board had him out of there in 24 hours.

It ended up being the best thing for the school, which will open up a new building in Manhattan next year. The recent graduation was almost entirely run by the graduating class and in the boring tradition of graduations, it was a fantastic ceremony.

Not saying there are not parents out there that need to let go, but throwing an entire generation under the bus and blaming their kids for golf's current and future woes is NOT the biggest problem in golf.

Dan,

Andre Reed seems like a great guy, but dig a little deeper. There is probably a reason that he started his foundation. Maybe everything was not so perfect for him:

Mission Statement of The Andre Reed Foundation

Andre Reed FounationThe Andre Reed Foundation was established in 2010 by retired NFL great Andre Reed to help underprivileged children reach their full potential and become responsible contributors to their communities.

https://www.andrereedfoundation.org/about.html
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 06:11:46 PM by Mike Sweeney »

B.Ross

  • Karma: +0/-0
How Golf Lost the Millennials - an opinion actually from a millenial!
« Reply #186 on: August 06, 2014, 10:59:42 AM »
a few basic facts:
- i have not read all 8 pages of comments, and only skimmed the forbes article, but i am headstrong in my belief as to why golf is declining.

in my opinion it's that american leisure golf is a failure. the brits/scots can walk 18 holes in 3 hours, yet we have players at public courses using blades, playing the tips and taking practice swings yet they can barely break 90, thus generating rounds that last 4 hours and 45 minutes at best. i'm 28 years old, i picked up a club for the first time before i was 5 thanks to my dad. in the past 10 years, ive been lucky enough to play at a private club annually except for 1 year, when i was living in california and not new york. in that year, in greater LA, i experienced first hand this phenomenon that is ruining the game. people play too damn slowly and are inconisderate. they think their leisurely 18 hole round is like sunday at augusta. golf's lost many of us millelnials b/c it takes too damn long. it's not a cost thing, you can find great clubs for real cheap thanks to the secondary market and also you can play public course on discount too. but it's an ego thing, it's guys who can't break 90 buying big bertha alpha's brand new, and stalking putts etc. try explaining to a serious girlfriend / fiance / wife that youre leaving at 10 am for an 1130 tee time, then you play til unfortunately 430, and then youre home at 630. thats how this game has lost many millenials (though not me). a friend and i 2 weeks ago at our private club zipped around 18 holes in a cart in 2 hours. the fact that whether walking or riding, 18 holes at municipals in crowded metropolitan hours rarely, if ever, have rounds played in under 4 hours is an atrocity. until the pga of america and usga take a page from the other side of the pond and promote fast play, the game will continue to die.

what can be done in my opinion:
-pace of play deposit's of 25% of round cost at public courses.
- ambassadors of the game promoting fast play,
- forget tee it forward inititiave. make people show handicap cards to starters in order to play tees from certain lengths. 5.0's and better only at 7k, 10.0s and better only at 6500 and so forth. don't have a handicap? tough luck youre playing the whites, or go spend the $30 bucks it takes to get one. disappointed you can't play the tees you paid for b/c youre index isn't low enough? tough luck, get better.
- work with people to learn their distances, and to also understand nobody ever died when a ball rolled up onto a green. 15 handicaps shouldn't be waiting from 200 yards out to hit the green, as an example. you roll a ball up on the group in front of you? go up and apologize and tell them you hit a career shot. as i said, nobody ever died from a ball rolling onto a green, or even much less a 1 bouncer ( though that's significantly worse).
- stress how abominable american pace of play is compared to our counterparts in the british isles, and stress how tiring and useless practice swings are.


in short, i think so so much can be done to increase the pace of play, even if it means being a bit snippy/short to a stranger you get paired up with, or 1 of your friends. i passionatley feel that its an epidemic that is slowly killing golf. tournaments are one thing, but leisure rounds at municipalities need to be conducted in 4 hours at worst, else the game will continue to lose players and loyalists alike.

rant over.

Brent Hutto

Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #187 on: August 06, 2014, 11:12:11 AM »
I do not think the ills of golf will be solved by all of us being "snippy or short" with every person we meet on the course who are failing to meet out own standards of pace. I see no future in that approach whatsoever.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #188 on: August 06, 2014, 11:33:45 AM »
I do not think the ills of golf will be solved by all of us being "snippy or short" with every person we meet on the course who are failing to meet out own standards of pace. I see no future in that approach whatsoever.

