Will we ever see another raw Open?

[David_Tepper]

"The difference you describe could be down to soil types or construction methods as well."

Steve Okula -

Don't confuse all the "experts" here with the facts!

DT

[Thomas Dai]

You saw a brown Open at Muirfield last year, you saw a green Open this year, only God will decide what you get next year.

...or the weather.  Setting weather aside, Chappers, do you think there are many links which seem to get too much man watering?  At Burnham we have two courses.  The one closest to the marsh has drier, firmer more linksy greens than the other course.  I have to believe that is down to a difference in watering schedules rather than a freaky weather pattern hitting one course much more than the other. 
Ciao

The difference you describe could be down to soil types or construction methods as well.

Would there be a water table effect as well? Plus, fresh water vrs salt water and salt water wind spray onto grass? Just asking.
Atb

[Steve Okula]

You saw a brown Open at Muirfield last year, you saw a green Open this year, only God will decide what you get next year.

...or the weather.  Setting weather aside, Chappers, do you think there are many links which seem to get too much man watering?  At Burnham we have two courses.  The one closest to the marsh has drier, firmer more linksy greens than the other course.  I have to believe that is down to a difference in watering schedules rather than a freaky weather pattern hitting one course much more than the other. 
Ciao

The difference you describe could be down to soil types or construction methods as well.

Would there be a water table effect as well? Plus, fresh water vrs salt water and salt water wind spray onto grass? Just asking.
Atb

Yes.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Ok amen to all thats been said but...



The Old course has been there years and is built over high sand dunes.  It has been extensively and intensely worked on over many years

The new course is closer to the tidal estuary and is bulit on new land that has silted up, I think, since WW2.  So it's low lying and was not an expensive construction.


Q
Why would it have firmer greens?     

A
May have something to do with - I don't believe it has an irrigation sytem?

[Ryan Coles]

The Channel Course has irrigation to greens fairways and tees, same as the Championship Course.

I'm not doubting Sean, he plays there more than me but is he making a direct comparison? I'm sure the greenkeeper will have a Clegg hammer.

Another reason could be the amount of events they've hosted in recent years has hampered aeration and more disruptive maintenance, whereas on the Channel they can do pretty much what they like, where they like.

I do agree with Sean re width at Burnham. The rough from the very start can make it a miserable experience. I think Burnham is fantastic in winter without it.

[Steve Okula]

Ok amen to all thats been said but...



The Old course has been there years and is built over high sand dunes.  It has been extensively and intensely worked on over many years

The new course is closer to the tidal estuary and is bulit on new land that has silted up, I think, since WW2.  So it's low lying and was not an expensive construction.


Q
Why would it have firmer greens?     

A
May have something to do with - I don't believe it has an irrigation sytem?

I haven't been to the Old Course for ten years, and I don't know anything about the Channel Course, but I do know some Scottish links supervisors and they are to a man the most scrupulous of managers. They consider the preservation of true links turf and conditions to be of paramount importance, and they would waste nary a drop of water to soften the greens. In fact, they pride themselves on how little water and fertilizer they can manage.

There are many different constructions, soils, and maintenance practices that could account for the firmer conditions of one course over another. Drainage is one. Even sand isn't always the same, particles have different shapes and sizes that would dictate the firmness of the playing surface. Besides irrigation, the amount of fertilizer, aeration, verticutting, rolling, and topdressing would impact how the surface plays.

[Adam Lawrence]

Ok amen to all thats been said but...



The Old course has been there years and is built over high sand dunes.  It has been extensively and intensely worked on over many years

The new course is closer to the tidal estuary and is bulit on new land that has silted up, I think, since WW2.  So it's low lying and was not an expensive construction.


Q
Why would it have firmer greens?     

A
May have something to do with - I don't believe it has an irrigation sytem?

I haven't been to the Old Course for ten years, and I don't know anything about the Channel Course, but I do know some Scottish links supervisors and they are to a man the most scrupulous of managers. They consider the preservation of true links turf and conditions to be of paramount importance, and they would waste nary a drop of water to soften the greens. In fact, they pride themselves on how little water and fertilizer they can manage.

There are many different constructions, soils, and maintenance practices that could account for the firmer conditions of one course over another. Drainage is one. Even sand isn't always the same, particles have different shapes and sizes that would dictate the firmness of the playing surface. Besides irrigation, the amount of fertilizer, aeration, verticutting, rolling, and topdressing would impact how the surface plays.

Steve, they're talking about the old course at Burnham and Berrow, not St Andrews.

