Regrassing or Reconstruction?

[Jim_Coleman]

    A quick question -  Did Lancaster and Philly Cricket re-grass their greens, or reconstruct them (presumably to USGA standards)?  Just curious.  I assume the cost difference is monumental.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jim, I don't know what they did, but yes, the cost difference can be from $1.25 SF to over $4-6 per SF, or even more for USGA greens.  On a 36 hole public course where we did one of each, both paid the owner back handsomely, with perhaps the lower cost re-grassing to get smoother greens paying off at a higher percentage rate.  So much for design quality....its all about the maintenance and putting surface......

[SL_Solow]

One note on regrassing; the EPA continues to suggest that Methyl Bromide use will be prohibited in the near future.  Absent Methyl Bromide, eradicating existing poa and its seeds becomes problematic unless and until treatments like PoaCure become available.  The new chemicals are likely to be quite expensive.  thus timing may be important.

[Adam Lawrence]

One note on regrassing; the EPA continues to suggest that Methyl Bromide use will be prohibited in the near future.  Absent Methyl Bromide, eradicating existing poa and its seeds becomes problematic unless and until treatments like PoaCure become available.  The new chemicals are likely to be quite expensive.  thus timing may be important.

MB has been banned in the EU for quite a while - as a result we rarely see the quick 'kill and regress' greens renovations that are fairly common in the States on this side of the pond.

[Anthony_Nysse]

    A quick question -  Did Lancaster and Philly Cricket re-grass their greens, or reconstruct them (presumably to USGA standards)?  Just curious.  I assume the cost difference is monumental.

Philly Cricket sodded their greens.

[Jim_Coleman]

Anthony:  I assume that means Cricket sodded its greens without reconstructing them, right?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jim,

Again, not specific to what Philly did, but its typical to remove existing turf, which usually removes at least a few inches of roots, etc. and they need to put that few inches of mix back in, perhaps rototilling together with the substrata if that isn't the same type of sand.

Tough question about what to do if they still had old push up soil greens.  When sodding greens, you typically try to find a grower with the same soil you have.  In many areas, a sod guy will do this for many clubs.  Short version - it can be a bit more complicated than just killing grass and laying sod.

Will be interesting to hear what they had/have.

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

Philly Cricket completely rebuilt the greens and then sodded them with washed sod

LCC gased and regrassed the greens almost ten years ago.  Since then they have had to reconstruct a few greens after floods washed them away.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Lancaster regrassed around 2000

They rebuilt them about 2 years ago but didn't shell them out completely. From what I know they removed 4" of rootzone and replaced it with a USGA mix and seeded. The sand layer was to help get water to the internal drainage quicker. They had a number of storms come through after they did they work and a few of the greens flooded during the grow in so needed to be done again.

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

Sounds like an interesting process at LCC.  After 14 years of all of these different projects maybe they just should have rebuilt them in the first place?    You said they have internal drainage, did they install XGD or similar when the regrassed in 2000?

[JNagle]

Confirming what Alan said, LCC did core out 4-6" of their greens mix and regrassed.  Over the years they have rebuilt the 12th and 13th greens.  The 6th green washed out two times during the most recent regrassing project.  In fact during one of the washouts the mix and previous years sub-grades were completely washed away so the green was essentially rebuilt.  There was also washout to the 7th green (if memory serves me right).  Landscapes Unlimited did a great job with the process and was very sensitive to the original contours of the greens.  We start a similar process with Landscapes in two weeks at the Davenport CC course.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Sounds like an interesting process at LCC.  After 14 years of all of these different projects maybe they just should have rebuilt them in the first place?    You said they have internal drainage, did they install XGD or similar when the regrassed in 2000?

Sean,
As far as I know they had installed XGD (or similar) over the years and it was working fine, the sand was just to improve it since they were doing the work anyway.

