News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Tillinghast treasures seen here and now for the first time
« Reply #75 on: August 01, 2014, 01:27:28 PM »
The Disappearing Score's Hotel Letterhead.

Here is how the Original Version described the May 12, 1901 Note:

"In the journal which detailed this gathering was found another priceless treasure, a thank-you note written the day after the dinner on Score’s Hotel letterhead thanking his “old Friend David Scott-Taylor” for the evening they enjoyed the night before signed by Tilly."

The fact that the note was written on "Score's Hotel letterhead" was critical to the Original Story because it put Tillinghast in St. Andrews the day after the supposed May 11, 1901, Scores Hotel dinner had taken place.  Supposely, Tillinghast wasn't just in St. Andrews, he was still at the same Hotel!

But here is how the New Version described the same note:

"[David Scott-Taylor] received . . . a 'note thanking me for my hospitality in St. Andrews… ' [] This note was written on May 12, 1901, and evidently took 16 days to arrive."

Let's set aside (for now) many of the dubious aspects of this new story,  and focus on just one:  the Score's Hotel letterhead. The description no longer references that the note was "written on Score's Hotel letterhead."   So what happened to the Score's Hotel letterhead?

I asked Phil about this after he had come up with this new story and he was adamant that the note had been written from Philadelphia on Score's Hotel letterhead.  (He even claimed it was a common practice of Tillinghast's to send letters on stationary from hotels long after he has stayed at those hotels. I still await proof on that one.)

As I said elsewhere, Phil requested that Ian Scott-Taylor provide him with a full image of the note on the Score's Hotel letterhead.  

Where is that photograph?  Was it sent as Phil requested?  If not, why not?  I am curious to see a letter dated May 12, 1901 on letterhead from the Scores Hotel.  Especially since, according to Niall and Adam, the Scores hotel didn't even exist until the 1930s.

Or is the story now that the Note never was on "Score's Hotel" letterhead?  If so, then why did Phil tell us otherwise?  And why did he insist to me that it was on Score's letterhead even after changing his story?   Surely the part about the "Score's Hotel letterhead" was not part of the family legend?  Not when the family must have had the note in front of them in order to have  forwarded Phil a copy of part of the note.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 01:37:13 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Tillinghast treasures seen here and now for the first time
« Reply #76 on: August 01, 2014, 02:08:56 PM »
My prediction;

This saga will get messier and messier and messier until finally a devastating and mysterious fire will take place at a solicitors' office in Holyhead, destroying all evidence of the DST journals...

The Tillinghurst sketches will be sold for a tidy sum, but not as much as originally hoped for.

Jeff Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Tillinghast treasures seen here and now for the first time
« Reply #77 on: August 01, 2014, 02:50:58 PM »
My prediction;

The Tillinghurst sketches will be sold for a tidy sum, but not as much as originally hoped for.

Not so tidy after the buyer reads these discussion threads.

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Tillinghast treasures seen here and now for the first time
« Reply #78 on: August 02, 2014, 06:50:13 AM »
Tactics like making harsh accusations and adding the throwaway line like ‘I hope I am wrong and will apologize if I am’ are non-constructive, inflammatory and bush league.  

Ran,

As the miscreant in question I felt compelled to go back and see what it was I had actually written that prompted this rebuke. Here it is;

Phil,

I am not casting doubt on your integrity. I am not challenging the fact that these 'journals' have been under lock and key for 80 years. I am not even questioning the role of Ian Scott-Taylor, although he is not so far coming out of all this very well.

I actually hope that it is all true, and that Alister MacKenzie really was a friend and confidant of Old Tom Morris (and Tillinghust for that matter) as early as 1901. It would put a different perspective on his whole subsequent career.  

Currently however, I remain sceptical and suspect that Dr David Scott-Taylor was probably a fantasist who concocted these 'journals' in later life in the light of subsequent events as an exercise in self-aggrandizement.

If further evidence proves that I am wrong and that these journals were actually written contemporaneously I will give my heartfelt apologies to all concerned.

I will also be very pleased for a major discovery will have been made.


