[Michael Goldstein]

Aaron,

Mowing lines usually refers to the width of the fairway - not the stripes.

Sean is right: more width on the left would engage the intellect as the golfer makes a conscious decision to play towards the water. 

[Jay Flemma]

Fourteen at PGA Dye Course!

[Aaron McMaster]

Aaron,

Mowing lines usually refers to the width of the fairway - not the stripes.

Sean is right: more width on the left would engage the intellect as the golfer makes a conscious decision to play towards the water. 

Mike I'm well aware of termanology but Grant appeared to be using mowing lines as to the amount of striping in the photo.  However, mowing lines has nothing to do with how wide a fairway is but the shape of the fairway.....

At the time of the pic you really can't go further left unless you want to be in the fairway blocked by the ridiculous tree on the left.  The entire discussion was based on how bad the photo looked due to mower striping everywhere.

I have no issue with moving the fairway left and now that the tree is gone it can be done.  It's still not the correct position to approach the green as the entire thing moves left to right but that's a whole other topic.

[BCowan]

Aaron,

Mowing lines usually refers to the width of the fairway - not the stripes.

Sean is right: more width on the left would engage the intellect as the golfer makes a conscious decision to play towards the water.  

There is tons of width on the hole and it is a strategic/heroic hole.  Going by original routing the scale of the fairway does look to jet in some today vs original (it isn't a photo though) but shorter hitters can play up the left side of the fairway, no one is forced to carry the creek or shape it around it.  The hole has probably the most width of any hole on the course and the most options.  The original tee is 50 yards to the right of the one in the photo.  Aaron has played the course numerous times.  The photo everyone was commenting on didn't show the whole fairway (left side)


trees on the left are no longer there (photo by Mac from previous thread)

[Aaron McMaster]

Aaron,

Mowing lines usually refers to the width of the fairway - not the stripes.

Sean is right: more width on the left would engage the intellect as the golfer makes a conscious decision to play towards the water.  

There is tons of width on the hole and it is a strategic/heroic hole.  Going by original routing the scale of the fairway does look to jet in some today vs original (it isn't a photo though) but shorter hitters can play up the left side of the fairway, no one is forced to carry the creek or shape it around it.  The hole has probably the most width of any hole on the course and the most options.  The original tee is 50 yards to the right of the one in the photo.  Aaron has played the course numerous times.  The photo everyone was commenting on didn't show the whole fairway (left side)


trees on the left are no longer there (photo by Mac from previous thread)

Ben it is one of my favorites on the course for that reason.  You can bail left and avoid the water but the approach is very difficult or test the water right and have a shorter shot and better angle.  Greens is possible to severe with today's speeds but seems that's what their membership likes.

[Grant Saunders]

Aaron,

Mowing lines usually refers to the width of the fairway - not the stripes.

Sean is right: more width on the left would engage the intellect as the golfer makes a conscious decision to play towards the water. 

Mike I'm well aware of termanology but Grant appeared to be using mowing lines as to the amount of striping in the photo.  However, mowing lines has nothing to do with how wide a fairway is but the shape of the fairway.....

At the time of the pic you really can't go further left unless you want to be in the fairway blocked by the ridiculous tree on the left.  The entire discussion was based on how bad the photo looked due to mower striping everywhere.

Aaron

I referred to the mowing pattern not the mowing lines. Also, mowing lines are more than just the shape of a fairway.

[Grant Saunders]

Grant,

     Being that I didn't take the photo it looks as though it was taken in April.  Besides your focus on mowing lines, the hole is considered one of Ross's best.  Mowing lines are temporary and hyper-focusing on them is First World Problems imho.   

Ben

While im not a fan of the look in that photo, it is also the cost of what was required to achieve that look that troubles me. I see stripped rough which means the operator will be following a determined route and having to take enormous care where he travels and turns so as not to disrupt the pattern. Im not 100% sure but it appears that the fairway has been cut with a triplex machine such as a riding greensmower. The much narrower mowing width will require additional machines and labour to perform the task. I imagine that if they are using triplex mowers than they are more than likely using catchers also. Extra time for he task, more water and fert to replace the nutrients being removed. The approach is hand mown which is going to take longer to do and need more labour.

