Does this make you want to play Hoylake?

[Jud_T]

I woke up early to watch the coverage this morning.  What was I confronted with?  Interesting greens with very narrow fairways flanked by thick fescue.  Thank god there was no wind.  I know this is an Open setup and it's been a wet spring, but personally I now have zero interest in playing this course.  Maybe that's OK, this is a Championship track and I'm just an average hack, yada yada yada.  Now I hear that The Old Course has narrowed things up and has bunkers buried in rough?!!!  WTF is happening?  Even in the home of links golf, they just don't get it?  Have they succumbed to the American Affliction of measuring their manhood by course difficulty?  Talk amongst yourselves...

[Shane Wright]

I will never understand why the setup of a golf course for major championships cannot be mentally separated by intelligent individuals of this board from the setup one would experience paying a daily fee on a golf trip.  Short of a handful of courses in the entire world, there simply is no comparison.

[Brent Hutto]

I predict a long thread will ensue about how all the ills of world are due to the ProV1.

[Jud_T]

Shane,

Are you saying Hoylake has a ton of width for member play?

[Paul Gray]

Jud,

I would wager that the average Brit has no better understanding of proper architecture than the average Yank.

Even at my links the fairways are considerably pinched on a number of holes in a way which would have been unimaginable twenty years ago. What I find particularly interesting is that the best holes on the course remain undamaged while the holes recently identified as weak in a report by MacKenzie and Ebert have been bastardized by narrowing the corridors, suggesting a knee jerk reaction which assumed that a lack of width, rather than making those holes more bland, would make them far more interesting.

I wrote at length to the committee about it and apparently my essay was well received. I now await an action plan......

The point is, everything I had to say clearly came as a complete surprise to the committee. It's a Tom Simpson links and yet no one seemingly knew what that really meant, so your assertion about people not getting it is most definitely accurate.

[Ryan Coles]

Jud,

I would wager that the average Brit has no better understanding of proper architecture than the average Yank.

Even at my links the fairways are considerably pinched on a number of holes in a way which would have been unimaginable twenty years ago. What I find particularly interesting is that the best holes on the course remain undamaged while the holes recently identified as weak in a report by MacKenzie and Ebert have been bastardized by narrowing the corridors, suggesting a knee jerk reaction which assumed that a lack of width, rather than making those holes more bland, would make them far more interesting.

I wrote at length to the committee about it and apparently my essay was well received. I now await an action plan......

The point is, everything I had to say clearly came as a complete surprise to the committee. It's a Tom Simpson links and yet no one seemingly knew what that really meant, so your assertion about people not getting it is most definitely accurate.

Paul

Do you know the head greenkeeper to talk to?

If so, what is his view?

More likely to be him narrowing the fairways rather the committee. Could be that they haven't even realised/thought about it. 

[Ryan Coles]

How many greens have been given the Hawtree treatment? I'm with you Jud and the main illustration is virtually no one hitting driver. Simply not worth the risk. I was deeply saddened by Ally's remarks on the Old course earlier in the week. The visual immediacy of wavey golden fescue taking precedence over the awesome natural terrain. Not right but a function of Open courses these days. That and overshaped green surrounds with deep circular bunkers everywhere

Brian

Most of the links courses I've ever played have deep circular bunkers. Save for the modern/faux links. Is it the shape or the sheer number you object to?

[Ryan Coles]

Shane,

Are you saying Hoylake has a ton of width for member play?

Jud,

I thought the greens were remarkably soft and green. Yes it's been a wet spring but, they appear to have received a lot of water, certainly compared to the fairways.

Also I don't think the rough was as punishing as it appeared and the scoring would seem to back this up. I think it's more the position of the bunkers that made the pros somewhat negative from the tee.

[Paul Gray]

Ryan,

I hear you. I have every intention of speaking to him but didn't want to go behind anyone's back so first port of call was the committee.

The back story is that I only rejoined the club in February having moved away to university twenty years ago and only returned to this area  more recently when myself and my good lady decided to get out of London. I wouldn't exactly say I was doing things gently as I'm pathological predisposed to shooting from the hip but I'm attempting to be softer than might otherwise be the case, reasoning that five months is a little soon to be expecting too much.

[Paul Jones]

I wonder if the club with add width back to the fairways after the Open.  Is this common practice now to narrow for tournaments and keep the width or do most clubs in the UK expand after the Open and wait 10 years to narrow again?

[Pete Lavallee]

My experience is that the mowing lines established for Tournament play are rarely changed when the Big Boys leave town; it is a rather difficult thing to change. Besides, when you play an Open Course you want to play The Open Course, not some widened version.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Anyone who thinks this is a Hoylake problem, a Rota problem, an R&A problem, or a links problem has not been paying attention.

This is a GLOBAL problem. Older courses around the world have been blighted by the loss of width. The problem is pandemic.

I have posted several times on this and am committed to what may be a Sisyphean exercise but so be it: the loss of width on old courses remains the greatest unnoticed crime of our age.

[Mike Sweeney]

I will never understand why the setup of a golf course for major championships cannot be mentally separated by intelligent individuals of this board from the setup one would experience paying a daily fee on a golf trip.  Short of a handful of courses in the entire world, there simply is no comparison.

I did a workout/group class this week with a formerly ranked #1 in the world Middleweight Boxer. He is roughly my age and is simply a significantly superior athlete to me. His speed, stamina and flexibility is simply at a different level even on my best days in the past.