[Thomas Dai]

I understood the Channel course came into being in the 1970's and some of the spoil from the construction of the M5 motorway was used in the construction of the first few holes, the flatter holes near the rushes. The latter holes are in the bigger dunes.

Top course The Channel, even though it's only 9-holes. Definitely in my top-10 links courses. If you go to Burnham & Berrow and don't play it you are missing a terrific opportunity IMO.

Atb

[Sean_A]

Steve

I am no soil expert, but I think the soil on both courses is essentially the same.  Generally sandy base, with some holes more sandy than others. If it rains, some holes are more effected than others.  Basically, the lower lying holes are wetter than the holes in the dunes.  The Champ course can hold a ton more water because its on higher ground.  A few days of good rain will see the Channel (hard on the marsh) have loads of puddles. While the Champ course never dries out as much as many links, when the serious rain comes, it holds up at least as well id not better than any other links in the south.  There can be an incredible amount of standing water, but the course remains very playable.  A few winters ago was a serious shock to the system with standing water on practically every hole - never seen anything close to this at Burnham previously.  

In past experience, the Channel greens were far firmer and more linksy than the Champ greens.  I know the club is still progressing toward eliminating the poor watering practices of the 80s and 90s and encouraging the fescues and bents to thrive as they should.  Maybe even with the water way down it may takes years and good weather to really get the turf back in shape - I don't know.  That may explain a slow (very slow!) weening off water.  Both courses now have new watering systems (the Channel didn't have watering previously) in place, but I haven't played the Channel since this happened.  I admit that part of the reason is my fear that the greens will now be softer.  That is a genuine fear because previously there were some of the best links greens in GB&I.  

All this said, in my experience, the driest and fastest courses are almost 100%, the courses which don't have a watering system.  I have asked and asked many times. How much water a course needs is a matter of opinion.  I am necessarily going to have a different opinion to the guy who relies on making a living as the greenkeeper.  With that in mind, how much water do you think supers buffer in to make sure they avoid disaster? How much more water above the super's opinion of what the course needs is used "just in case".  

Don't get me wrong, the quality of the greens at Burnham have improved dramatically form the days when Burnham had the rep of the fastest and best greens in England.  The thing is, progress seems to have stalled in recent years.  It could be down to the the last few awful winters though.

Ciao

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I loved every min of the telecast

Especially the BBC coverage and the interaction between Allis and Mark James, brilliant and amusing.

[Mark Chaplin]

On the Thursday and Friday BBC had 11 hours of non-stop coverage with no breaks or adverts.

[George Pazin]

Fellow Americans, repeat after me:  It's not our fault.

Money, not nationality is the root of all evil.

Boges

Money is a medium of exchange. - Frisco D'Anconia

-----

Didn't seem like an Open to me. Doesn't mean it was their fault, but I greatly preferred the oft-criticised Open at Sandwich in '03.

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,

as someone who owns a course and earns his income from said course I am fully in the camp of no need for an irrigation system in the UK for a golf course. It is handy on occasions and there will be times in prolonged dry, hot spells when greens can be in better condition due to an irrigation system but IMO this is more than counter balanced by general over use creating poor shoulder season conditions. It is interesting that until recently the Channel managed to survive without irrigation proving even in the south of the UK it is possible.

Jon

[Ryan Coles]

Sean,

as someone who owns a course and earns his income from said course I am fully in the camp of no need for an irrigation system in the UK for a golf course. It is handy on occasions and there will be times in prolonged dry, hot spells when greens can be in better condition due to an irrigation system but IMO this is more than counter balanced by general over use creating poor shoulder season conditions. It is interesting that until recently the Channel managed to survive without irrigation proving even in the south of the UK it is possible.

Jon

Depends whether your standards are merely ''survival'' I suppose.

What courses in the south of England without irrigation do you have experience of, Jon?

[Jon Wiggett]

Ryan,

it is a shame that you seem intent on such petty answers nor are you able to accept any view as equally valid other than your own. It is the sort of attitude that does not allow a development in open discussion and therefore the possibility of learning something new which becomes self perpetuating. If you had bothered to read Sean's reply  he states that the Channel course  had what for him were some of the best links greens in GB&I. Sean's opinion carries a bit of weight with me even if not with you.

I am not saying that irrigation is wrong nor not desirable but it is possible to produce good greens without it IMO. Of course it is equally possible to have poor greens without irrigation but having it or not is not a guarantee of success as many of the abysmal irrigated greens I have experienced pay witness to. Of course you are entitled to your opinion. Just because you experience has not allowed you to witness such does not mean it is impossible for others to have.