Regarding the mowing lines, the narrowness of the fairway in relation to the width of the corridor feels off in terms of scale. The tree removal shown in the second photo almost makes the scale seem further skewed. As Sean suggested, I would love to see the fairway cut flashed up over the left hand form. It would generate more feeling of width in relation to the landscape but also make the fairway look less like its just the flat bit of the hole mown short. To be honest,  when I look at that fairway, I am reminded of the 18th at Olympic for the US open a couple of years ago. Im sure the actual width at Olympic was much narrower but the sense of scale strikes me as similar.

The second pic reveals the tree lines to be fairly parallel defining the playing corridor. The arch and bend of the  fairway mowing lines work too much against this for my liking. The fairway appears to narrow up greatly before disappearing over the hill at the point where it switches back. It then continues up to the green which is actually wider than the fairway itself and circles out evenly around the putting surface. The result it what I like to think of as the classic "lollipop" effect of a narrow straight line with a circle on the end.

[Aaron McMaster]

Aaron,

Mowing lines usually refers to the width of the fairway - not the stripes.

Sean is right: more width on the left would engage the intellect as the golfer makes a conscious decision to play towards the water.  

Mike I'm well aware of termanology but Grant appeared to be using mowing lines as to the amount of striping in the photo.  However, mowing lines has nothing to do with how wide a fairway is but the shape of the fairway.....

At the time of the pic you really can't go further left unless you want to be in the fairway blocked by the ridiculous tree on the left.  The entire discussion was based on how bad the photo looked due to mower striping everywhere.

Aaron

I referred to the mowing pattern not the mowing lines. Also, mowing lines are more than just the shape of a fairway

Uh explain how that's possible it??  Mowing patterns or striping are both the same, its how a mower is being driven over the turf it's cutting.  If your referring to the layout of the fairway or shape or contour that would be a mowing line, nothing to do with the width of a fairway.

[Grant Saunders]

Aaron

Mowing lines is probably a topic worthy of its own thread but I will give this a shot:

A mowing line is the visible differentiation between heights of cut. This occurs from green to collars/surrounds, collars/surrounds to fairway or rough, fairways to semi rough and semi rough either a higher cut of rough or unmown rough. This differentiation helps to define an area and indicate its primary use for play.

While these lines are utilised to highlight the different areas of play, they can also be used for other purposes. Contrast can be achieved between grass types and textures where different cutting can heights highlight or blur colour differences and density. Width and controlled use of widening or narrowing areas can be employed to reduce the parallel nature of some paying corridors by creating variety and depth. Also, the enhancing of certain contours to encourage or discourage their influence on play. Deliberate use of angles and lines to draw the eye towards a certain point or feature or draw the eye purposely away from the target. The human eye tends to naturally pick the middle between 2 given lines as the primary focal point so you can use this in an effort to confuse or direct a player. Lines can be used to direct traffic to certain areas and concentrate wear or disperse it also as golfers seem to gravitate to walking on the shorter grass. Optical illusions can be created where lines disappear over hills and forms and then reappear in what seems to be a different place. I believe I read somewhere that Tom Doak uses this sometimes. They can compliment scale of the landscape or alternatively work against it (which is exactly what I think is happening in that photo).

All of these things I have listed are mostly independent of actual playing characteristics of a golf hole. Mowing lines of course have a great impact on playability but also involve much more. At then end of the day, its all grass and you can mow it shorter or longer and for the most part you can undo whatever changes you have made. 

I feel that mowing lines are one of the most underappreciated and misunderstood aspects of course maintenance and an area where most courses could be enhanced. The great thing is that it doesn’t cost much to change them.

[BCowan]

Grant,

     Being that I didn't take the photo it looks as though it was taken in April.  Besides your focus on mowing lines, the hole is considered one of Ross's best.  Mowing lines are temporary and hyper-focusing on them is First World Problems imho.  

Ben

While im not a fan of the look in that photo, it is also the cost of what was required to achieve that look that troubles me. I see stripped rough which means the operator will be following a determined route and having to take enormous care where he travels and turns so as not to disrupt the pattern. Im not 100% sure but it appears that the fairway has been cut with a triplex machine such as a riding greensmower. The much narrower mowing width will require additional machines and labour to perform the task. I imagine that if they are using triplex mowers than they are more than likely using catchers also. Extra time for he task, more water and fert to replace the nutrients being removed. The approach is hand mown which is going to take longer to do and need more labour.