These words reflect exactly my genuine feelings and thoughts at the time I wrote them as an aficionado of Alister MacKenzie. There were no 'tactics' involved, and I am not even sure that my theory regarding David Scott-Taylor could be described as a 'harsh accusation'.

Something about the whole story just 'smelled wrong' to me.

Since then of course, evidence has been mounting that the journals were not written by David Scott-Taylor at all. I would contend that that evidence is now approaching the point of being compelling.

The sketches?  I've no idea.  One has to ask however; if the sketches are genuine why would anyone bother constructing the journals as a back-story?


PS Reddish Vale is looking great - no small thanks to you!  When are you coming back to take a look?
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 07:00:31 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Tillinghast treasures seen here and now for the first time
« Reply #79 on: August 02, 2014, 08:54:16 AM »


The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Tillinghast treasures seen here and now for the first time
« Reply #80 on: August 02, 2014, 09:29:31 AM »


« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 09:37:22 AM by Martin Bonnar »
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Tillinghast treasures seen here and now for the first time
« Reply #81 on: August 02, 2014, 10:17:17 AM »
Thank you Mr Bonnar. An interesting find.

I spent a bit of time last night looking at the Road Hole sketch, trying to make sense of it. Like "Tilly's" sketch of the Redan, there is no scale or sizes given yet when you compare it to other scaled plans or aerial photos that are in Scott Macpherson's book (which by the way is a remarkably definitive account of the evolution of golf at St Andrews) the relative sizes of the stretches of wall skirting the Road Hole are remarkably in proportion. As are the shape of the green, bunkers etc. Furthermore the angles where the wall changes direction is absolutely spot on.

Let me suggest that the chances of anyone being able to guestimate that on site without doing a detailed survey are close to zero. Was Tilly equipped to do a detailed survey ? Clearly he was a multi-talented individual but was surveying one of his skills back in 1901 ? If he was so equipped and did carry out a detailed survey then why is the sketch so lacking in detail, and more crucially why aren't there any sizes or a scale ?

I'd suggest that the sketch was based on an existing plan. The question is what plan and when was it produced ?

Niall

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Tillinghast treasures seen here and now for the first time
« Reply #82 on: August 02, 2014, 10:26:59 AM »
When I was first alerted to the amazing similarity between the signatures of Ian Scott-Taylor and his grandfather I laughed it off. Indeed my post comparing them was meant as a joke. How could anyone be so stupid as to forge his grandfather's signature by simply signing his own but changing the forename?

Martin's even more similar version is beginning to make wonder, though!

Would there be in existence a copy of Dr Scott-Taylor's signature from a totally independent source? 

That's your homework for the weekend, boys...   ;)

« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 10:34:48 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Tommy Naccarato

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Tillinghast treasures seen here and now for the first time
« Reply #83 on: August 02, 2014, 10:33:45 AM »
Game Point Bonnar!


Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Tillinghast treasures seen here and now for the first time
« Reply #84 on: August 02, 2014, 10:38:41 AM »
In Phil's essay, he tells us that Scott-Taylor was called on to attend Queen Victoria in her final illness:

"A call went out for a physician from one of the ships to be sent to Osborne House immediately, for a physician in the Royal Navy automatically had the standing to examine the Queen. And so, without being told why or who he was going to see, Lt. David Scott-Taylor was shuttled over and immediately shown to the Queen’s chambers. He would attend the Queen while awaiting the arrival of her physician’s. The Queen quietly died in her sleep on January 22nd."

However, as this diagram makes clear, it is impossible for Scott-Taylor to have been both a medical officer and a lieutenant in the Royal Navy in 1901. Medical officers did not achieve fully commissioned rank until 1918.

http://www.pdavis.nl/Ranks.htm#RAN
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Tommy Naccarato

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Tillinghast treasures seen here and now for the first time
« Reply #85 on: August 02, 2014, 10:47:25 AM »
Game Bonnar/Lawrence/Moriarity/Carlton?