Jon

[Ryan Coles]

Ryan,

it is a shame that you seem intent on such petty answers nor are you able to accept any view as equally valid other than your own. It is the sort of attitude that does not allow a development in open discussion and therefore the possibility of learning something new which becomes self perpetuating. If you had bothered to read Sean's reply  he states that the Channel course  had what for him were some of the best links greens in GB&I. Sean's opinion carries a bit of weight with me even if not with you.

I am not saying that irrigation is wrong nor not desirable but it is possible to produce good greens without it IMO. Of course it is equally possible to have poor greens without irrigation but having it or not is not a guarantee of success as many of the abysmal irrigated greens I have experienced pay witness to. Of course you are entitled to your opinion. Just because you experience has not allowed you to witness such does not mean it is impossible for others to have.

Jon

Jon

I've been playing the channel course for 20 years and the greens have always been watered in that time. I respect Sean's opinion as I do yours. Which is why I asked the question, which you failed to answer and teach me something new. You are 'firmly in the camp that no irrigation is necessary in the uk' and you believe there is proof that this is true even in the south of England. I'd just like some examples or perhaps experiences either personal or second hand, that can perhaps put some flesh on the bones of this theory. The south of england is full of brown courses at the moment and all will be putting a little water on their greens during this spell of hot and humid weather. Why are you right and every greenkeeper down here wrong?

What facts and experiences in the south of england are your opinions based on? You're quite correct, I've no experiences to back up your theory, hence why I'm interested in yours.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ryan,

I have no experience of working on a course in the south of the UK but have worked on several in Europe without irrigation where daytime temperatures regularly reached 35C so know at least something about the subject. Clearly the cutting height is going to be higher at around 5-6mm and the greens will be slow growing in a prolonged period of such weather but it is more than possible to produce good putting surfaces without irrigation.

Sean quite clearly states the Channel course has no irrigation system and as he is a member at the club I had no reason to disbelieve him. You say it has had irrigation for at least the last 20 years. I wonder if the course had snap on points by the greens for manual watering? Were this the case it is a type of irrigation though not full blown.

'Why are you right and every greenkeeper down here wrong? you ask. I wonder why are you even asking this question. Have I ever said it is wrong to irrigate? no Have I ever said courses should refrain from having irrigation? no. Have I ever criticised another greenkeeper? Yet you seem take my stand point of it being possible to produce good quality playing surface without irrigation as some sort of affront.

I am basing my opinion on actual experience of maintaining courses without irrigation in a climate which is a little warmer than south UK so see no reason why it is not possible in the slightly cooler UK.

You say you have no experience to back up my assertion and yet you are quite happy to state Depends whether your standards are merely ''survival'' I suppose. How do you reconcile these two differing stand points?

One thing I have learned in life is there are often many different ways to do something right and some of these might even be completely opposed to one another yet still correct. Just because what I believe does not align with what you believe does not make it wrong nor mean that I think your ideas are wrong. There are enough narrow minded, bigoted posters on this site unwilling to accept another's view as valid so try to keep an open mind .

Jon

[Sean_A]

Yes of course the Channel could be watered in places, I think just the greens previously.  Now, the Channel has wall to wall automatic watering.  Previously, anybody who knew both courses these past 8-10 years would always say the dune holes on the Channel had firmer, faster, better conditioned greens than the Champ course.  I don't know what they are like now, haven't played the course since the new irrigation system was installed. Played the Champ yesterday.  It is only starting to brown out.  The greens are just starting to get properly firm.  There is still some very harsh rough with thick meadowy grass at its base around the entire course.  The course looks narrower now than I have ever seen it.  Our medal yesterday took 4:35.  If there were trees about I think I may have fallen asleep - very heavy sigh.  I think some clubs are reaching the point where people will no longer pay good money to be tortured by rough and slow play.  The idea of "championship" may be one of the most fun wrecking concepts ever invented.  Long live the Winter Tour 

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

I can recall as a young lad a golf course which had no irrigation system at all being watered in hot dry spells by a tractor pulling a wheeled water tanker behind it.

The tanker would be positioned near a green or sometimes a tee and would either spray the green/tee directly or a hose would be hooked-up and used. Sometimes it was used to spray the fairways as it was pulled along by the tractor. The tractor was an old 'red Fergie', that gives an idea of how long ago it was.

I think 'the tanker' was actually an agricultural slurry sprayer that was either rented (cleaned out first!) from a local farmer or purchased cheap by the club. The operation looked sort of similar to this but with H2O being sprayed not the substance you see in this photo!