It's not how, it's how long.  Nobody plays golf anymore because the tee sheets are too full.

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #189 on: August 06, 2014, 11:36:25 AM »
JK is spot on!

So golf is too slow at public courses because of heavy play, so we need to get more people into the game.

Got it!

Ajay Yadav

Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #190 on: August 09, 2014, 09:38:29 PM »
I am a Gen Xer, my wife and I played golf avidly after picking it up in the early 30s.  10 years later, we play maybe a few rounds a year.  The biggest reason is time. Golf takes 5+ hours door to door (if we are lucky) and there are only so many weekends in a year.  I rather play with my kids tennis, soccer, basketball etc. and it wont change until my two boys both play golf well.    However, if I could play 9 holes, I probably would play a lot more golf. 2.5-3 hours is manageable, 5+ hours is just too big part of the day. Even when both kids start playing golf,  I bet we would play more if we could play nine holes anytime of the day.

We took up skiing when my eldest was 4 years old. We all ski together now.  The Ski industry has got it right that the way to keep parents  at the hill is to make it fun for the kids and also train them at the ski school.  It brings the whole family to the hill, but also ensure their future when the kids grow up. Whether its the private club or the public course or  the vast majority of golfers, they are not as friendly to young kids on a course.  Always wondered what a golf industry could do, if they allow nine holes throughput the day and offered  two hour lessons for the kids (the way the ski school operates) while the parents played. 


Eric Strulowitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials - an opinion actually from a millenial!
« Reply #191 on: August 10, 2014, 09:26:17 AM »
a few basic facts:
- i have not read all 8 pages of comments, and only skimmed the forbes article, but i am headstrong in my belief as to why golf is declining.

in my opinion it's that american leisure golf is a failure. the brits/scots can walk 18 holes in 3 hours, yet we have players at public courses using blades, playing the tips and taking practice swings yet they can barely break 90, thus generating rounds that last 4 hours and 45 minutes at best. i'm 28 years old, i picked up a club for the first time before i was 5 thanks to my dad. in the past 10 years, ive been lucky enough to play at a private club annually except for 1 year, when i was living in california and not new york. in that year, in greater LA, i experienced first hand this phenomenon that is ruining the game. people play too damn slowly and are inconisderate. they think their leisurely 18 hole round is like sunday at augusta. golf's lost many of us millelnials b/c it takes too damn long. it's not a cost thing, you can find great clubs for real cheap thanks to the secondary market and also you can play public course on discount too. but it's an ego thing, it's guys who can't break 90 buying big bertha alpha's brand new, and stalking putts etc. try explaining to a serious girlfriend / fiance / wife that youre leaving at 10 am for an 1130 tee time, then you play til unfortunately 430, and then youre home at 630. thats how this game has lost many millenials (though not me). a friend and i 2 weeks ago at our private club zipped around 18 holes in a cart in 2 hours. the fact that whether walking or riding, 18 holes at municipals in crowded metropolitan hours rarely, if ever, have rounds played in under 4 hours is an atrocity. until the pga of america and usga take a page from the other side of the pond and promote fast play, the game will continue to die.

what can be done in my opinion:
-pace of play deposit's of 25% of round cost at public courses.
- ambassadors of the game promoting fast play,
- forget tee it forward inititiave. make people show handicap cards to starters in order to play tees from certain lengths. 5.0's and better only at 7k, 10.0s and better only at 6500 and so forth. don't have a handicap? tough luck youre playing the whites, or go spend the $30 bucks it takes to get one. disappointed you can't play the tees you paid for b/c youre index isn't low enough? tough luck, get better.
- work with people to learn their distances, and to also understand nobody ever died when a ball rolled up onto a green. 15 handicaps shouldn't be waiting from 200 yards out to hit the green, as an example. you roll a ball up on the group in front of you? go up and apologize and tell them you hit a career shot. as i said, nobody ever died from a ball rolling onto a green, or even much less a 1 bouncer ( though that's significantly worse).
- stress how abominable american pace of play is compared to our counterparts in the british isles, and stress how tiring and useless practice swings are.


in short, i think so so much can be done to increase the pace of play, even if it means being a bit snippy/short to a stranger you get paired up with, or 1 of your friends. i passionatley feel that its an epidemic that is slowly killing golf. tournaments are one thing, but leisure rounds at municipalities need to be conducted in 4 hours at worst, else the game will continue to lose players and loyalists alike.

rant over.
This is a really great post and I can relate to everything you say.