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Tillinghast treasures seen here and now for the first time
« Reply #86 on: August 02, 2014, 10:50:26 AM »
Page 210 of this edition of the Glasgow Medical Journal shows Scott-Taylor passing the final examinations of the Edinburgh College of Surgeons in January 1916.

https://archive.org/stream/glasgowmedicaljo85glas#page/210/mode/2up

The University of Edinburgh has an online database of matriculated students for the period in question. As yet, and despite extensive searching, I have not been able to find Scott-Taylor in this database.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Tillinghast treasures seen here and now for the first time
« Reply #87 on: August 02, 2014, 11:14:35 AM »
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1368858/?ref_=filmo_li_tt

How about our own remake of this movie?  Watch the trailer for great golf action.  ::) ;) ;D   Gib?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tommy Naccarato

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Tillinghast treasures seen here and now for the first time
« Reply #88 on: August 02, 2014, 11:17:45 AM »
This is from Max's Lounge member Alexy who noticed something similar about the two drawings.


Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Tillinghast treasures seen here and now for the first time
« Reply #89 on: August 02, 2014, 11:25:24 AM »
A few other things to note about the Road Hole sketch;

1 - the sketch shows a wall, presumably a boundary wall, running down the side of the 16th from behind the 17th tee. According to Scott MacPherson's book there was no wall and never had been a wall.

2 - the sketch shows two lines of play,presumably for the tiger and for the rabbit. Given there are no sizes or scales it is a bit of a guestimate to determine the length of shots but I'd suggest the tiger drive looks as though its well over 200 yards while the rabbits drive is just under. Both have taken a line that cuts over the railway yards to some extent. When this sketch was supposed to have been produced, the gutty ball was still be used with the Haskell coming in in 1902. A newspaper snippet from that time suggests that a good drive went c.170 yards, while JH Taylor who had won the Open at St Andrews in 1900 had an average drive of 180 yards while FG Tait the recently killed St Andrews golfer and one of the longest golfers of his day had an average of 200 yards.

3 - J.O.F.Morris, a son of Old Tom and himself a professional golfer, wrote a description of St Andrews for the Golfers Handbook in 1887/1888 in which he described the 17th hole. He described the "narrow course" as being a drive between the corner of the wall and the bunker while stating there was plenty of room to go left of the bunker. Clearly that area was in play at the time of the gutty yet it isn't represented by this sketch.

4 - fairway line - with reference to the RSG plan, as a matter of fact it doesn't actually show a fairway line. What it shows is the rough differentiated from the fairway by markings presumably meant to represent long grass. Interestingly it doesn't show defined greens or tees but then they may have been defined by a colour wash that has since faded. The important thing is that even Paterson in his detailed sketch of the Road Hole (1911 or 1912) didn't define the fairway and indeed neither did MacKenzie in his 1924 plan.

I had intended to write something up in a bit more detail but in all honesty it hardly seems worth it with now with the more recent disclosures. Are we maybe now approaching the end game as Tommy suggests ?

Niall

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Tillinghast treasures seen here and now for the first time
« Reply #90 on: August 02, 2014, 11:26:46 AM »
Tommy

That was the point I was making in my earlier post.

Niall

Tommy Naccarato

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Tillinghast treasures seen here and now for the first time
« Reply #91 on: August 02, 2014, 11:33:34 AM »
Niall, Yes, absolutely!  Its just that I'm getting so many emails from people telling me of things that they've noticed, its hard to keep remembering them all! ;)

Yes, I think its Game, Set and Match..... That is unless Phil or the seemingly missing IS-T have something more the Solicitor's want to release....

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Tillinghast treasures seen here and now for the first time
« Reply #92 on: August 02, 2014, 11:35:19 AM »
Might I ask a stupid question? As a member of this discussion group, why hasn't Ian Scott-Taylor weighed in? I have a feeling I know why at this point but today's posts beg for a response from Ian, especially Martin's posting of the similar signatures.

Phil Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Tillinghast treasures seen here and now for the first time
« Reply #93 on: August 02, 2014, 11:40:59 AM »
My apologies to all for not being around for all of the fun yesterday, I was unable to because of an urgent private matter.