Thus, there are 144 golfers in the world that can destroy Yale from the back tees (my personal reference point) on any given day. I finally figured that out this week

[Paul Gray]

Anyone who thinks this is a Hoylake problem, a Rota problem, an R&A problem, or a links problem has not been paying attention.

This is a GLOBAL problem. Older courses around the world have been blighted by the loss of width. The problem is pandemic.

I have posted several times on this and am committed to what may be a Sisyphean exercise but so be it: the loss of width on old courses remains the greatest unnoticed crime of our age.

+1

[Brian Finn]

Anyone who thinks this is a Hoylake problem, a Rota problem, an R&A problem, or a links problem has not been paying attention.

This is a GLOBAL problem. Older courses around the world have been blighted by the loss of width. The problem is pandemic.

I have posted several times on this and am committed to what may be a Sisyphean exercise but so be it: the loss of width on old courses remains the greatest unnoticed crime of our age.

+2

[Peter Pallotta]

Paul - thanks much for your informed and informative post #5.

It's fascinating to watch from a distance/with a bird's eye view this seeming world-wide consensus amongst the golfing powers that be in regards to what constitutes championship architecture (which said powers seem to equate with quality architecture).

I read a bit about the history of gca, and I can't think of another time in the last 100 years when there was such a unanimous embrace of the conventional wisdom of the day by golf's key decision-makers.  

But then again, careerism and elitism and the corrupting influences of power-seeking and of greed have never been such dominant forces (or should i say, have never been so dominant and yet so cleverly disguised/hidden); and rarely has the common good/the common ground (I'd almost written 'the village green') been held in such low esteem.  

Mark - keep going, my friend. Yours is indeed a Sisyphean; alas, unlike Camus, I'm hard pressed to imagine Sisyphus "happy". Maybe I'm not existentialist enough, and/or Algerian.  

[Bill Gayne]

I would gladly pony up the money to play Hoylake if given the opportunity. I would also choose tees that were playable for me.

[BHoover]

Nothing I've seen has made me choose not to play Hoylake. If anything, the coverage makes me want to play links golf in general.

[Sam Morrow]

Nothing I've seen has made me choose not to play Hoylake. If anything, the coverage makes me want to at links golf in general.

I would agree 100%.

[mike_beene]

I have high def TV and didn't in 2006. Now I really want to play Hoylake.

[Josh Stevens]

Gee you are a tough audience.

The fairways look quite generous in spots.  The rough is variable, thick in some spots, wispy and accessible in others.  The fairways have some nice little contours but don't bounce perpendicular which is nice, and the greens and surrounds look very enjoyable.

I think its splendid

[Terry Lavin]

Nothing makes me want to play Hoylake, but a day or two in Liverpool has a bit of appeal.

[BHoover]

Nothing makes me want to play Hoylake, but a day or two in Liverpool has a bit of appeal.

I stayed in a hostel as a law student in Liverpool. Much rather play Hoylake.

[RichMacafee]

I thought the reward was there for those who chose to hit more drivers, especially in the afternoon when the wind got up a bit.

I saw almost every shot of the Scott, Rose, Dufner group, and Rose definitely played more conservatively off the tee and consequently had much more difficult approaches and shot 72. Scott and Dufner both hit a lot more 3 woods and drivers and shot 68 and 69.

Other accurate drivers of the ball are prominent on the leaderboard: Garcia, Ilonen, Mahan, Bjorn, Furyk etc.

I know Hoylake doesn't get a lot of links love, but I've played it and I think it's a very good golf course. I'd love to go back. They have always had a reputation for green, true green surfaces. They are the purest links greens I've ever putted on (that was in an Amateur Champ though). It would be good to see the fairways a bit drier but it has been a very wet winter

Having said all that - I played 3 weeks of golf in the UK last year and was surprised at how narrow some of the links courses were.

[V. Kmetz]

I'm enjoying this course presentation, as I did the 06 tournament when the course was so burned, I think they banned smoking.

I don't think the absence of driver use is a symbol of limitation, but more one of sound basic architecture translated to world championship conditions...I don't believe that narrowed rough scares the elites nearly as much as it does me, especially so if they would be playing from 100-140 yards out of it, by hitting a driver into it...I think its the price paid for loss of angle to navigate the green side hazards that is one part...and on select holes, OB...if I could hit my 2, 3 or 4 iron nearly 250-60 yards AND more reliably straight than my driver and 3w, I'd be hitting it too...at every course on the planet.

For me, this course presentation (by giving precious little "extra reward" and way more risk to driver and 3w usage) is compelling the elite player to conquer the green target and those interesting approaches from a greater distance and (even for them) longer clubs. in the very  first televised action of the day on #1...by hitting irons Woods and Stenson had 193 and 176 respectively and that greater distance played a part in the cause of each to find the right and left flanking traps respectively...and the bogeys that followed.  Meanwhile, Cabrera DID hit driver, had 122 and found a much easier tap-in par for the hole, and had a simple approach that often precedes a birdie (but he made a mess of it and went long).

I think in general, playing width that is curtailed by trees or artifices is bad plain and simple, playign width as defined by rough is more a matter of when you start the clock...to Allain Robertson and Old Tom, the width of today's Old Course might be more like the Champs Elysee than a hand-wringer.

I confess that I am surprised that championship rota courses do not re-widen after the circus leaves town.  I only have Winged Foot and Shinnecock to go on, but I report that both those places were pretty much re-settled into their everyday fairway width by the next golf season opening or soon thereafter.

Follow-up: What is the state of Merion after the gnashing of teeth of its alterations to host the US Open last year...is it lost forever, is it fine, is it back to this or that...?

cheers

vk