Regarding the mowing lines, the narrowness of the fairway in relation to the width of the corridor feels off in terms of scale. The tree removal shown in the second photo almost makes the scale seem further skewed. As Sean suggested, I would love to see the fairway cut flashed up over the left hand form. It would generate more feeling of width in relation to the landscape but also make the fairway look less like its just the flat bit of the hole mown short. To be honest,  when I look at that fairway, I am reminded of the 18th at Olympic for the US open a couple of years ago. Im sure the actual width at Olympic was much narrower but the sense of scale strikes me as similar.

The second pic reveals the tree lines to be fairly parallel defining the playing corridor. The arch and bend of the  fairway mowing lines work too much against this for my liking. The fairway appears to narrow up greatly before disappearing over the hill at the point where it switches back. It then continues up to the green which is actually wider than the fairway itself and circles out evenly around the putting surface. The result it what I like to think of as the classic "lollipop" effect of a narrow straight line with a circle on the end.

Grant,

   First I'd like to say that I have great respect for you and the cost effective way you manage tracks in NZ.  2ndly, Aaron is one of the best keepers I've come across.  He understands mowing lines very well.  The course i grew up at was the lowest costing private course and they used to use catchers (anything else is just uncivilized)  .   I agree with the hand mown approach is unneeded especially with the shady green prior to tree removal.  Your analogy of comparing the scale to Olympia #18 I find way off.  For the record i haven't played Olympic.  The image (photo) makes the fairway on #7 look much smaller than it is.  The fairway mirrors the creek, and the right side is the ideal angle in which to come into the hole.  Hence there is an advantage in fading your tee shot and or taking on the creek.  The trees do not define the playing corridors.  I didn't care for either of the two trees by the way.  The tree right of the green was more of an issue imho due to it making conditions softer in front of the green, preventing a better ground game for the weaker players and or reducing options.  ''It then continues up to the green which is actually wider than the fairway itself and circles out evenly around the putting surface. The result it what I like to think of as the classic "lollipop" effect of a narrow straight line with a circle on the end''- That isn't so.  Grant, you need to play the course and stop drinking the Arble Kool-aid  

[John McCarthy]

18 at the Warren Course is a cape-ish par 4 with a pretty wild green and a kick plate on the left which is accessible only by a running shot...thanks Ken!

[hhuffines]

Charlotte CC 13?  Great hole and tough!

[Grant Saunders]

Grant,

     Being that I didn't take the photo it looks as though it was taken in April.  Besides your focus on mowing lines, the hole is considered one of Ross's best.  Mowing lines are temporary and hyper-focusing on them is First World Problems imho.  

Ben

While im not a fan of the look in that photo, it is also the cost of what was required to achieve that look that troubles me. I see stripped rough which means the operator will be following a determined route and having to take enormous care where he travels and turns so as not to disrupt the pattern. Im not 100% sure but it appears that the fairway has been cut with a triplex machine such as a riding greensmower. The much narrower mowing width will require additional machines and labour to perform the task. I imagine that if they are using triplex mowers than they are more than likely using catchers also. Extra time for he task, more water and fert to replace the nutrients being removed. The approach is hand mown which is going to take longer to do and need more labour.

Regarding the mowing lines, the narrowness of the fairway in relation to the width of the corridor feels off in terms of scale. The tree removal shown in the second photo almost makes the scale seem further skewed. As Sean suggested, I would love to see the fairway cut flashed up over the left hand form. It would generate more feeling of width in relation to the landscape but also make the fairway look less like its just the flat bit of the hole mown short. To be honest,  when I look at that fairway, I am reminded of the 18th at Olympic for the US open a couple of years ago. Im sure the actual width at Olympic was much narrower but the sense of scale strikes me as similar.

The second pic reveals the tree lines to be fairly parallel defining the playing corridor. The arch and bend of the  fairway mowing lines work too much against this for my liking. The fairway appears to narrow up greatly before disappearing over the hill at the point where it switches back. It then continues up to the green which is actually wider than the fairway itself and circles out evenly around the putting surface. The result it what I like to think of as the classic "lollipop" effect of a narrow straight line with a circle on the end.