I will be answering questions put on here already and more that I am sure will be coming my way. I will provide as much information that I can that does not impact on the family’s right to privacy, and despite the near rabid show of personal entitlement they do have one, and that I am legally allowed to by law as there are probate issue’s involved due to the recent passing of Ian’s mother.

If I cite that as a reason I’m quite certain that I will be vilified by some and that it will be viewed as hiding, or worse yet, participating in a scam and cover-up of the worst sort! Anyone who believes that doesn’t know me and is free to believe as they wish and say it.

In my opinion, regardless of the specific attack on what was written, this all boils down to a single two-part issue. Were the journals written by David-Scott Taylor during his lifetime and how can that be proved?

I will primarily be addressing that question today.

Below I’m going to be directly quoting from letters sent by the family attorneys to separate members of the Scott-Taylor family. I will NOT be publishing the letters. These are private legal documents and will remain such. How then can I have any belief that a single person would accept them at my word? Because I’ve sent photographic copies of the actual letters to Ran Morrissett. I would find it beyond the realm of any possibility that someone on this site would question his veracity and honor if he were to say that what I’ve referenced and quoted from in them is not true. He has the freedom to comment or not on them and anything written here about them and say his honest opinion as to what I’ve written.

The first letter is dated 15 December, 1998. It was addressed to Ian Scott-Taylor. It references an: ADDENDUM TO WILL.
      “It was nice to see you and your father again last Friday and I do hope that I can assist you in being able to amend the above matter as quickly as possible. As agreed, you and your father have set out in the amendment that the items now in our possession legally are yours in the will.
      “The items discussed at our last meeting include the
1.   Items from your grand father. The gand fathers diaries and sundry items.
3.   Various drawings.”

The above referenced letter is part of the legal papers filed in two separate estate probate actions (both Ian’s father & mother). This makes it unchallengeable for its veracity.

Note the direct reference to the diaries and drawings. Also, for those who have questioned their being kept at the various law offices through the years, note that it clearly states that they are currently in their possession. This is at a time when all parties are alive, thus showing that the family was entrusting them to the care of the attorneys.

The second letter is dated  7 September 1965. It was addressed to “David Scott-Taylor,” Ian’s father:
      “Further to our last meeting… I can confirm that the will of your mother Mrs. Ethel Scott-Taylor [David Scott-Taylor’s wife and widow]… has been ratified and the documents are ready for you to sign and pick up.
      “I can also confirm the items in the office, will remain here in our care under your instructions. Your father’s effects together with a set of diaries,a nd set of drawings.”
       
This above referenced letter is also part of the legal filings in the probate of the estate of Ian’s grandmother and therefor unchallengeable for its veracity.

Once again note the direct reference to the diaries and drawings. Again the direct reference that drawings and journals have been in their possession and that they will “remain here” per the direct instructions of Ian’s father.

For those who have been entertaining the bizarre notion that Ian Scott-Taylor manufactured or forged these, this uncontestable proof that they existed in 1965 also uncontestably proves that the FOUR YEAR OLD Ian Scott-Taylor could not have done that!

Now we add in the aphidavit that is part of the documents in the current probate and that Ran has already attested to its veracity. That is, that the journals of Dr. David Scott-Taylor, along with the drawings, have been in the hands of the various solicitors for the family since 1933.

These are all uncontestable legal documents as they have already been accepted as such by the probate action!

What does that mean in this “debate” that has been waged? It disproves every negative thing said.

First, as they have been in the solicitor’s hands since the death of Dr. David Scott-Taylor, and he died UNEXPECTEDLY of a massive stroke, it again proves that these were the sole product of HIS hand and no others! It is time for this attack on the veracity and honor of Ian Scott-Taylor to stop! Regardless of whether one can’t find an explanation for why he and his family have been silent about these sketches and the items in their collection for all these years, the fact is that they have. Their reasons for doing so are theirs alone, as is their reasons for allowing these to come to the light of day now. Those reasons, all of which I know, I can attest to as being honorable ones.

Secondly, that those who are so freely arguing that the journals had to be written by a “modern hand” based on the “history of idioms” as they know it are clearly WRONG. The phrases in question all pre-date 1933since that is when they were written.