I just got back from a week of golf at Hilton Head with my wife.  .  The place we stayed was beautiful, the courses were beautiful, the food was great, but  have little interest in ever going back, at least to play golf.   Most of the rounds we played was not golf, it was some aberration.  Sit and wait, sit and wait.

We had several rounds that were well over 5 hours and many that were over 4 1/2.   One morning we were with a couple that had not played in seven years, the timeshare they stayed comped them the round so they said why not.   Another round, I was paired with a decent player, but his brother in law never played.  Another round, a father was teaching his son while we were playing.  The kid had no idea of basic etiquette or rules, he had no idea what clubs to use, and he dug up the fairways.   For two rounds, our partners disappeared at the turn, taking forever to get nourishments.  We also had a round where we were paired up with a couple and the lady would take 3 practice swings, go away from the ball, and then do 3 more, and then freeze over the ball and finally hit, the cycle took two minutes each time.   This simply is not fun, it is nerve wracking.  I consider myself very patient and understanding, but after a while it just becomes too much.  Every day it was extremely hot and humid, when I am moving it is barley noticeable, but when you are sitting and sitting and waiting and waiting, , it gets very uncomfortable.

The two rounds I played at some exclusive private clubs I booked through my club, the rounds were all under 4 hours, and one was just under 3.  The round at Harbor Town was superb, they had us spaced well from the other groups, and even though the couple that we were paired with was clearly getting hot and tired by mid round, and started hitting really poorly, the caddies kept us moving.

I am everything but a stuffy individual, they do not come more down to earth, but I am pretty much done with public and resort golf.   If I do go to a resort, it will be a place where there are mostly serious golfers, like Pinehurst, Sea Island, or Kiawah.   And yes, there might be some rude and slow playesr there too, at least there will be less of a chance.  I am a club golfer, not to say that there are not rude and slow golfers at private clubs, but there is definitely more courtesy and etiquette.    The little time I get off, I can't afford to spend it with such stupidity.  Waiting and waiting to hit each shot, and having to deal with incredibly slow play and rude behaviors, is not worth it and there are other things I can be doing in my leisure time.  So I am just one person, but with a few exceptions, I am done with public and resort golf.  Multiply that by thousands who feel the same way. 

Golf won't police itself.  It takes just one or two people to back up an entire course and ruin the experience for countless dozens.  Rangers are incredibly timid, everyone is afraid of upsetting the consumer, because rounds are indeed down and God forbid you upset someone, you lose another potential customer.  I can see where people who have families and work a lot of hours have walked away.  I have many friends and acquaintances that have walked away.  Because time is a precious asset.  And many of us already have stress on our jobs and families, why engage in an activity that should NOT be stressful, but ends up being incredibly stressful because of the inconsideration of others.  And then on top of that, paying for all this.  There are so many other things you can be do.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #192 on: August 10, 2014, 10:14:49 AM »
Eric,

Any excellent post. There are a few practical realities which come with splitting up a group of various handicaps but to hear a younger American golfer essential hit the nail on the head is music to my ears.

Just be prepared for a life time of frustration with people  continually telling you they've paid their money and they'll do as they please, ignoring the traffic jam behind them. A disproportionate percentage of golfers are used to getting their own way in life.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Mike Sweeney

Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials - an opinion actually from a millenial!
« Reply #193 on: August 10, 2014, 10:44:21 AM »

Golf won't police itself.  


Got lost on a different thread, here is a suggestion:

How many people on a cool August day on a busy Friday played the USGA Rules of Golf yesterday at Yale Golf Course? My guess is 10-20%. Let's stop having one set of rules that don't get followed in recreational golf.

The USGA can't get pace of play under control with the existing set of rules. The rules need to be bi-furcated into at least 3 sets of rules:

    * traditional/tournament
    * club golf using the David Elvins replacement for stroke and distance, lost ball
    * 3 hour golf rules


There can be a weighting for each of the 3 sets of rules for the overall handicap, and tee times can be slotted/arranged to maximize on course logistics and pace of play.