Seemed like a pretty simple 'cheap-n-chearful' method of irrigation.

atb

[Ryan Coles]

Ryan,

I have no experience of working on a course in the south of the UK but have worked on several in Europe without irrigation where daytime temperatures regularly reached 35C so know at least something about the subject. Clearly the cutting height is going to be higher at around 5-6mm and the greens will be slow growing in a prolonged period of such weather but it is more than possible to produce good putting surfaces without irrigation.

Sean quite clearly states the Channel course has no irrigation system and as he is a member at the club I had no reason to disbelieve him. You say it has had irrigation for at least the last 20 years. I wonder if the course had snap on points by the greens for manual watering? Were this the case it is a type of irrigation though not full blown.

'Why are you right and every greenkeeper down here wrong? you ask. I wonder why are you even asking this question. Have I ever said it is wrong to irrigate? no Have I ever said courses should refrain from having irrigation? no. Have I ever criticised another greenkeeper? Yet you seem take my stand point of it being possible to produce good quality playing surface without irrigation as some sort of affront.

I am basing my opinion on actual experience of maintaining courses without irrigation in a climate which is a little warmer than south UK so see no reason why it is not possible in the slightly cooler UK.

You say you have no experience to back up my assertion and yet you are quite happy to state Depends whether your standards are merely ''survival'' I suppose. How do you reconcile these two differing stand points?

One thing I have learned in life is there are often many different ways to do something right and some of these might even be completely opposed to one another yet still correct. Just because what I believe does not align with what you believe does not make it wrong nor mean that I think your ideas are wrong. There are enough narrow minded, bigoted posters on this site unwilling to accept another's view as valid so try to keep an open mind .

Jon

Jon

To answer your question, I reconcile it by knowing that greens cut at 6mm on an inland course in the main playing season do not provide acceptable playing surfaces for those who pay the bills. Greens at 6mm are at 6mm because any lower and they won't survive. Hence they are maintained to merely survive.

Have greens at 6mm in the south of England on a parkland course and see what happens to your business. You'd be playing the course alone. Standards and expectations rightly or wrongly have risen. Therefore I maintain that the ability to water greens is absolutely essential for any course in the south of England. You will say the golfers need educating. I will say you can bring Michelle Pfeiffer and your classroom will be as empty as the course. The golfers will be down the road where they have irrigation and greens at 3-4mm.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ryan,

ergo your argument then any course stimping at less than 11ft in the south of England will be out of business. That does not sound very plausible to me.

Jon

[Ryan Coles]

Ryan,

ergo your argument then any course stimping at less than 11ft in the south of England will be out of business. That does not sound very plausible to me.

Jon

Jon

No, not at all. I think I've been explicit on what my argument is. Any inland course in the south of england not irrigating greens in hot or prolonged dry weather and cutting at 6mm to compensate for this, will go out of business or at least see a huge proportion of their business go elsewhere.

Most greens in my local market place stimp 9 or 10 at best in the summer. The issue is not speed, it is quality.

Your argument about irrigation being over used is very valid. However it is not a good enough reason "or balanced by better conditions in the the shoulder seasons" not to have irrigation available when needed. Some people eat themselves to obesity, it doesn't mean we'd all be better off without food.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ryan,

if you read my replies you should have gathered that I am not against irrigation. What I said and you disputed was that it was possible to produce acceptable quality greens in the south of the UK without irrigation. The fact that rather than sticking to the core discussion you have started to alter the parameters of said discussion so as to fit your point of view tells me that even you do not believe your original position to be correct.

I do not disagree with what you have said but that was never what I was pointing out.

Jon

[Adrian_Stiff]

Irrigation for greens in the South of the UK is not required for low budget golf. We are operating one currently but we cut at 8mm when it gets very dry and go down to 6mm at other times. Quality is crap to be honest and we have taken the decsion to rebuild the greens and install irrigation or the course would close because of the poor quality versus number of rounds.

Obviously you can't get a quality surface without irrigation. Greens without irrigation like Painswick are pretty horrific when it gets dry, sometimes its not possible to change the holes for 3 weeks, they may cut once a week perhaps even go two weeks without cutting. It is amazing how they recover with a bit of stuff from above.

My equation would be you cant charge £20 for golf without irrigation on greens in the south UK. South Wales more toward the west might be a touch different and the quality drop might not be severe, that would be counterbalanced by the fact that golf is cheaper there so I reckon my £20 bar might still hold up.

[Thomas Dai]

I've been told that both Painswick and Minch' Old use bowsers occasionally in the summer. Are there many other UK courses that still use them?

As an aside, on a course with only greens and tees irrigation, and in very general terms, what proportion (%) of water would contributors suggest should be used on the greens vrs the tees?

atb