Third, that the drawings mentioned in these journals must also be as presented. The peripheral stories contained within the journal pages, e.g. the mine disaster in Wales and the announcement of the French-Morocco treat the morning of July 20th are also unquestionably true. In fact, even the cricket match at Old Trofford that DS-T mentioned that Mackenzie would take Tilly to has now been verified as the account of the match can be found in the 26 July 1901 issue of the Sheffield Evening Telegraph. For those Cricketphiles amongst the group, this is what the brief article reported:
      “This match was commenced at Old Trofford this morning, there being no play yesterday. [Evidently they were rained out of the scheduled match.] The visitors had the same team as against Derbyshire, whilst Cuttell and Eccles re-appeared in the home side. Gloucester won the toss. The weather is somewhat threatening, but with the exception of three-quarters of an hour the rain held off. The downpour then was not very heavy, and play went on as usual after the luncheon interval.”

A good number of questions, both public and private, have argued against these drawings being real are based solely on the notion that the information presented in the journals presents a different picture of Alister MacKenzie than that of which they are aware. They cite such things as information found on the Mackenzie Society webpage and introductory information prefacing the incredible MacKenzie Timeline. They have even cited Tom Doak’s writings. As the information from the journals was not available to any and all when these were written what else would one expect to see written? Therefor that is again proof of nothing. I daresay that these would have been written differently if the information found in the Dr. David Scott-Taylor journals had been available to them.

There are two questions to which I will respond at this moment.

The first is David’s question regarding why I changed the wording in the second essay and removed the reference to the Score’s hotel letterhead. Of all people I would think that he would respect that I did it because I have yet to receive the copy of letter showing everything and so that is the sole reason I didn’t. If and when I do he’ll be among the first to know…

Second is the question as of David Lawrence as to how Dr. David Scott-Taylor could have gotten the rank of Lieutenant in the Royal Navy since, as he put it, “However, as this diagram makes clear, it is impossible for Scott-Taylor to have been both a medical officer and a lieutenant in the Royal Navy in 1901. Medical officers did not achieve fully commissioned rank until 1918.”

Instead of taking my words, let’s take those as found on the website of “The National Museum/Royal Navy” where they write:

Lieutenant
The rank of Lieutenant can be traced back to 1580 with the simple reason of being an understudy to the Captain in case of accident or illness, although they were not permanently established. After the restoration, Samuel Pepys introduced an examination to test the abilities of the rank and by doing so transformed their status from mere understudy to an actual job with particular duties attached. The senior lieutenant, known as the First Lieutenant and was responsible for the organisation of the ship and administration under the guidance of the Captain. This post eventually turned into the rank of Commander. He was responsible for maintaining discipline and navigation and with the junior lieutenants responsible for ensuring the crew carried out their duties. He was in charge of watches. Lieutenants received their commissions for particular ships and the position within the officer ranks. An officer was required to have at least six years service at sea before passing the examination for promotion to Lieutenant. It was possible for the officer to pass many years at this rank until the eventual distinction between Lieutenants of eight years service and the eventual establishment of the rank of Lieutenant-Commander."
"WARRANT OFFICERS
Warrant officers were the heads of specialist technical branches of the ship’s company and reported directly to the Captain. For administration they reported to the different boards which governed naval affairs such as the Navy Board, Victualling Board and Ordnance Board. They were usually examined professionally by a body other than the Admiralty and had usually served an apprenticeship. In the eighteenth century, there were two branches of Warrant Officer, those classed as sea officers, who has equal status as commissioned officers and could stand on the quarterdeck and those classed as inferior officers (keeping no accounts). Of the Warrant Officers, five were classed as standing officers, warranted to a ship for her lifetime whether in commission or not. When in reserve, they were borne on the Ordinary books of the dockyard and employed in maintenance of the ship. There was a change in the nineteenth century when some warrant ranks were transferred to commissioned rank and the branch of Engineers was introduced. It became necessary to distinguish between types of officers as to which ranks could command and those who could not – basically Military and Civil (equivalent to the modern Executive and Non-Executive officers). After 1847, only three warrant ranks remained."