You really want 3 hour golf? Give them the first 2 hours of the day, charge them more, and give them a set of rules where they can still post a handicap for when they want to play club golf and tournament golf.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2014, 10:47:50 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials - an opinion actually from a millenial!
« Reply #194 on: August 10, 2014, 10:50:48 AM »
I just got back from a week of golf at Hilton Head with my wife.  .  The place we stayed was beautiful, the courses were beautiful, the food was great, but  have little interest in ever going back, at least to play golf.   Most of the rounds we played was not golf, it was some aberration.  Sit and wait, sit and wait.

We had several rounds that were well over 5 hours and many that were over 4 1/2.   One morning we were with a couple that had not played in seven years, the timeshare they stayed comped them the round so they said why not.   Another round, I was paired with a decent player, but his brother in law never played.  Another round, a father was teaching his son while we were playing.  The kid had no idea of basic etiquette or rules, he had no idea what clubs to use, and he dug up the fairways.   For two rounds, our partners disappeared at the turn, taking forever to get nourishments.  We also had a round where we were paired up with a couple and the lady would take 3 practice swings, go away from the ball, and then do 3 more, and then freeze over the ball and finally hit, the cycle took two minutes each time.   This simply is not fun, it is nerve wracking.  I consider myself very patient and understanding, but after a while it just becomes too much.  Every day it was extremely hot and humid, when I am moving it is barley noticeable, but when you are sitting and sitting and waiting and waiting, , it gets very uncomfortable.

Eric:

You seem to be saying that golf would be tolerable if everyone who wasn't as good as you would just quit the game.  No wonder beginners feel intimidated!

Your post struck a nerve because my first exposure to golf [other than trips to the driving range] was playing with my family on a vacation to Hilton Head.  I'd guess we probably held up somebody, too, but in 1970 they didn't have an internet discussion board to complain about it, the poor people.

Mike Sweeney

Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials - an opinion actually from a millenial!
« Reply #195 on: August 10, 2014, 11:22:02 AM »

Your post struck a nerve because my first exposure to golf [other than trips to the driving range] was playing with my family on a vacation to Hilton Head.  I'd guess we probably held up somebody, too, but in 1970 they didn't have an internet discussion board to complain about it, the poor people.

Tom,

This post reminds me of the interview that Jim Nantz did yesterday with the PGA President and they talked about PGA's http://www.pga.com/play-golf-america and it all sounds great. Next put in "06902" into the website (which did not exist 40 years ago), and a hodge podge of ranges and public courses 20-30 miles away come up in a densely populated area. This PGA program really adds nothing to the conversation.

Now as a guy who has made millions of dollars designing courses, maybe you could be constructive when people are discussing how to better utilize the courses that you have built? Eric's post made me look for the Streamsong walking post/policy that has been put in place for next season. Saying 40 years ago that there was no discussion group to complain about the Doak family re-establishes you as the King of Double Standards when NOBODY on the discussion group has made more money off of golf than you!
« Last Edit: August 10, 2014, 11:23:39 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials - an opinion actually from a millenial!
« Reply #196 on: August 10, 2014, 11:56:26 AM »

Your post struck a nerve because my first exposure to golf [other than trips to the driving range] was playing with my family on a vacation to Hilton Head.  I'd guess we probably held up somebody, too, but in 1970 they didn't have an internet discussion board to complain about it, the poor people.

Now as a guy who has made millions of dollars designing courses, maybe you could be constructive when people are discussing how to better utilize the courses that you have built? Eric's post made me look for the Streamsong walking post/policy that has been put in place for next season. Saying 40 years ago that there was no discussion group to complain about the Doak family re-establishes you as the King of Double Standards when NOBODY on the discussion group has made more money off of golf than you!

Mike:

I'm not one of those industry types who want to grow the game so I can keep getting paid.  You know better.  But I do think when guys start complaining about beginners being in the way, they should at least try to remember when they were beginners -- and give others a chance to fall in love with the game, instead of running them out of it.  I think we've been constructive in building facilities like the Kids' course at Common Ground and the Midnight Golf facility at Marygrove --  so maybe I've also done more about the problem in my spare time than most of the people on the discussion group.