[Powell Arms]

Philly Cricket completely rebuilt the greens and then sodded them with washed sod

Correct. Philly Cricket had greens that had been untouched since the course opened in 1922.  The greens were striped down to the original green pads, lasered, and then build back up to USGA spec over those larger, original green pads, recreating the lasered contours of the pads in most cases.  About 12 months before the start of construction, Cricket had specifically planted acres of A1/A4 bent grass at a sod farm in the similar climate of southern New Jersey.  Greens were rebuilt 1 by 1.  It took about 1 day to lay the sod on a green.

[David Bartman]

One note on regrassing; the EPA continues to suggest that Methyl Bromide use will be prohibited in the near future.  Absent Methyl Bromide, eradicating existing poa and its seeds becomes problematic unless and until treatments like PoaCure become available.  The new chemicals are likely to be quite expensive.  thus timing may be important.

When you say that the new chemicals are likely to be quite expensive, what new chemicals are you referring to?  and what gives you an indication that they would be expensive?  and what do you consider expensive?  thanks in advance

[Anthony_Nysse]

One note on regrassing; the EPA continues to suggest that Methyl Bromide use will be prohibited in the near future.  Absent Methyl Bromide, eradicating existing poa and its seeds becomes problematic unless and until treatments like PoaCure become available.  The new chemicals are likely to be quite expensive.  thus timing may be important.

When you say that the new chemicals are likely to be quite expensive, what new chemicals are you referring to?  and what gives you an indication that they would be expensive?  and what do you consider expensive?  thanks in advance

PoaCure

[David Bartman]

One note on regrassing; the EPA continues to suggest that Methyl Bromide use will be prohibited in the near future.  Absent Methyl Bromide, eradicating existing poa and its seeds becomes problematic unless and until treatments like PoaCure become available.  The new chemicals are likely to be quite expensive.  thus timing may be important.

When you say that the new chemicals are likely to be quite expensive, what new chemicals are you referring to?  and what gives you an indication that they would be expensive?  and what do you consider expensive?  thanks in advance

PoaCure

Its the expensive part I was curious about, I know all about PoaCure and given the fact that they haven't yet to begin to determine pricing given that the EUP hasn't been approved, I wanted to know , how or what he had heard in regards to it being "expensive"

[SL_Solow]

I will see if I can get numbers but the folks who have done the field testing have commented that it will be very costly

[David Bartman]

I will see if I can get numbers but the folks who have done the field testing have commented that it will be very costly

I can assure you that the price hasn't even been determined at this point in time

[Aaron McMaster]

I will see if I can get numbers but the folks who have done the field testing have commented that it will be very costly

I can assure you that the price hasn't even been determined at this point in time

It's still around two years away from even being available let alone somebody knowing what the exact price point will be.  

However, David I do think he was referring to any chemicals that could replace Mythel Bromide as a soil sterlizaion product being expensive.  Right now we only have Basamid as an alternative or complete core out reconstruction.  Basamid is cheaper but IMO it carrys more risk, since it must be kept at field capacity and runoff is a real threat, that stuff gets into any water with fish they have an ugly situation on their hands.

[David Bartman]

I will see if I can get numbers but the folks who have done the field testing have commented that it will be very costly

I can assure you that the price hasn't even been determined at this point in time

It's still around two years away from even being available let alone somebody knowing what the exact price point will be.  

However, David I do think he was referring to any chemicals that could replace Mythel Bromide as a soil sterlizaion product being expensive.  Right now we only have Basamid as an alternative or complete core out reconstruction.  Basamid is cheaper but IMO it carrys more risk, since it must be kept at field capacity and runoff is a real threat, that stuff gets into any water with fish they have an ugly situation on their hands.

No doubt replacing Mythel Bromide will be interesting to say the least.  You are correct about PoaCure with regard to both its timing to the market as well as the cost. which is TBD. 

[Sean McCue]

PoaCure will cost $2500 per acre as a part of the the EUP. It is currently delayed and hopefully it is available this fall for further use.