"Surgeon
Surgeons were warranted to ships by the Navy Board. Their examining boards were conducted by various bodies including the Barber-Surgeons Company, Sick and Hurt Board, Transport Board and the Victualling Board up until 1832 when the Admiralty became responsible for their qualifications. They were the only medical officers on the ship and was assisted by one or more Surgeon’s Mates (inferior warrant officers). They had the right to walk the quarterdeck and became a fully commissioned rank in the nineteenth century. They were responsible for the sick and injured, performing surgical operations as necessary and dispensed medicine. They were required to keep a journal of treatment and advised the Captain on health matters."

Adam, you are mistaken. He was promoted to the rank of Lieutenant in the months following his care of the Queen and this is why I referred to him as such.

I will answer serious questions only and after seeing some of what has been posted, will not respond to mockery.


Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Tillinghast treasures seen here and now for the first time
« Reply #94 on: August 02, 2014, 11:46:19 AM »
No, you did not Phil. You referred to  'Lt. David-Scott-Taylor' being shuttled over to see the Queen.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Tillinghast treasures seen here and now for the first time
« Reply #95 on: August 02, 2014, 11:47:33 AM »
Furthermore, the existence of diaries and drawings does not necessarily correlate to THESE PARTICULAR diaries and drawings. I should have thought that would be obvious.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Phil Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Tillinghast treasures seen here and now for the first time
« Reply #96 on: August 02, 2014, 11:50:35 AM »
Eric,

Ian has not posted because I advised him NOT to. Consider the cruelty of the mockery being shown here. Tommy Naccarrato's post of the phony letter is an example of the worst of this and is disgusting. There is simply no call for that. No, it is far better that I answer questions in his place, especially because we are talking about MY WRITINGS and not his.

I just posted a long and serious response to the earlier questions. That is what this debate should be about and the way it should present itself.

Again, as the documents cited above have been legally accepted and can be trace the journals as existing back to 1933, the arguments as presented so far are simply incorrect.

Adam, when I wrote that I simply misspoke as I was well aware of his naval rank and have often referred to him as lieutenant in other discussions both private and public.

The more important point, which I note you ignored, is that there were Lieutenants in the Royal Navy in 1901 which is what you disagreed with in your earlier post.

Tommy Naccarato

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Tillinghast treasures seen here and now for the first time
« Reply #97 on: August 02, 2014, 11:52:06 AM »
Agree completely with Adam.

"Mockery?"  What year was that word invented?

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Tillinghast treasures seen here and now for the first time
« Reply #98 on: August 02, 2014, 11:52:46 AM »
Eric,

Ian has not posted because I advised him NOT to. Consider the cruelty of the mockery being shown here. Tommy Naccarrato's post of the phony letter is an example of the worst of this and is disgusting. There is simply no call for that. No, it is far better that I answer questions in his place, especially because we are talking about MY WRITINGS and not his.

I just posted a long and serious response to the earlier questions. That is what this debate should be about and the way it should present itself.

Again, as the documents cited above have been legally accepted and can be trace the journals as existing back to 1933, the arguments as presented so far are simply incorrect.

Adam, when I wrote that I simply misspoke as I was well aware of his naval rank and have often referred to him as lieutenant in other discussions both private and public.

The more important point, which I note you ignored, is that there were Lieutenants in the Royal Navy in 1901 which is what you disagreed with in your earlier post.

Phil, there have been lieutenants in the Royal Navy since time immemorial. But, as the chart I linked to earlier showed MEDICAL OFFICERS COULD NOT HOLD THAT RANK until 1918.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Phil Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Two Tillinghast treasures seen here and now for the first time
« Reply #99 on: August 02, 2014, 11:56:15 AM »
Eric,

That is a good point. What would correlate to them is the itemized list of the estate which will not be shared at this time. These do refer to the journals and drawings. Accept that or not...

Adam, again you miss the salient point, that a medical officer could become a Lieutenant if the promotion took them beyond the duties of a medical officer.