Grant,

   First I'd like to say that I have great respect for you and the cost effective way you manage tracks in NZ.  2ndly, Aaron is one of the best keepers I've come across.  He understands mowing lines very well.  The course i grew up at was the lowest costing private course and they used to use catchers (anything else is just uncivilized)  .   I agree with the hand mown approach is unneeded especially with the shady green prior to tree removal.  Your analogy of comparing the scale to Olympia #18 I find way off.  For the record i haven't played Olympic.  The image (photo) makes the fairway on #7 look much smaller than it is.  The fairway mirrors the creek, and the right side is the ideal angle in which to come into the hole.  Hence there is an advantage in fading your tee shot and or taking on the creek.  The trees do not define the playing corridors.  I didn't care for either of the two trees by the way.  The tree right of the green was more of an issue imho due to it making conditions softer in front of the green, preventing a better ground game for the weaker players and or reducing options.  ''It then continues up to the green which is actually wider than the fairway itself and circles out evenly around the putting surface. The result it what I like to think of as the classic "lollipop" effect of a narrow straight line with a circle on the end''- That isn't so.  Grant, you need to play the course and stop drinking the Arble Kool-aid  

Ben

I am just throwing out a bit of frank commentary based off a photo that was posted. Of course I would love to play the course to judge it firsthand  (Im totally open to the idea of anyone keen to fully sponsor such an education trip). If I didn’t pass the occasional comment on photos on here I would be pretty limited to what topics I could actually participate in.

I don’t know Aaron and will take your word for it regarding his turf management abilities. He has however clearly gotten confused as to my original post where I reference mowing patterns not lines.

I still stand by my views that based on those pictures, I feel that hole is being done a disservice both in terms of mowing lines and patterns.

I also had to do a search on Kool Aid as I have heard of it but never really known what it was. Flavours such as Pink Lemonade, Cherry, and Sharkleberry Fin sound somewhat repulsive. The mental image I now have of Sean Arble mixing up a batch of the suggestively titled Man-o-Mangoberry may cause issues when sleep is required.

[Aaron McMaster]

Grant,

     Being that I didn't take the photo it looks as though it was taken in April.  Besides your focus on mowing lines, the hole is considered one of Ross's best.  Mowing lines are temporary and hyper-focusing on them is First World Problems imho.  

Ben

While im not a fan of the look in that photo, it is also the cost of what was required to achieve that look that troubles me. I see stripped rough which means the operator will be following a determined route and having to take enormous care where he travels and turns so as not to disrupt the pattern. Im not 100% sure but it appears that the fairway has been cut with a triplex machine such as a riding greensmower. The much narrower mowing width will require additional machines and labour to perform the task. I imagine that if they are using triplex mowers than they are more than likely using catchers also. Extra time for he task, more water and fert to replace the nutrients being removed. The approach is hand mown which is going to take longer to do and need more labour.

Regarding the mowing lines, the narrowness of the fairway in relation to the width of the corridor feels off in terms of scale. The tree removal shown in the second photo almost makes the scale seem further skewed. As Sean suggested, I would love to see the fairway cut flashed up over the left hand form. It would generate more feeling of width in relation to the landscape but also make the fairway look less like its just the flat bit of the hole mown short. To be honest,  when I look at that fairway, I am reminded of the 18th at Olympic for the US open a couple of years ago. Im sure the actual width at Olympic was much narrower but the sense of scale strikes me as similar.

The second pic reveals the tree lines to be fairly parallel defining the playing corridor. The arch and bend of the  fairway mowing lines work too much against this for my liking. The fairway appears to narrow up greatly before disappearing over the hill at the point where it switches back. It then continues up to the green which is actually wider than the fairway itself and circles out evenly around the putting surface. The result it what I like to think of as the classic "lollipop" effect of a narrow straight line with a circle on the end.