Slow play is indeed a problem in America and in other places as well.  As an architect there is only so much I can do about it; I'm not on the front lines.  But the portion of Eric's post that bothered me highlighted a different problem for golf, the fact that many good golfers are intolerant of beginners and kids and casual players, even at a resort that caters to the latter group. 

Golf clubs and resorts should do a better job of accommodating casual players and beginners, and encourage them to play far enough forward that they can get around the course.  Perhaps they should give them certain times of the day when they can play and not feel they are in the way, but when?  Even late in the afternoon, they will hold up Eric when he wants to get out for a quick nine or 18 before dark.


Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #197 on: August 10, 2014, 11:57:22 AM »
I don't want to speak for Eric, but I think he'd be quick to tell you that he's no elite player. If I recall correctly, he was a mid teens handicap when we played together at Black Creek earlier this year. He's also an excellent playing partner and would really be an ideal person to pair with a beginner, as he has a relaxed attitude, plays quickly, and his etiquette is excellent. We walked a pretty big course that day and still finished in under four hours, and I don't know that anyone in our group legitimately broke 90 (there was a lot of winter rust on display). If we did it on that day and on that course, there's no reason for a resort round to take any longer.

On the other hand, I hear that his wife is an excellent player and it's good to hear that she's back out and playing again.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Joe Sponcia

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #198 on: August 10, 2014, 12:04:27 PM »
It seems like the Dick's article kicked out this theme:

A Game of Golf? Not for Many Millennials
Golf's Retail and Sporting Ends Scramble to Find New Strategy.


http://online.wsj.com/articles/a-game-of-golf-not-for-many-millennials-1406159228



That picture/graph is pretty funny.  Yoga?  Jogging?  What this points to is what all of us over 40 already know...kids don't want or feel the need to compete.  They are now choosing things that don't involve failing.  When I was a kid, we pitched, now coaches do it.  Tee ball?  That was for 5 year olds.  Soccer?  That was for kids that didn't have the coordination to play the main-line sports.  And yes, in the late 70's-early 80's golf was a 'sissy' sport.  I didn't learn until my college baseball career ceased at 19 years old.  

Now golf is 'cool', but kids don't play?  The last few issues of golf digest trying to pander with stories of weed and lifestyle articles is even more of a stretch.

Kids today have 2k MacBooks, iPhones with $120 bills, triple the school debt.  They wouldn't be caught dead in a used car like I drove around in for 10 years.  They also won't live in a house the size my grandparents lived in.  They buy $3 cups of coffee, $5 snob beer.  They eat out every meal.

My first set of clubs came from Wal-mart.  They were Dunlops.  If ebay existed back then, I could have bought the equivalent of a set of Callaway x-16's or Taylor Made r7's for about the same money.  Golfnow was called walking.  Golf courses rarely discounted their rounds.  

The kids that focus on one sport at my club (golf) are gentlemen and a breath of fresh air.  They play EVERY DAY in the summer.  Several work as cart boys or on the Green crew.  They call me Mr. and they love the game.  This is the core group coming up that closely resembles what many have already spoke of (positively)...not these flat-billed, 25-35's that don't attempt to understand the rules, dress like clowns, eat wraps for lunch and play no competitive events.  

We don't need to conform to them, but clubs do and have already...and most have huge churn.  
Joe


"If the hole is well designed, a fairway can't be too wide".

- Mike Nuzzo

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How Golf Lost the Millennials
« Reply #199 on: August 10, 2014, 12:13:11 PM »
The rake and runners are driving me from the game. Yesterday my foresome teed off at 8:10 and were followed by a twosome whose tee time was 8:20. At 8:19 we had to step back from our putts to let them play through on the first green. They simply play for exercise.

The time before that I played a twosome decided to start on 10 and began their day with hands on hips giving us the evil eye. I waved them on and it took each of them three strokes to reach our drives. By the time we could hit our approach there were two more groups on the tee.

I understand that playing on one of the most difficult courses in the world while putting everything out is no longer allowed in this culture of run and rake. The only defense I have left is the Joshua theorem. I'm done until the fair weather non golfers put their clubs up for winter.

Exactly what golf needs, more people like me quitting who enjoy spending seven to eight hours a day at the club.

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