[Aaron McMaster]

PoaCure will cost $2500 per acre as a part of the the EUP. It is currently delayed and hopefully it is available this fall for further use.

You might be right on cost for EUP,not arguing that but it better not be $2,500 after approval or he will wish he sold it to Sygenta cause it will be a giant sucking sound of that going down the tubes so far his business plan is terrible to say the least.

I know people who are being held up just to get EUP which is not even close to label use.  Sean if I can get this product from my local supplier by 2016 i'll buy you a beer at the national that February!!

It also hasn't been a pancea everywhere and I'm sure your aware it has killed grass.

[Sean McCue]

PoaCure will cost $2500 per acre as a part of the the EUP. It is currently delayed and hopefully it is available this fall for further use.

You might be right on cost for EUP,not arguing that but it better not be $2,500 after approval or he will wish he sold it to Sygenta cause it will be a giant sucking sound of that going down the tubes so far his business plan is terrible to say the least.

I know people who are being held up just to get EUP which is not even close to label use.  Sean if I can get this product from my local supplier by 2016 i'll buy you a beer at the national that February!!

It also hasn't been a pancea everywhere and I'm sure your aware it has killed grass.

Aaron,
For the high end clubs I don't see $2500 per acre as an issue to keep the greens clean especially when your only talking about treating 2.5-3.0 acres.
Yes I am aware that every product reacts differntly at each site and caution should be taken when applying new products. I for one can say that I have killed more than  my fair share of desired turf over the years in the quest for the latest Poa control. PoaCure for us has performed as advertised with no negative effects when following application timing and rate protocols. This will be an excellent tool for future use to control Poa, it is not a silver bullet and those who think it is are sadly mistaken.

[Aaron McMaster]

PoaCure will cost $2500 per acre as a part of the the EUP. It is currently delayed and hopefully it is available this fall for further use.

You might be right on cost for EUP,not arguing that but it better not be $2,500 after approval or he will wish he sold it to Sygenta cause it will be a giant sucking sound of that going down the tubes so far his business plan is terrible to say the least.

I know people who are being held up just to get EUP which is not even close to label use.  Sean if I can get this product from my local supplier by 2016 i'll buy you a beer at the national that February!!

It also hasn't been a pancea everywhere and I'm sure your aware it has killed grass.

Aaron,
For the high end clubs I don't see $2500 per acre as an issue to keep the greens clean especially when your only talking about treating 2.5-3.0 acres.
Yes I am aware that every product reacts differntly at each site and caution should be taken when applying new products. I for one can say that I have killed more than  my fair share of desired turf over the years in the quest for the latest Poa control. PoaCure for us has performed as advertised with no negative effects when following application timing and rate protocols. This will be an excellent tool for future use to control Poa, it is not a silver bullet and those who think it is are sadly mistaken.

Sean,

 I understand your point and certainly my club can more than afford the product on greens but that's a small market.  I think if he's going to recoup his investment and move the company forward he needs to find a price point that allows it to be cost effective on fairways.  If not I don't think he can sustain it in the market as most places can't afford it or have to much poa on greens to use it.  Fairways is an easy conversion both from a cost stand point and golfers will tolerate a quick fairway kill and regrass, it can be done very quickly with minimum pain.  That market is huge but not at $2,500 an acre.  All I know is I've heard a lot of wacky business ideas coming from them so I hope they figure it out and get it to market soon.

We are currently testing a new product from sipcam that is a combination of two fungicides already registered with excellent results on poa in not only bentgrass but Kentucky bluegrass as well.  They won't tell us what the two chemicals are yet but were liking what were seeing.  They  are also on year two of a trial with it at MSU with great results as well.

Glad to hear poacure is working well for you.  I've only observed it at North Shore in Chicago and the results are stunning to say the least. 

[Chris Hans]

While I was at Vesper Country Club, the membership chose to rebuild the greens to USGA spec and regrass with A1/A4.