Grant,

   First I'd like to say that I have great respect for you and the cost effective way you manage tracks in NZ.  2ndly, Aaron is one of the best keepers I've come across.  He understands mowing lines very well.  The course i grew up at was the lowest costing private course and they used to use catchers (anything else is just uncivilized)  .   I agree with the hand mown approach is unneeded especially with the shady green prior to tree removal.  Your analogy of comparing the scale to Olympia #18 I find way off.  For the record i haven't played Olympic.  The image (photo) makes the fairway on #7 look much smaller than it is.  The fairway mirrors the creek, and the right side is the ideal angle in which to come into the hole.  Hence there is an advantage in fading your tee shot and or taking on the creek.  The trees do not define the playing corridors.  I didn't care for either of the two trees by the way.  The tree right of the green was more of an issue imho due to it making conditions softer in front of the green, preventing a better ground game for the weaker players and or reducing options.  ''It then continues up to the green which is actually wider than the fairway itself and circles out evenly around the putting surface. The result it what I like to think of as the classic "lollipop" effect of a narrow straight line with a circle on the end''- That isn't so.  Grant, you need to play the course and stop drinking the Arble Kool-aid  

Ben

I am just throwing out a bit of frank commentary based off a photo that was posted. Of course I would love to play the course to judge it firsthand  (Im totally open to the idea of anyone keen to fully sponsor such an education trip). If I didn’t pass the occasional comment on photos on here I would be pretty limited to what topics I could actually participate in.

I don’t know Aaron and will take your word for it regarding his turf management abilities. He has however clearly gotten confused as to my original post where I reference mowing patterns not lines.

I still stand by my views that based on those pictures, I feel that hole is being done a disservice both in terms of mowing lines and patterns.

I also had to do a search on Kool Aid as I have heard of it but never really known what it was. Flavours such as Pink Lemonade, Cherry, and Sharkleberry Fin sound somewhat repulsive. The mental image I now have of Sean Arble mixing up a batch of the suggestively titled Man-o-Mangoberry may cause issues when sleep is required.

Grant I did confuse your original post on mowing lines.  This is how we break this down here as I've been told your in NZ.  If I refer to how a fairway is cut (half/half or checkered as examples) it would be mowing pattern or striping.  If I want to discuss the form it would be the mow line, not mowing lines since there is only one fairway edge not multiple and there are certainly multiple mowing lines or striping in the photo.  We tend to use contour to designate how a fairways mow line appears.  Considering this is the defintion of contour...."an outline, especially one representing or bounding the shape or form of something".  I think that term is less confusion but overall we're prolly talking about the same thing.  No worries.

[Grant Saunders]

Aaron

Fair enough, we'll chalk it up to a lingo thing.

I once tried to discuss healing time after verticutting with an American and it was pretty frustrating for a while. It turned out that what we refer to as verticutting is somewhat different and considered a scarifying as opposed to a grooming practice.

[Sean_A]

Grant,

     Being that I didn't take the photo it looks as though it was taken in April.  Besides your focus on mowing lines, the hole is considered one of Ross's best.  Mowing lines are temporary and hyper-focusing on them is First World Problems imho.  

Ben

While im not a fan of the look in that photo, it is also the cost of what was required to achieve that look that troubles me. I see stripped rough which means the operator will be following a determined route and having to take enormous care where he travels and turns so as not to disrupt the pattern. Im not 100% sure but it appears that the fairway has been cut with a triplex machine such as a riding greensmower. The much narrower mowing width will require additional machines and labour to perform the task. I imagine that if they are using triplex mowers than they are more than likely using catchers also. Extra time for he task, more water and fert to replace the nutrients being removed. The approach is hand mown which is going to take longer to do and need more labour.

Regarding the mowing lines, the narrowness of the fairway in relation to the width of the corridor feels off in terms of scale. The tree removal shown in the second photo almost makes the scale seem further skewed. As Sean suggested, I would love to see the fairway cut flashed up over the left hand form. It would generate more feeling of width in relation to the landscape but also make the fairway look less like its just the flat bit of the hole mown short. To be honest,  when I look at that fairway, I am reminded of the 18th at Olympic for the US open a couple of years ago. Im sure the actual width at Olympic was much narrower but the sense of scale strikes me as similar.

The second pic reveals the tree lines to be fairly parallel defining the playing corridor. The arch and bend of the  fairway mowing lines work too much against this for my liking. The fairway appears to narrow up greatly before disappearing over the hill at the point where it switches back. It then continues up to the green which is actually wider than the fairway itself and circles out evenly around the putting surface. The result it what I like to think of as the classic "lollipop" effect of a narrow straight line with a circle on the end.

Grant,

   First I'd like to say that I have great respect for you and the cost effective way you manage tracks in NZ.  2ndly, Aaron is one of the best keepers I've come across.  He understands mowing lines very well.  The course i grew up at was the lowest costing private course and they used to use catchers (anything else is just uncivilized)  .   I agree with the hand mown approach is unneeded especially with the shady green prior to tree removal.  Your analogy of comparing the scale to Olympia #18 I find way off.  For the record i haven't played Olympic.  The image (photo) makes the fairway on #7 look much smaller than it is.  The fairway mirrors the creek, and the right side is the ideal angle in which to come into the hole.  Hence there is an advantage in fading your tee shot and or taking on the creek.  The trees do not define the playing corridors.  I didn't care for either of the two trees by the way.  The tree right of the green was more of an issue imho due to it making conditions softer in front of the green, preventing a better ground game for the weaker players and or reducing options.  ''It then continues up to the green which is actually wider than the fairway itself and circles out evenly around the putting surface. The result it what I like to think of as the classic "lollipop" effect of a narrow straight line with a circle on the end''- That isn't so.  Grant, you need to play the course and stop drinking the Arble Kool-aid  

Perhaps Kool Aid was an Ohio thing - never could stand the stuff.  Ben, you are clearly emotionally tied to the this course and thats fine.  Try your best to step back and look objectively at the photo.  Do you not think it very odd that such a huge percentage of the corridor is rough?  Do you not think it strange that two patterns of mowing clash and interfer with the visuals to the green?  I realize many think this is small beer stuff, but if clubs are going to spend substantial amounts of money to present a product, they may as well get it right.  This example is so far out there that most anybody who gave it a moment's thought would have to question the presentation.

Ciao

[Ari Techner]

The 10th hole at Franklin Hills is Franklin, MI has no bunkers anywhere and is a fantastic hole.  It basically has very little to no elevation change from tee to green and is a very tough par at 430y from the back tee.  The fairway has very good movement to it and the green is very tough while not being overly penal.   It is wide open in front with a pronounced back to front tilt and a very tough fall away section on the right side.  It is a slight dogleg left and the right rough has some Donald Ross built little mounds that flank the fairway.  An excellent hole and always a good par even for the scratch player.   

[Niall C]

There are plenty of quality bunkerless par 4s, but how many are there that don't use trees, elevation or "depressions that may as well be bunkers"?  That would be a much smaller number, and I don't think I've seen any that qualify here that I'm familiar with other than Foxy.

So Doug, what you are basically saying is bunkerless par 4's that don't use any features other than plateau greens and half alpinised fairway ?

Niall

[Doug Siebert]

There are plenty of quality bunkerless par 4s, but how many are there that don't use trees, elevation or "depressions that may as well be bunkers"?  That would be a much smaller number, and I don't think I've seen any that qualify here that I'm familiar with other than Foxy.

So Doug, what you are basically saying is bunkerless par 4's that don't use any features other than plateau greens and half alpinised fairway ?

Niall

I was thinking of elevation not only in terms of plateau greens, but even moreso in elevation changes for the hole.  A strongly uphill par 4 with a skyline green, for example, throws people off even with distance measuring equipment because they're playing off an uphill lie that affects the trajectory of their shot, are prone to overestimate a following wind or underestimate a headwind, are less certain of their shot because they're unable to see much/any of the green surface, and so on.  There's enough going on that bunkers are unnecessary.

The depressions I was talking about are basically grass bunkers.  I suppose one can debate whether it is a "par 4 without bunkers" if it has grass bunkers, but people usually use the term "bunker" to refer to a sand filled hazard.  Typically when I see them in a fairway they're filled with a rough, and I think that makes for a more difficult approach for better players than an actual bunker would (unless the approach is long and the lip is high)  While most bogey players are deathly afraid of the sand, and are more than happy to land in a rough filled "bunker" instead.  I don't know why we don't see more of them - maintenance is easier, and they tip the balance of the game a bit towards worse golfers at the expense of better golfers.  Good golfers have enough going for them, there should be more features that test their game rather than those that test the games of poor players but are hardly noticed by good players.

Even if the grass bunker is simply a bunker like depression that is mown normally, it can be more of a hazard for good players.  If balls don't always roll to the bottom you can get some really funny lies, and if balls do roll to the bottom the odds are good you'll be playing out of a divot (or at least it'll worry the better player he might so he'll steer clear of such a grass bunker/depression perhaps even moreso than a sand bunker)

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